Faith and mortal sin

[Quatsch]

Hi all, after a recent string of conversations with my best friend (who is very evangelical) I came up with this question. For simplicity I am going to pose it as a hypothetical situation just because I think it will be clearer that way.

I was initially going to post the title of this thread as “No faith, dead faith, and mortal sin,” but I’m not sure if that is the right way to look at it. Anyway…onto the scenario:

Consider two people, one is baptized (Bob) and one is not (Nate). We could also say that Bob has faith while Nate does not (I guess that would be a more evangelical way of phrasing it). What is different in Bob when he commits a mortal sin as opposed to Nate? I know that mortal sin destroys charity in the heart, but what does Bob have that Nate doesn’t that drives him to repent and seek confession?

I have thought about this, but I don’t really know where to start. Mortal sin separates us from God, yet we are still pained by our sin and will (hopefully) repent and turn back to God. In the case of habitual mortal sin, it is possible to go into and out of a state of grace over and over. In evangelical lingo, my friend would term this as being saved and then losing salvation over and over (which he says is not possible…but that is not the subject of this thread). So how does this jive with the Scripture passages that tell us we are a new creation and no longer slaves to sin?

I don’t think my question is very clear…but any answers will be appreciated and I will happily try to answer follow up questions about my question.

Blessed Advent to everyone

-Q

 

[newyorkcatholic]

Jesus died once to save all. This offer of salvation, the work of Our Lord on the Cross, does not come and go, does not change.

However, we can accept and reject this offer as we have free will. Mortal sin willingly rejects this offer of salvation. We can change our mind (Prodigal Son) and we can do it many times (seventy times seven).

It might seem “silly” to be able to sin, then repent, then sin, then repent, though would say it’s not “silly” it’s evidence of our fallen nature and God’s mercy.

What’s really silly is saying you can accept Jesus, be saved, and then committ murder and still be saved! Some evangelicals get around this by saying “that person was never saved in the first place” … but we all know extremely committed Christians who then do horrible things. We have done bad things. So then we end up never knowing if we are really saved, always doubting the authenticity of our acceptance of Jesus … what a way to live! I much prefer to go to Confession, trusting in God’s Mercy instead of my own convictions.

About Bob and Nate: Bob has an obvious advantage. He will always be baptized – if he sins, he still has the seal of baptism, it is just rent from his mortal sin. If he goes to Hell, he will actually take the seal of baptism with him into Hell, as the seal is indelible. But baptism also gives him graces to repent and go to Confession.

The Church does not exclude Nate from salvation, but we don’t know exactly how it would happen as this is outside of the Church’s clearest mandate. We leave that up to the mercy of God if he dies without baptism. The best thing the Church can do for Nate is offer him what we know, from God’s promise, to be for his salvation: repent and be baptised!

 

[06convert]

Consider two people, one is baptized (Bob) and one is not (Nate). We could also say that Bob has faith while Nate does not (I guess that would be a more evangelical way of phrasing it). What is different in Bob when he commits a mortal sin as opposed to Nate? I know that mortal sin destroys charity in the heart, but what does Bob have that Nate doesn’t that drives him to repent and seek confession?

Bob has grace. A gift from God. This grace is essential for his salvation. In baptism he was freed from original sin and thus from spiritual death. However, like any gift, grace can be rejected or abused. When we commit mortal sin we remove our grace. When we confess the grace comes back. Next, like anything that we have and cherish, grace is something that we miss when it’s gone. When we commit mortal sin the grace goes away and we feel empty until we confess and restore it. This what Bob has that Nate doesn’t. Nate didn’t have grace it in the first place, so although he might be empty inside he doesn’t miss it like Bob does. You miss something more once you’ve had it than you do if you never had it at all.

Mortal sin separates us from God, yet we are still pained by our sin and will (hopefully) repent and turn back to God.

Mortal sin is like cancer tumor. Confession is like surgery to remove it. After surgery, the cancer may be gone, but we still feel pain during recovery. After the pain is gone, there is still a scar that will always remain. This scar is the lingering effect that sin has on us.

In the case of habitual mortal sin, it is possible to go into and out of a state of grace over and over. In evangelical lingo, my friend would term this as being saved and then losing salvation over and over (which he says is not possible…but that is not the subject of this thread).

From Pillar of Fire Pillar of Truth:

**Are You Guaranteed Heaven? **
Some people promote an especially attractive idea: All true Christians, regardless of how they live, have an absolute assurance of salvation, once they accept Jesus into their hearts as “their personal Lord and Savior.” The problem is that this belief is contrary to the Bible and constant Christian teaching.

Keep in mind what Paul told the Christians of his day: “If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3–4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him” (2 Tim. 2:11–12).

If we do not persevere, we shall not reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven (CCC 1861).

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19–24]), but the Bible does not teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. Writing to Christians, Paul said, “See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22–23; Matt. 18:21–35, 1 Cor. 15:1–2, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

Note that Paul includes an important condition: “provided you remain in his kindness.” He is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, “Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall” (1 Cor. 10:11–12).

If you are Catholic and someone asks you if you have been “saved,” you should say, “I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.”

So how does this jive with the Scripture passages that tell us we are a new creation and no longer slaves to sin?

It jives just fine.

 

[CentralFLJames]

First of all one should know that there are two broad categories of Grace:

1. Actual Grace which is all around us operating to draw us to repent and to become Christians and which permits even evil people do “do good” things that benefit God’s Church but NOT that person’s salvation (although such a person might convert after seeing grace work in spite of his evil inclinations).
2. Sanctifying Grace - which is the deifying grace ALL Christians receive at Baptism and which will remain with us to give us eternal life IF we don’t disgrace ourselves and not repent and get forgiven again (what confession is for - post baptismal sin).

What many do not understand too is that baptism RADICALLY reconfigures the human 'natural soul" into a divine soul that is suitable for the Trinity to indwell and start sanctifying and maturing that soul over its entire life.

THAT is the difference. The natural soul that Nate has has never experienced that indwelling of Trinity and can not relate to what it lost since it never knew anything other than its originally fallen natural nature. But that baptises soul that falls from God KNOWS that something is wrong since it has lost the DIRECT indwelling of the Trinity and will pang to return to grace again in a very compelling and experiential way.

So the person who is baptised has multiple things working to bring him back" 1) actual grace that all have access too that calls for repentance 2) an compelling experiential spiritual aching for what it lost and 3) the very strong call of faith from The Church and its members that will present a very strong “shepherd’s hook” to pull the wayward sheep back into communion with the rest of the flock.

It’s all grace but the grace is generally more efficacious in one who has experienced it and lost it than in one who never knew (the latter perhaps observes it in others through the natural facility of observation (sense) and reason or life changing event like a death of a loved one).

Hope this helps some.

James