Faith and Works (Salvation)

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Sooner4Christ

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Speaking with an evangelical friend of mine and this was his response…

I do believe faith and works go hand and hand. If you have faith the workswill come with it. I do believe only faith gets you to heaven. Workshas nothing to do with that. What Paul is saying in Romans 2:6. Youasked how he can say this and works has nothing to do with getting toheaven. Works on earth are just rewards in heaven that we willrecieve if we have faith in Jesus to get there. The more good workswe do the more rewards we get in heaven. What I dont understand is how you can agree with me on we dont earn our salvation, but then say that works has something to do with getting to heaven. Works is something we earn or do. I agree you can blow your salvation. Everyone has a chance to be saved. Not everyone excepts him.

If you can lose salvation, were do you draw the line of when you lose it. If you lose it everytime you turn your back on God then I am in trouble. I turn my back on God many times a day. Everytime I sin that is turning my back on God. Salvation would be a **** shot because we would have not to be sinning when we die. I also believe losing your salvation is wrong for this reason. We gain our salvation the Jesus Christ and that alone. If we have towork to keep it that is placing our salvation in the hands of
ourselves to keep it. God also say he will never let us go. John 10:28-29: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shallnever perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. MyFather, which gave them me is greater than all; and no man is able topluck them out of my Father’s hand.” This verse explians it very clearly to me. If no man can pluck us outof Gods hands that would include ourselves.
 
Romans 8:38-39: “…neither death, nor life, nor angels, norprincipalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able toseparate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.” This verse explains that nothing we every do will seperate us fromGods Love once we are saved. If someone is not save they getseperated from Gods Love in Hell. This says not even Death so Once achild of God you can not be seperated from his love. Any denial of eternal security is, in its essence, a belief that wemust maintain our own salvation by our own good works. This iscompletely antithetical to salvation by grace. We are saved because ofChrist’s merits, not our own (Romans 4:3-8). To claim that we mustobey God’s Word or live a godly life to maintain our salvation isequal to saying that Jesus’ death was not sufficient to pay the********penalty for our sins. Jesus’ death was absolutely sufficient to payfor all of our sins - past, present, and future, pre-salvation andpost-salvation (Romans 5:8; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:21). So, with all that said, does this mean that a Christian can liveanyway they want to and still be saved? This is essentially ahypothetical question, because the Bible makes it clear that a trueChristian will not live “anyway they want to.” Christians are newcreations (2 Corinthians 5:17). Christians demonstrate the fruit ofthe Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), not the acts of the flesh (Galatians5:19-21). 1 John 3:6-9 clearly states that a true Christian will notlive in continual sin. In response to the accusation that gracepromotes sin, the Apostle Paul declared, “What shall we say, then?Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! Wedied to sin; how can we live in it any longer?” (Romans 6:1-2).
 
The major problem is the idea of being “saved”. Some feel their being saved is an event, such as their baptism, I feel being saved is a process which may begin at baptism but continues throughout your life and culminates at your bodily death. You aren’t saved until your body dies. In essence, no one is “saved” as long as they live in this earthly, sinful world, you aren’t “saved” nor condemned until you die. You cannot die to sin and still be breathing. Now there are of course exceptions, the saints for example would not have committed any mortal sins.
 
I am not sure if there was a question, but if there was, I assume it was associated with the part in red.

Jesus death is sufficient to pay for all our sins, past, present, or future. But to have that payment applied to us, do we not need to repent?

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

“The prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.” (James 5:15)

“And forgive us our debts, As we also have forgiven our debtors.” (Mat. 6:12)

Clearly, the merits of Christ’s atoning sacrifice need to be applied as we repent, over time.
 
Also, as Tom said, your friend’s view of salvation doesn’t accord with scripture, which clearly shows that it is a process.

Also, you are both using the word “faith” differently.

Also, your friend’s thought that all sin is a turning one’s back on God is an assumption that Catholics need not make (i.e., not all sins are mortal).
 
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Sooner4Christ:
Speaking with an evangelical friend of mine and this was his response…

I do believe faith and works go hand and hand. If you have faith the works will come with it. I do believe only faith gets you to heaven.
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Why do you say they go hand in hand then attempt to separate them?
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Sooner4Christ:
Works has nothing to do with that. What Paul is saying in Romans 2:6.
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The confusion comes from the fact that in translating, the same word “works” is used for those items required by the Law (Jewish Law) and Christian deeds. Paul is referring to “works” of the Law. Please read the writings of Paul in context, he does not tell us we should not do Christian “deeds” in fact he tells us we should! He is telling us we need not do “works” of the Law, we do indeed need to do those things Jesus teaches us to do, unfortunately we also call them “works”. This is a linguistics problem, unfortunately some think they need not do anything except say they are “saved”. That is not true, you need to carry your cross and follow Him, doing all of the things He teaches us to do.
 
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John_Henry:
Also, as Tom said, your friend’s view of salvation doesn’t accord with scripture, which clearly shows that it is a process.

Also, you are both using the word “faith” differently.

Also, your friend’s thought that all sin is a turning one’s back on God is an assumption that Catholics need not make (i.e., not all sins are mortal).
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He believes all sins are equally bad… Mortal and Venial sins are unbiblical according to him.
 
This just in he stated,

No matter what we do God will forgive us because he does not see us as sinners he see us and Jesus White as Snow. THis of course is once were are saved.

Please explain to me how someone can lose there
salvation? Does this mean the Holy Spirit leaves that person. Once omeone is saved we have become a new creation. That is the mirical in it. If someone is truely saved you can tell by what they do. The
Holy Spirit says he is with you always. No where does it say the Holy Spirit will leave you.

Any good repy to this?
 
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Sooner4Christ:
He believes all sins are equally bad… Mortal and Venial sins are unbiblical according to him.
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Obviously, there’s the whole 1 John 5:16 thing. Is your buddy at all into the early Church Fathers? They were also quite clear on it.

Also, you can show him how in the Old Testament, God punished different sins very differently. Thus murder and manslaughter are punished very differently. One with death (mortal), the other not. Granted we are in the new covenant now, but has the nature of sin changed, or the God of the two covenants, for that matter?
 
Catholics agree that Jesus’ gift is sufficient to save us, but like any gift, we are free to reject it. There are numerous ways of rejecting that grace. If we couldn’t reject the grace, then it wouldn’t be a gift. Grace effects both faith and good works. Indeed, faith IS a work. Believing or having faith is something we do.

Jimmy Akin’s book The Salvation Controversy might be of interest to your him. You may want to print out a few tracts on salvation for your friend:

catholic.com/library/salvation.asp

Notice too, under his scheme, he doesn’t really have any “assurance of salvation” because he never knows if he’s a “true believer”.

Here are some verses to keep in mind:

SALVATION, FAITH AND WORKS
Faith Alone or Faith plus Works?
Jam 2:24 - a man is justified by works and not by faith alone
Jam 2:26 - faith without works is dead
Gal 5:6 - only thing that counts is faith working in love
1 Cor 13:2 - faith without love is nothing
Jn 14:15 - if you love me, keep my commandments
Mt 19:16-17 - if you wish to enter into life, keep commandments
1Tim 5:8 he who doesn’t provide for family worse than unbeliever.

Have You Been Saved?

Past Event (I have been saved)
Rom 8:24 - for in hope we were saved
Eph 2:5, 8 - by grace you have been saved through faith
2Tim 1;9 - He saved us, called us according to his grace
Tit 3:5 - He saved us through bath of rebirth, renewal by Holy Spirit

Present Process (I am being saved)
Phil 2;12 - work out your salvation with fear and trembling
1Pet 1:9 - as you attain the goal of your faith, salvation

Future Event (I will be saved)
Mt 10:22 - he who endures to the end will be saved
Mt 24:1 - he who perseveres to the end will be saved
Mk 8:35 - whoever loses his life for my sake will save it
Acts 15:11 - we shall be saved through the grace of Jesus
Rom 5:9-10 - since we are justified, we shall be saved
Rom 13:11 - salvation is nearer now than first believed
Cor 3:15 - he shall be saved, but only as through fire
1Cor 5:5 - deliver man to Satan so his spirit may be saved
Heb 9:28 - Jesus will appear second time, to bring salvation

Good Works
Mt 7:21 - not Lord, Lord but he who does the will of father
Mt 19:16-17 - to have life, keep my commandments
Jn 14:21 - he who keeps my commandments loves me
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
Gal 5:4-6 - nothing counts but faith working through love
Eph 2:8-10 - we are created in Christ Jesus for good works
Phil 2:12-13 - work out salvation with fear and trembling
Jam 2:14-24 - a man is justified by works & not faith alone

Judged According to Deeds
Rom 2:2-8 - eternal life by perseverance in good works
2Cor 5:10 - recompense accord to what did in body
2Cor 11:15 - their end will correspond to their deeds
1Pet 1:17 - God judges impartially according to one’s works
Rev 20:12-13 - dead judged according to their deeds
Col 3:24-25 - will receive due payment for whatever you do

Assurance of Salvation?
Mt 7:21 - not everyone saying “Lord, Lord” will inherit
Mt 24:13 - those who persevere to the end will be saved
Rom 11:22 - remain in his kindness or you will be cut off
Phil 2:12 - work out your salvation in fear and trembling
1Cor 9:27 - drive body for fear of being disqualified
1Cor 10:11-12 - those thinking they are secure may fall
Gal 5:4 - separated from Christ, you’ve fallen from grace
2Tim 2:11-13 - must hold out to the end to reign with Christ
Hb 6:4-6 - describes sharers in Holy Spirit who then fall away
Heb 10:26-27 - if sin after receiving truth, judgment remains

source: geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/biblecheatsheet.html

To keep from going in “personal interpretation” circles, you may wish to ask him sometime by what authority he interprets the Bible the way he does:

catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp
geocities.com/thecatholicconvert/solascriptura21.html
 
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Sooner4Christ:
He believes all sins are equally bad… Mortal and Venial sins are unbiblical according to him.
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So stealing a cookie = robbing a bank?

It’s simply not logical.

1 John 5
16: If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.

Further God does not judge equal sins the same based on culpability.

Luke 12
47: And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.
48: But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more

Blessings
 
No matter what we do God will forgive us
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That’s true. No need to rebut that.
because he does not see us as sinners he see us and Jesus White as Snow. THis of course is once were are saved.
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Not sure where that is in the bible.

“Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Cor 6:9-10)

Who is Paul speaking to here? Christians who were committing serious sin. why would he warn them that such people do not inherit the kingdom, if they were indeed not in danger of such a fate.
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*** Please explain to me how someone can lose there
salvation? Does this mean the Holy Spirit leaves that person. Once omeone is saved we have become a new creation. That is the mirical in it. If someone is truely saved you can tell by what they do. The
Holy Spirit says he is with you always. No where does it say the Holy Spirit will leave you.
Where does it say the Holy Spirit will be with you always? Look, the how of the question is irrelevant. It is the Church who follows Scripture in saying that some can lose grace.

“They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Rom. 11:20-22)

*"*For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

“For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:26-29)

“You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” (Gal. 5:4)

There are many, many other such verses.
 
My friend was brought up in the Baptist Church… dropped the Baptist Church… now he is an Evangelical who believes in Faith alone, while tieing in the tennants of Once Saved Always Saved.

I can’t seem to reach him, and I was just doing an exercise that we should take all scripture into consideration. I’m not trying to convert or disprove, I’m just trying to plant a seed. Let him think about what is actually going on.

He truly believes that Jesus Christ died on the Cross and as long as you believe you are saved. That moment in time when you accept Jesus Christ you are saved… It’ done… Meanwhile spinning the concept by saying with faith comes good works.

He is the type if I gave him a book to read on this subject, no matter how true it is, he would say, “that is my story and I’m sticking to it.”

This is what he states:

**You have to remember even the Devil believes and knows the word of God. What that second verse means is if we do not continue to grow our releationship with God we will become useless to him. It does not mean we lose our salvation. I have never read anywhere in the bible
that states someone lost there salvation after they recieved it. The Old Testement is different because they had to sacrifice animals for salvation. Jesus died on the cross to cover our sins with his blood. No matter what we do God will forgive us because he does not see us as
sinners he see us and Jesus White as Snow. THis of course is once were are saved. Please explain to me how someone can lose there salvation? Does this mean the Holy Spirit leaves that person. Once
someone is saved we have become a new creation. That is the mirical
in it. If someone is truely saved you can tell by what they do. The
Holy Spirit says he is with you always. No where does it say the Holy
Spirit will leave you.
**
 
o.k., I’m trying something new, rather than separating past quotes, I’m separating my current post using the quote and pasting the Scripture as new
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Matthew 10
22 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall persevere unto the end, he shall be saved.
Why would we need to persevere if being saved was an event and we couldn’t lose this ?
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Matthew 19
25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved?
Matthew 24
13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Again, we need to persevere? Why? If we are “saved”. The answer of course is we are not “saved” until the end of out life. Once saved always saved goes against Scripture.
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11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many.
Several thousand so far
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12 And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold.
Charity? Sounds like a “work” doesn’t it?
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13 But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved.
Again with this persevere, why, if we were “saved” do we need to persevere? After all, once we’re saved we can’t lose it can we?
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Mark 10
26 Who wondered the more, saying among themselves: Who then can be saved?
Mark 13
13 And you shall be hated by all men for my name’s sake. But he that shall endure unto the end, he shall be saved.
Endure to the end? What about once saved always saved?
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Mark 16
16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
Shall be, future, not is already
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Luke 8
12 And they by the way side are they that hear; then the devil cometh, and taketh the word out of their heart, lest believing they should be saved.
How could Satan “taketh the word out of their heart”? What about once saved always saved?
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Luke 13
23 And a certain man said to him: Lord, are they few that are saved? But he said to them: 24 Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I say to you, shall seek to enter, and shall not be able. 25 But when the master of the house shall be gone in, and shall shut the door, you shall begin to stand without, and knock at the door, saying: Lord, open to us. And he answering, shall say to
“Strive to enter by the narrow gate”? you mean I have to do something in addition to accepting the Lord as my professional Lord and saviour?
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John 5
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but I say these things, that you may be saved.
Again with the future tense. Aren’t we already saved?
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John 10
9 I am the door. By me, if any man enter in, he shall be saved: and he shall go in, and go out, and shall find pastures.
Shall be, not is already.
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Sooner4Christ:
This is what he states:

You have to remember even the Devil believes and knows the word of God. What that second verse means is if we do not continue to grow our releationship with God we will become useless to him.****
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Actually, and I know you know this, the direct context of the verse he is referencing in James 2 is that faith without works is dead. The devil believes, but it is of no use to him because it does not bear fruit in good works. It’s not that people with faith alone are useless, it’s that they are in the same category as the devil. And that’s not good company.
 
On EWTN there is a guy that has an apologetics web site… Something along the lines of biblesociety… something… I don’t remember…

He has free tapes and documents… Anybody have the site?
 
The problem protestants have with accepting the fact that they can lose their salvation is that they jettisoned the sacrament of confession from their belief. They have to believe that they can never lose their salvation because they have no other way to rationalize away the sins they will commit. It’s easier to say Jesus loves me just the way I am by covering up sins rather than to go to confession and have those sins washed clean.
 
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Sooner4Christ:
Speaking with an evangelical friend of mine and this was his response…

I do believe faith and works go hand and hand. If you have faith the workswill come with it. I do believe only faith gets you to heaven. Works has nothing to do with that.
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Oh I agree totally: faith and works go hand in hand except when it comes to getting into heaven, then works has nothings to do with faith :rolleyes: If this is so, why did God choose to include passages in Scripture such as:
“So you see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” James 2:24

The parable of the sheep and goats where each will be judged by his deeds

“Therefore work out your salvation with fear and trembling”

There are so many verses that talk about the NECESSITY of works you simply cannot discount them. Faith and works may indeed be separable, but not on this side of eternity. You only know of your faith by your works - get over it.
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Sooner4Christ:
Works on earth are just rewards in heaven that we willrecieve if we have faith in Jesus to get there. The more good workswe do the more rewards we get in heaven.

What happened to the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice? What if we get to heaven without any works - will we be perfectly happy? If yes, then why do them? If no, then the QUALITY of our salvation is indeed dependent on our works. What say you?
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Sooner4Christ:
What I dont understand is how you can agree with me on we dont earn our salvation, but then say that works has something to do with getting to heaven.

why can’t a reward (salvation) involve both an element of a gift which we could never have fulfilled and an element of cooperation that we must fulfill? One analogy would be a college diploma:
Your parents might freely give you the money to pay for it (gift) but it still requires that you persevere in your studies(element of cooperation) in order for you to succeed. Your degree in this case is both a gift and a reward. What’s important to realize in the analogy is that the initiative is entirely God’s - without His Grace we are incapable of salvation.
Phil
 
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