Faith and works - help me get this right

[andyandely1997]

I agree with Bookcat on the initial saving grace of God. Evangelicals love these two verses, when it comes to being saved by faith alone, “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) But they do not mention the next verse, “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:10) After this initial saving grace, we are to do the works, which Christ has prepared for us. For we are to follow Christ, not only believe in Christ, for even the devil believes in Christ.

The Church teaches on two conversions, one of baptism and the other of an interior penance or conversion of heart. St. Ambrose says of the two conversions that, in the Church, “there are water and tears: the water of Baptism and the tears of repentance.” This is covered in paragraphs 1425-1439 in the CCC.

 

[DPMartin]

SecretBeliever

I believe the primary problem in the issue of Justification and works, is the understanding or the misunderstanding of what the works are. There is no disagreement (other then method ) that one must be Baptized in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit. But what are the Works, seems to be the disagreement.

If we look to Jacob who had not birth right but yet achieved birth right by agreement with his brother who had birth right, and traded it for a boul of lentil. Giving him right to receive blessing of the father Abraham, through his son Isaac. So first one must have birth right in order to receive blessing which would be the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. Which would be the fulfillment of God’s Word in them by being participants in the fulfillment of God’s Word. Of which God keeps. In the agreement God keeps His Word. Therefore God is Faithful to fulfill what He Promised.

If one follows Jesus, then that which is of the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit will be apparent. And it is God that Justifies and Validates one’s being in His Presence.

 

[fhansen]

I read those sermons (is that the right word?) a while ago. They are beautiful!

The thing is, that teaching is the same we get at my evangelical/pentacostal protestant AoG church.

But then do you really think God intended to have His house divided?

How do you receive that message? Where do you find it? How do you know for sure?

This is kind of like asking, “How do we know we have faith”? As we grow in knowledge of and love for God we simply want to do His will increasingly. And opportunities arise-they’re always here- whether they be feeding the poor or witnessing to our love for God. And grace arises as well and we follow its lead, becoming the “hands” of God to the extent we’re willing. And only He knows when enough’s enough-He’s the boss-but He’s drawing us into ever greater perfection/holiness/sanctification. And the goal is complete love for Him and love for neighbor as ourselves. In this love we’ll find our our full and eternal happiness.

 

[DPMartin]

But then do you really think God intended to have His house divided?

This is kind of like asking, “How do we know we have faith”? As we grow in knowledge of and love for God we simply want to do His will increasingly. And opportunities arise-they’re always here- whether they be feeding the poor or witnessing to our love for God. And grace arises as well and we follow its lead, becoming the “hands” of God to the extent we’re willing. And only He knows when enough’s enough-He’s the boss-but He’s drawing us into ever greater perfection/holiness/sanctification. And the goal is complete love for Him and love for neighbor as ourselves. In this love we’ll find our our full and eternal happiness.

Amen: the fruits thereof are apparent.

 

[PLeeD]

But then do you really think God intended to have His house divided?

I believe that the church, i.e. the “body of Christ”, includes everyone who believe in Him and seek His will in their life. It’s not once saved always saved. Believing in HIm means doing our best to become like Him even though we can’t succeed in this life.

This is kind of like asking, “How do we know we have faith”? As we grow in knowledge of and love for God we simply want to do His will increasingly. And opportunities arise-they’re always here- whether they be feeding the poor or witnessing to our love for God. And grace arises as well and we follow its lead, becoming the “hands” of God to the extent we’re willing. And only He knows when enough’s enough-He’s the boss-but He’s drawing us into ever greater perfection/holiness/sanctification. And the goal is complete love for Him and love for neighbor as ourselves. In this love we’ll find our our full and eternal happiness.

I agree with that completely. I’ve never attended a protestant church that teaches differently. That still doesn’t mean we are saved by works plus faith. We are saved by faith, and that faith should sow good works. Benedict’s sermons teach the difference.

 

[RobHom]

Here are some things that may help…see these links:

secondexodus.com/html/catholicdefinitions/spiritualworksofmercy.htm

secondexodus.com/html/catholicdefinitions/corporalworksofmercy.htm

As you can see… not a single one of them is at all difficult, and well…they are what any “True Christian” would do without having to think twice about it.

Also if you read Matthew 5 through 7 “The Sermon on the mount”… you will also get a better understanding as well. Matthew 5:16 so far as I am concerned says it all and makes the answer “FINAL”. I have always found that many people…primarily non-Catholics have has a slight tendency to seek their justifications for their beliefs in all parts of the Bible except in the actual words of Jesus Christ!

Matthew 5:16 says: ** So let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.** Now, I absolutely detest “snippetizing” scriptures… but face it: CHRIST SAID IT, and that settles it!

I liked “jihnbres2’s” post…and I agree wholeheartedly!! One can say “I believe in God, and I believe what the Bible says”…and I guess that person could then assume that they are saved and will go to heaven…but saying it and proving it are two entirely different things…

You can memorize all the scriptures in the world, you can do what ever you want, but unless you prove your faith by doing as Christ commanded in His own words… A person’s claims are no more noise than the bark of a dog. “Works” are not specific duties that are scheduled…they are a part of our lives… But why do non-Catholics rebel against them: Simple, its merely a way for them to justify their existence and keep the wedge of disagreement in place, since every time they are in agreement with the Catholic Church…they are one step closer to becoming Catholic themselves.

 

[PLeeD]

CHRIST SAID IT, and that settles it!

Settles what? That we are saved by works? That’s not what Pope Benedict says. That’s not what Christ said. No protestant Christian that I know would say we shouldn’t do good works.

The insistent assumption that all of protestantism believes we shouldn’t do good works is a straw man. It’s tired. You need to just let it go

 

[RobHom]

Settles what? That we are saved by works? That’s not what Pope Benedict says. That’s not what Christ said. No protestant Christian that I know would say we shouldn’t do good works.

No, Pope Benedict didn’t say that, and neither did I. No-one has said that we are saved by works… You need not attempt to twist words to fit your desires. Re-read what I posted and open your mind up as a Christian should. Maybe protestants will not deny that they should do good works, but they will boldly make the claim despite all the evidence to the contrary in the Bible that “works” have absolutely nothing to do with salvation…

The insistent assumption that all of protestantism believes we shouldn’t do good works is a straw man. It’s tired. You need to just let it go

No, it isn’t a “straw man”…frankly the protestant position that “works” have absolutely nothing to do with salvation is the straw man. Besides, I do know some “protestants” who do in fact believe that “faith without works is dead”. So, not all “protestants” are not lumped together as you might surmise.

Do YOU prove your faith by just saying “I believe”, or do you PROVE your faith by your actions and your way of life?? Its that simple… as James said: Faith without works is DEAD!

Believe it or not my friend…agreeing with Catholics is not a bad thing, really…

 

[PLeeD]

Maybe protestants will not deny that they should do good works, but they will boldly make the claim despite all the evidence to the contrary in the Bible that “works” have absolutely nothing to do with salvation…

I would never make that claim. No Christian I know would make that claim.

I claim that works have precisely the same relationship to salvation that Pope Benedict claims in the linked sermon text.

Isn’t your insistence on putting words in my mouth, and the mouths of other protestants, the very definition of a straw man argument? Your claims don’t exist to any significant degree in the world of protestant belief, let alone even a majority.

I pray you will let go of your prejudices and embrace your protestant brothers and sisters in Christ

Do YOU prove your faith by just saying “I believe”, or do you PROVE your faith by your actions and your way of life?? Its that simple… as James said: Faith without works is DEAD!

Believe it or not my friend…agreeing with Catholics is not a bad thing, really…

Maybe you missed this:

For me, it means being faithful in tithes, which support the charity work of our church. It means being charitable with offerings for other good causes. It also means directly helping those in need. One way that happens in my life is, I always feel compelled to stop and help stranded motorists. I’d liken it to the OT teaching that we should help our neighbor when his donkey is stuck in the ditch. Same concept I don’t do it because the Law compels it, or because I think it’s necessary for salvation, but because love for Jesus and the Holy Spirit draws me to it.

It’s not a bad thing to agree with a protestant once in a while either!

 

[RobHom]

I would never make that claim. No Christian I know would make that claim.

My friend, while you may not, I can assure you that a good many have and will, and many have on these fora.

I claim that works have precisely the same relationship to salvation that Pope Benedict claims in the linked sermon text.

As do I, and I do presume you are referring particularly to this, as stated by Pope Benedict:

*Seen in this perspective, the centrality of justification without works, the primary object of Paul’s preaching, does not clash with faith that works through love; indeed, it demands that our faith itself be expressed in a life in accordance with the Spirit. Often there is seen an unfounded opposition between St Paul’s theology and that of St James, who writes in his Letter: “as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”(2: 26). In reality, while Paul is primarily concerned to show that faith in Christ is necessary and sufficient, James accentuates the consequential relations between faith and works (cf. Jas 2: 24). Therefore, for both Paul and James, faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justification in Christ. Salvation received in Christ needs to be preserved and witnessed to “with fear and trembling. For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure… Do all things without grumbling or questioning… holding fast the word of life”, St Paul was to say further, to the Christians of Philippi (cf. Phil 2: 12-14, 16). *

Isn’t your insistence on putting words in my mouth, and the mouths of other protestants, the very definition of a straw man argument? Your claims don’t exist to any significant degree in the world of protestant belief, let alone even a majority.

Actually, I really wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth. That’s not something I am ever inclined to do…generally a bad idea, but the reality remains that for many “protestants” of many denominations…what I have said carries much truth.

I pray you will let go of your prejudices and embrace your protestant brothers and sisters in Christ

My friend, I did that loooonnnnggg ago!! My most fervent wish is that it could be reciprocal by all!

Maybe you missed this:

Apparently I did, and I am happy that you pointed that out… Obviously you have made the commitment to live your faith, and that makes you an example to us all.

It’s not a bad thing to agree with a protestant once in a while either!

True enough… in fact I’ve spent some rather good times on the phone with a couple of people from these fora…

I think what we have to some extent is as Pope Benedict pointed out… “there are unfounded oppositions”…which I believe can be attributed to most of us being on our guard and being zealous about protecting and defending our beliefs, and this can be so intense that we sometimes have trouble seeing the forest because the trees get in the way… I know it happens to me occasionally… Peace my friend!!

 

[fhansen]

I believe that the church, i.e. the “body of Christ”, includes everyone who believe in Him and seek His will in their life. It’s not once saved always saved. Believing in HIm means doing our best to become like Him even though we can’t succeed in this life.

This is from the Catechism:
**
820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

• a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280
• conversion of heart as the faithful “try to live holier lives according to the Gospel”;281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ’s gift which causes divisions;
• prayer in common, because “change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;”'282
• fraternal knowledge of each other;283
• ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284
• dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285
• collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 “Human service” is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize “that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts.” That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288
**

It’s important that we’re united in our beliefs. Some tenets are more essential than others but to believe God wants the kinds of division that exists in Christanity today would be to make Him out to be divided with Himself. Unity is only a good thing.

I agree with that completely. I’ve never attended a protestant church that teaches differently. That still doesn’t mean we are saved by works plus faith. We are saved by faith, and that faith should sow good works. Benedict’s sermons teach the difference.

Benedict speaks of faith working through love. Lutherans and Catholics are close on this point but, in any case, Catholics believe that the “working” is a part of our salvation, and that God wants us truly justified-that’s always been His goal for man-not merely “imputedly” so. We definitely don’t believe that God gave man commandments that he was utterly incapable of obeying, then blamed man for disobedience, then saved him anyway in spite of his disobedience. He saves us while we’re still in our sins and transgressions, but, by His grace; He’s doing a good work in us, a process of the Potter molding the clay, drawing but not forcing us until we’re fully just. Sanctification is our justification.

 

[SunshineZA]

Settles what? That we are saved by works? That’s not what Pope Benedict says. That’s not what Christ said. No protestant Christian that I know would say we shouldn’t do good works.

The insistent assumption that all of protestantism believes we shouldn’t do good works is a straw man. It’s tired. You need to just let it go

Sorry if my comment is off the thread, but there are Protestant people in my village who believe in pre-destination. Saved no matter what and if one is not predestined to be saved - well that’s just too bad.

Jesus compared the Kingdom of Heaven to a mustard seed - good works is the result of faith.

 

[simspt]

Thanks, that is a great read, especially because it helps me understand the concept of Grace in this.

@All: thank you for your insightful comments.

I found it helpful in clarifying the terms including the similarities and differences between the two.

 

[SacredHeart1987]

I am currently debating some Protestants, and the topic is Faith and Works, hurray! I want to make sure I set out the Catholic stand properly, but I find it difficult to come up with the right approach and to find the right words. Please help me. So far I have this:

Protestants believe that a person is justified by faith in Christ. Once baptized, the person will remain justified for the rest of his life as long as he holds on to his faith.

Catholics believe that a person is justified by faith in Christ. Once baptized, the person will remain justified for the rest of his life as long as he holds on to his faith and performs good works. He can lose his justification if he does not back up his faith with works.

Is this correct?

Furthermore, how and where should I put the concept of ‘grace’ in? Other advice?

The doctrine of Justification will differ from denomination to denomination in Protestantism. The majority of Protestants believe in imputation. No where in the scriptures does talk about forensic legal imputation. Thats heresy and it was condemned by the Council of Trent. The word for “credited” or “reckoned” is the Greek word “Logizomai”.

Look this word up and you’ll find it means NOTHING regarding imputation. Because Imputation is defined as seeing in someone something that is not really there that has to be giving to a him from an alien source, but this word “Logizomai” in the Greek is used exactly the opposite way in the New Testament. It refers to actually seeing something in the person. Recognizing something in the person itself. Look it up and you’ll see the Protestant interpretation of this word is completely wrong!

I’m not going to comment on the Catholic view of Justification because every practicing Catholic reading my post should should know what it is if they’ve read they’re Catechism or the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent.

 

[jeff417]

John Martignoni has a wonderful debate on this topic posted on his website. It really puts faith, works, and grace into a biblical perspective. His website is …
biblechristiansociety.com
God Bless