Faith and no works

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Sorry for another thread, I just have difficulty understanding.

Is faith and no works impossible?
 
Computer8 said:
Sorry for another thread, I just have difficulty understanding.

Is faith and no works impossible?
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you may try this thread on the theology forum, or the scripture forum.

you may find a more direct answer in the archives or the “ask an apologist” feature:)

for my money yes, faith without works is impossible. James 2:14 or so speaks on that i think.
 
warpspeedpetey said:
you may try this thread on the theology forum, or the scripture forum.

you may find a more direct answer in the archives or the “ask an apologist” feature:)

for my money yes, faith without works is impossible. James 2:14 or so speaks on that i think.
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Agreed!! Check out Matthew 25, too.
 
warpspeedpetey said:
for my money yes, faith without works is impossible. James 2:14 or so speaks on that i think.
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The demons know that Christ exists. They have faith, and yet deprived of all that is good and Godly their natures do not enjoin them to righteous acts.

Perhaps it is not possible for someone of humanity to have true faith and not have any righteousness whatsoever in them, but that doesn’t hold the case for evil spirits (and by extension the perfectly possessed would have no good nature left over and hence could in no way be righteous either)
 
promethius said:
The demons know that Christ exists. They have faith, and yet deprived of all that is good and Godly their natures do not enjoin them to righteous acts.
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Faith as intellectual assent is possible, as the demons demonstrate.

However, the others are correct that “true” faith is impossible without works.

So all answers here are correct, depending on how you approach the question. :o
 
MarcoPolo said:
Faith as intellectual assent is possible, as the demons demonstrate.

However, the others are correct that “true” faith is impossible without works.

So all answers here are correct, depending on how you approach the question. :o
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True faith? What is that? The term is an invention of protestantism to account for their conflict with James. I recognize no such term.

Instead, I recognize FAITH. Faith is belief and affirmation of such statements as the Apostles creed, etc.

And I recognize that there is DEAD faith: a faith which does not move us. I also recognize that there is LIVING faith: which is made living by our living according to our God given ordination for good works.

But “true” faith versus “untrue” faith? No thanks. That terminology just doesn’t fit the bill.
 
promethius said:
True faith? What is that? The term is an invention of protestantism to account for their conflict with James. I recognize no such term.

Instead, I recognize FAITH. Faith is belief and affirmation of such statements as the Apostles creed, etc.

And I recognize that there is DEAD faith: a faith which does not move us. I also recognize that there is LIVING faith: which is made living by our living according to our God given ordination for good works.

But “true” faith versus “untrue” faith? No thanks. That terminology just doesn’t fit the bill.
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I agree. I don’t know what “true” faith is either.

I think there is weak faith and strong faith. Weak faith is like dead faith, it is not strong enough to move us. Not strong enough to overcome the natural inertia, do all the work, to do what our faith tells us needs to be done.

Strong faith is living faith, just like the faith of the woman that was bleeding (Mk 5:25-34). Her faith told her, “If I just touch His garments, I shall get well.” So she did, elbowing her way through the crowd, doing all that work, and touched him. Power flowed from Jesus, and she was immediately healed. Jesus said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well.” So, even though scripture indicates that the power of Jesus is what actually healed her, it is also true to say that her living faith healed her.

In my opinion, this sums up the whole faith and works controversy.
 
Computer8 said:
Sorry for another thread, I just have difficulty understanding.

Is faith and no works impossible?
Click to expand...
Yes. Faith without works is impossible.
I have faith in God and therefore I do good works. Because of my faith I obey Him and this obedience can be seen in my fruit.
If I lack fruit on the other hand I can deduce that I am lacking the prerequisite, the faith. Faith without works is dead.
 
It’s very much like love. If you tell someone you love them, are the mere words enough if your actions say otherwise? On the contrary, if you do many good things just to ‘win points’ with someone, is that love? A profession of love must be accompanied and supported by your actions. So, too, it is with Faith. Professing Faith without works to show that you are genuine is not enough. Doing good works is wonderful, but doing them just for the sake of saying,“Look what I’ve done!” is not enough.

So, back to James 2: usccb.org/nab/bible/james/james2.htm
**17
So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18
Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works.

22
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works.*

26
For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.*

If you haven’t already done so, I’d suggest reading the entire chapter. Our Faith is a living Faith. As Christ lived His, we are to live ours. If we do not demonstrate our Faith in our works, if our lives bear no fruit - like the fig tree in this past Sunday’s Gospel reading - our Faith is not alive in the world. “Faith without works is dead.”
 
This is all well and good in what “The Faith” teaches. But what do you Trust?

Do you expect to receive? And what is it that you expect to receive?

When one has a fist full of dollars in their hand, he trusts he can receive, and do, what it can buy. And without money he can do nothing. Is this not the faith of the world? And if you don’t have the money, you may not receive or do.
 
DPMartin said:
This is all well and good in what “The Faith” teaches. **But what do you Trust? **

Do you expect to receive? And what is it that you expect to receive?

When one has a fist full of dollars in their hand, he trusts he can receive, and do, what it can buy. And without money he can do nothing. Is this not the faith of the world? And if you don’t have the money, you may not receive or do.
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" **But what do you Trust? **" I am not sure what you are asking here.

" And without money he can do nothing." Many good works are done in Faith by people of little or no means. Obvious examples are Mother Angelica and Mother Teresa. We do live in a materialistic world, but we of Faith are called to be in the world, not of the world. Charitable acts do not need to be costly. A smile, the willingness to listen to someone, carrying in the groceries, helping for Habitat for Humanity, serving in a soup kitchen, praying for the needs of others, carpooling, doing our best at home or work, etc. are all acts that show we are living the Faith we profess. As one of the faithful, if you do have wealth and material goods, you are also called to be a good steward of that wealth, and use it not only for your own benefit, but, also for the good of others…

Matthew 16:
26
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life?

Matthew 25:
  • 45
    He will answer them, 'Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
    46
    And these will go off to eternal punishment,     but the righteous to eternal life."*
 
LindaSK
Thanks for the reply

Please no offence intended.
It is the way of American politicians, to throw mud up against the wall, to see what sticks.

In the case of Mother Angelica, and Mother Teresa. Or any other who’s walk by Faith, has yielded much fruit that is well known. It’s like unto a great fruit bearing tree. You see the glory of the tree and it’s size and effect, but you did not see what it toke for that tree to become of a seed. (Unless you also are doing the same) And you didn’t know that it would become a great fruit bearing tree until you saw it do so. The tree dose not bear fruit first, it must grow in order to do so.

And again without some type of currency, whether it be moneys or authorities to do so. How would they have means?
 
DPMartin said:
LindaSK
Thanks for the reply

Please no offence intended.
It is the way of American politicians, to throw mud up against the wall, to see what sticks.

In the case of Mother Angelica, and Mother Teresa. Or any other who’s walk by Faith, has yielded much fruit that is well known. It’s like unto a great fruit bearing tree. You see the glory of the tree and it’s size and effect, but you did not see what it toke for that tree to become of a seed. (Unless you also are doing the same) And you didn’t know that it would become a great fruit bearing tree until you saw it do so. The tree dose not bear fruit first, it must grow in order to do so.

And again without some type of currency, whether it be moneys or authorities to do so. How would they have means?
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No offense taken!

I have no need to serve politicians, especially those you describe.

God is the means. God is the Authority. “With God all things are possible.” Such is the essence of Faith.

As your Faith grows, so grow your works. Sometimes, God does great things with “the Faith of a mustard seed.” Trust in God will provide the means if your work is in accord with God’s will. That is what Mother Angelica and St. Francis and Mother Teresa and many others learned. This is not, however what the world would have us believe. It is what God would have us believe. Would you prefer to trust in God, or in the world? Can a politician get you to Heaven? You cannot see ‘image’ or popularity as a priority…

John 15:
16
It was not you who chose me, but** I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain**, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.
17
This I command you: love one another.
18
7 "If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.
19
If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.

Many do not ‘get’ Mother Teresa or Mother Angelica and their efforts. Do you think that mattered to them?
 
LindaSK

Thanks for the reply

Just to be clear, essentially, there is no disagreement, in what you have posted. But what is the currency of the Kingdom of God? If it is easy as you say. Then why didn’t the woman who sot to touch the hem of the garment, just touch anybody’s garment? Why only the Lord’s?
 
since James tells us “faith without works is dead” then I would have to say “faith without works is dead” for my answer
 
promethius said:
True faith? What is that? The term is an invention of protestantism to account for their conflict with James. I recognize no such term.

Instead, I recognize FAITH. Faith is belief and affirmation of such statements as the Apostles creed, etc.

And I recognize that there is DEAD faith: a faith which does not move us. I also recognize that there is LIVING faith: which is made living by our living according to our God given ordination for good works.

But “true” faith versus “untrue” faith? No thanks. That terminology just doesn’t fit the bill.
Click to expand...
I think the OP was trying to distinguish between intellectually assenting to a truth and the virtue of Faith (which includes good works)
 
DPMartin said:
LindaSK

Thanks for the reply

Just to be clear, essentially, there is no disagreement, in what you have posted. But what is the **currency **of the Kingdom of God? If it is easy as you say. Then why didn’t the woman who sot to touch the hem of the garment, just touch anybody’s garment? Why only the Lord’s?
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“**currency **”???

Matthew 9:
  • 18
    13 While he was saying these things to them, an official came forward, knelt down before him, and said, "My daughter has just died. But come, lay your hand on her, and she will live."
    19
    Jesus rose and followed him, and so did his disciples.
    20
    A woman suffering hemorrhages for twelve years came up behind him and touched the tassel on his cloak.
    21
    She said to herself, “If only I can touch his cloak, I shall be cured.”
    22
    Jesus turned around and saw her, and said, “Courage, daughter! Your faith has saved you.” And from that hour the woman was cured.
    23
    When Jesus arrived at the official’s house and saw the flute players and the crowd who were making a commotion,
    24
    he said, “Go away! The girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they ridiculed him.
    25
    When the crowd was put out, he came and took her by the hand, and the little girl arose.*
  • 28
    When he entered the house, the blind men approached him and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I can do this?” “Yes, Lord,” they said to him.
    29
    Then he touched their eyes and said, "Let it be done for you according to your faith."
    30
    And their eyes were opened. Jesus warned them sternly, “See that no one knows about this.”*
No ‘currency’ required, just faith. Why just the Lord? Because they - WE - need to have faith that He alone truly is God.

Jesus asked, “Do you believe that I can do this?” The answer must be, *“Yes, Lord.” *The woman who touched His garment demonstrated great faith in Christ’s ability to heal her. No payment required other than faith. I’m not sure that kind of faith is ‘easy’, especially in our time where the secular media would ridicule such faith. See verse 24, there were those who ridiculed Him in His presence. Maybe times have not changed so much!

I’m not sure that answers your question.
 
LindaSK

Thanks for the reply
it seems in Luke it’s a little more detailed…

Luke:8
43: And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44: Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45: And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46: And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

Because He, Jesus, is where the Power is, in all of that crowd, even the disciples. The very Presence of God with them. Since one is baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, isn’t it true that all three are One? Hence one is not without the other.

Who are the fatherless but those who do not have God the Father in Heaven? Who is the widow but the ones who are not betrothed to Christ Jesus the Son? Who are the poor but the poor in Spirit. Didn’t Jesus preach the Kingdom of God to the poor? Is the Kingdom of God poor of the things of God? Surly not, it is rich and overflowing of the things of God. That virtue.

Isn’t the Kingdom His? Isn’t the Power His? Isn’t the Glory His? It still is His. So where is the Power, the authority, the currency?

Like the old Wendy’s commercial “where’s the beef?”

Let us Hope and pray we do not become like Sadducees
Math:22
29: Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God

In this does the world see the Faith, whether they believe or not, just in the days of Jesus.
 
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