Faith and Works

[JonNC]

Justification is accessed by faith, itself a gift which, we believe, starts even in infants in Baptism, strengthened by hearing the word and receiving the sacraments as we grow in grace. Good works are an essential fruit of this growth in grace. We respond to Christ’s call, not out of fear of condemnation if we don’t (that fear is lifted by grace), but out of love, which we received first from Him when we were still in our sins.

Jesus says in Matthew:

But the Pharisees hearing that he had silenced the Sadducees, came together: 35And one of them, a doctor of the law, asking him, tempting him: 36Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself. This is the source of good works. First, you must love the Lord your God (faith!). Then, love your neighbor.

But if we are to believe that we do good works out of fear of condemnation, that’s not love. If we believe we have to do good works to earn salvation, how is that different than the Pelagians we both condemn?

The Athanasian Creed, which we both confess, states at the end: ** At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. **

How can Lutherans say this? We can say this because we know that a true, saving faith has good works as it’s fruits.

Jon

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=Duane1966;13391141]

“Is it then enough,” saith one, “to believe on the Son, that one may have eternal life?” By no means. . . . let us not suppose that the (knowledge) spoken of is sufficient for our salvation . . . Since though he has said here, “He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life,” . . . yet not even from this do we assert that faith alone is sufficient to salvation. And the directions for living given in many places of the Gospels show this. (Homily XXXI, 1, On John 3:35-36; NPNF 1, Vol. XIV)

When one links this to the quote I gave, we see the understanding of Paul, “For ye are saved by grace, through faith; and this not of yourselves; it is God’s gift…”, followed by James, “faith without works is dead.”

Here Paul stirs up those who had fallen away during the persecutions and shows that it is not right to trust in faith only. For God’s tribunal will demand deeds as well. (Homilies on Romans, 5; commenting on Romans 2:7; Bray, 59; NPNF 1, Vol. XI: 362)

Amen.

Hence I beseech you, let us be zealous in practicing those very deeds (by no other way, in fact, is it possible to be saved) . . . (Homilies on Genesis 47,18; commenting on Romans 2:13; Bray, 66; Deferrari, Vol. 87: 24)

Again, who is it he is speaking to? The regenerate. The justified. He is calling them to the good works Christ has prepared for us to do. To fail to do so, to reject that call is sin.
There is a difference between saying “good works save”, and “failure to do good works condemns”. Grace through faith saves, but we have free will, to reject grace, and choose to live in sin. That choice condemns.

For what he saith is this, "Your salvation is not our work alone, but your own as well; . . . for not through believing only cometh your salvation, but also through the suffering and enduring the same things with us. (Homily on the Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians; on 2 Cor 1:6-7; speaking as if from St. Paul’s perspective; NPNF 1: Vol. XII, 277)

Again, I agree.

[L]et us have a regard for our own salvation, let us make virtue our care, let us rouse ourselves to the practice of good works, that we may be counted worthy to attain to this exceeding glory, in Jesus Christ our Lord . . . (Homily IV on Ephesians 2:10; NPNF 1: Vol. XIII, 68)

Amen.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

But if charity also, then it’s not faith alone. Why do you think faith implies love?

Because Christ says so. Back to Matthew 22:

• Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets. *

Is it possible to love God, and not have faith in Him?
And through that faith, we are called to act in charity, love, toward our neighbors.

Jon

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Is it possible to serve Christ and not know you are serving Christ? Is it necessary for one to be aware that they are serving Christ, when they are serving Christ?

We all believe Jesus has the LAST WORD, I think. Now, I was told by Catholic Tiger that Jesus obligates US with the sacraments. Oh, I believe the sacraments are necessary for us to grow in faith.

As one would say, we must WORK OUT OUR FAITH with fear and trembling. It seems to me that by WORKING on our FAITH, that our FAITH GROWS.

Each person, from what I understand have different CAPACITIES of FAITH. Like a balloon if you will.

Now, from what I understand, or have been enlightened with if you will, GOOD WORKS increase these capacities. The turning away from sin and the mortification of our senses to the things of this world.

I do not believe that once a conversion takes place, that a person is all of a sudden at the level of SAINTHOOD. Take a look at the disciples. They ate with Christ. They heard Him. They saw the miracles, and an actual intimate relationship with Him. They still lost faith. They were still ill prepared for the level of sacrifice that they would later be prepared for.

Peter went from denials to being crucified upside down. All of the disciples endured horrendous deaths (not John, but then again he was only one at the foot of the cross. Coincidence?)

I think, and I could always be wrong obviously, is that there is this disconnect or belief among many that once the conversion takes place, that there is no need for growth and that there is nothing we do that increases this capacity of faith. For some it seems it is ALL OR NOTHING.

Here is a question for the protestants brothers. Of all the conversions you have witnessed or have experienced yourself, were they full grown in faith once they converted? Or do you and others that convert grow?

What, causes that capacity of faith to grow? Nothing? Something? Please, explain or share how you have grown in your faith.

 

[fhansen]

Because Christ says so. Back to Matthew 22:

• Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.* 38This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.

Is it possible to love God, and not have faith in Him?
And through that faith, we are called to act in charity, love, toward our neighbors.

Jon

Actually the CC teaches that while love encompasses faith and hope, faith and hope can exist without love yet having been wrought in us. This is the basic reason why faith is said to be the beginning, the root and foundation of justification, not the end-all of it. And this is why Augustine could say: "Without love faith may indeed exist but avails nothing."

 

[JonNC]

=CatholicKnight3;13395627]
Now, from what I understand, or have been enlightened with if you will, GOOD WORKS increase these capacities. The turning away from sin and the mortification of our senses to the things of this world.

If by this you mean the Spirit working within us to these ends, then yes.

I do not believe that once a conversion takes place, that a person is all of a sudden at the level of SAINTHOOD. Take a look at the disciples. They ate with Christ. They heard Him. They saw the miracles, and an actual intimate relationship with Him. They still lost faith. They were still ill prepared for the level of sacrifice that they would later be prepared for.

Peter went from denials to being crucified upside down. All of the disciples endured horrendous deaths (not John, but then again he was only one at the foot of the cross. Coincidence?)

I think, and I could always be wrong obviously, is that there is this disconnect or belief among many that once the conversion takes place, that there is no need for growth and that there is nothing we do that increases this capacity of faith. For some it seems it is ALL OR NOTHING.

Here is a question for the protestants brothers. Of all the conversions you have witnessed or have experienced yourself, were they full grown in faith once they converted? Or do you and others that convert grow?

What, causes that capacity of faith to grow? Nothing? Something? Please, explain or share how you have grown in your faith.

When I was confirmed, the pastor laid his hands on me and said,

The Father in heaven, for Jesus’ sake, renew and increase in you the gift of the Holy Spirit, to your strengthening in faith, to your growth in grace, to your patience in suffering, and to the blessed hope of everlasting life.

The answer to your question is no, we grow in grace. How could I be “full of grace” following my baptism a month and a day after I was born? I am reminded daily of St. Paul’s words in Romans 7:

For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

We are strengthened in faith, and we grow in grace, as the pastor’s words here say, by the increase of the gift of the Holy Spirit. That increases, of course, through word and sacrament. Regularly hearing the word, confessing and receiving Holy Absolution, receiving the blessed sacrament, and even through those rites that Lutherans don’t call sacraments, but Catholics do: Confirmation (well over 40 years later, those words continue to bless me), marriage (same with this for 30 years), ordination (only recently have I discovered to its full extent how important the ordained ministry is to a layman such as myself), and anointing.
This strengthening in faith and growth in grace makes doing good works all that more possible.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Actually the CC teaches that while love encompasses faith and hope, faith and hope can exist without love yet having been wrought in us. This is the basic reason why faith is said to be the beginning, the root and foundation of justification, not the end-all of it. And this is why Augustine could say: "Without love faith may indeed exist but avails nothing."

And Luther mirrors Augustine when he says:

Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. **On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. **In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Jon

 

[KjetilK]

The confusion with this event is because we must first identify who is involved. In v.32 it says all nations shall be gathered.

Are there no Christians in the various nations?

 

[KjetilK]

Jon, if works of charity are essential, then is the faith alone? If faith is truly alone, it means nothing else is with it.

No, that doesn’t follow at all. If I say ‘John alone drank beer,’ would that necessarily mean that I wasn’t with him, drinking wine? If not, why do claim that saying ‘by faith alone justification is brought about,’ would necessarily mean that charity and good works do not accompany faith?

It all boils down to language. In the sentence iustificationem sola fide, is sola an adjective modifying the noun (fide, ‘faith’), or an adverb modifying the verb/participle (iustificationem, ‘justify’)? If it is the former, the phrase (iustificationem sola fide) means that justification comes by a faith that is alone, while it is the latter, the phrase means that justification comes by a faith alone, but not necessarily a faith that is alone.

 

[Duane1966]

No, that doesn’t follow at all. If I say ‘John alone drank beer,’ would that necessarily mean that I wasn’t with him, drinking wine? If not, why do claim that saying ‘by faith alone justification is brought about,’ would necessarily mean that charity and good works do not accompany faith?

So are we saved by faith alone, or faith and works?

 

[Duane1966]

No, that doesn’t follow at all. If I say ‘John alone drank beer,’ would that necessarily mean that I wasn’t with him, drinking wine? If not, why do claim that saying ‘by faith alone justification is brought about,’ would necessarily mean that charity and good works do not accompany faith?

LOL, the difference is you are not saying John is alone, you are saying he is the only one drinking beer. That is a major difference than saying saved by faith alone. Change the order of the sentence to “John drank beer alone” and you get that there is no one else with John.

Now if you are saying that charity and good works accompany faith, why not come right out and say: “we are saved by faith and works of charity”? But that has always been the Catholic viewpoint, so you can’t say that.

Are we saved by faith alone? Or are we saved by faith and works of charity?

 

[JonNC]

=Duane1966;13396124]LOL, the difference is you are not saying John is alone, you are saying he is the only one drinking beer.

Actually he is saying John is alone. John, alone, is drinking beer. Father K is drinking wine.
It is a common English usage.

That is a major difference than saying saved by faith alone. Change the order of the sentence to “John drank beer alone” and you get that there is no one else with John.

Why do you get to change the sentence around, or in this case, change the meaning around. Simply because we say that faith alone justifies does not mean that charity is absent.

Now if you are saying that charity and good works accompany faith, why not come right out and say: “we are saved by faith and works of charity”? But that has always been the Catholic viewpoint, so you can’t say that.

Except that while charity must accompany faith, it is not the charity that justifies. It is the faith that justifies. The charity is there. It must be there. But we are justified by grace alone, through faith.

Are we saved by faith alone? Or are we saved by faith and works of charity?

We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, a faith the works through love.

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

Works complete faith. Without the completion of what faith leads us towards, we will not do the will of God.

The Catholic faith does not Teach that either faith or works, raises us to the grace of God. God graced us to receive faith outside of working to deserve it. He comes to us, by the work of Jesus, counting us worthy to be called His brother.

The Teaching of “Faith and Works” means that faith which denies the work which faith shows us to do, not only will not save but make that person more guilty than even the unbeliever.

I don’t think there is a problem with Christians recognizing the grace of justification in the believer outside of any work. This is even a Truth Taught by the Catholic Church. The problem arises when Christians accuse the Catholic Church of wrong Teaching when she says that the final judgement of a man, by Christ alone, is dependant on his/her faith and works.

The issue at stake is upholding the grace of God in our salvation journey. If I felt the Catholic faith diminished God’s grace in our salvation because of any doctrine, I’d walk away and never look back.

 

[rcwitness]

We are justified by grace alone, through faith alone, a faith the works through love.

If you mean that we are justified before doing what faith requires, then we agree. If you say that works of the faith have no part in our justification, I disagree. I disagree because it is not discarding God’s grace to accomplish the works of His will, but on the contrary, it is trusting and depending on His grace, when we do the work of God.

 

[KjetilK]

LOL, the difference is you are not saying John is alone, you are saying he is the only one drinking beer.

Yes, exactly. And that is exactly what is meant by sola fide. Not that faith is alone, but that faith is the only thing through which initial justification is brought about. Just like John alone is drinking beer, but I am there alongside him, drinking wine. This, of course, is an archaic way of speaking English, but it tells us exactly how we ought to understand sola fide.

That is a major difference than saying saved by faith alone. Change the order of the sentence to “John drank beer alone” and you get that there is no one else with John.

That is not how English works. The two sentences – “John alone drank beer” (note the lack of a comma) and “John drank beer alone” – do not express the same meaning. My sentence didn’t say that John was alone, it merely said that he alone was drinking beer. Perfectly traditional English, although perhaps a bit archaic. Written in a more modern way, which requires more words, the sentence would be “John was the only one who drank beer.”

Now if you are saying that charity and good works accompany faith, why not come right out and say: “we are saved by faith and works of charity”? But that has always been the Catholic viewpoint, so you can’t say that.

Because the word in question is not ‘saved,’ but ‘justified.’ Neither Lutherans nor Roman Catholics hold that our initial justification comes by works.

Are we saved by faith alone? Or are we saved by faith and works of charity?

We are saved by a faith that works through love. But our initial justification comes to us by faith alone (but not a faith that is alone), as also Trent teaches.

 

[Duane1966]

No. Faith cannot be alone. Luther himself answers this,
** "We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith.
… It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works.” **

And from his commentary on Galatians:

** THE DOCTRINE OF GOOD WORKS

Now come all kinds of admonitions and precepts. It was the custom of the apostles that after they had taught faith and instructed the conscience they followed it up with admonitions unto good works, that the believers might manifest the duties of love toward each other. In order to avoid the appearance as if Christianity militated against good works or opposed civil government, the Apostle also urges us to give ourselves unto good works, to lead an honest life, and to keep faith and love with one another. This will give the lie to the accusations of the world that we Christians are the enemies of decency and of public peace. The fact is we Christians know better what constitutes a truly good work than all the philosophers and legislators of the world because we link believing with doing. **

We link believing with doing!

Just because you link believing with doing, does not mean others do. Are you saying a person cannot believe in Jesus, and do nothing? Jesus in the parable of the sheep and goats, and James beg to differ. They are both addressing people who quite clearly believe, and yet belief is not good enough. Belief is no guarantee that action will follow.

They are essentials because Christ says they are. Scripture tells us they are. What other reason must there be? I return to Luther’s comment in The Doctrine of Works:
** The fact is we Christians know better what constitutes a truly good work than all the philosophers and legislators of the world because we link believing with doing. **
That’s why we know what good works are. This is what the atheist lacks; the link good works must have with faith.

continued

So Jon, if I have faith, but the works do not follow, there is a good chance I may not be saved correct?

So let’s see:

1.) We are saved by faith alone. Disclaimer, it only saves if works follow. If they do not follow, then faith alone may not save.

2.) We are saved by faith and works. No disclaimer needed.

No. Faith cannot be alone. Luther himself answers this,
"We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a reigned faith.
… It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works.”

Thank you for that quote from Luther. But it clearly runs contrary to scripture. I know you adhere to sola scriptura, and scripture is very clear here:

 James 2:24 You see that a man **is justified by works** and not by faith alone.

Would I be wrong in saying that Luther really missed the boat on this one? But let’s add Paul into this:

Paul states:

Romans 3:28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from** works of law.** (cf. 3:20; 3:24: "justified by his grace as a gift")

But saying “justified by faith” is different from saying “justified by faith alone”.

Jon, if Paul means justified by faith alone, why not just come right out and say: “justified by faith alone”? Why does he put the disclaimer in there of: "works of the law?

 

[KjetilK]

Actually he is saying John is alone. John, alone, is drinking beer. Father K is drinking wine.
It is a common English usage.

No, that is the opposite of what I meant. No comma. “John alone is drinking beer” means that “John is the only one who drinks beer” (though others can be with him, drinking wine), just as “faith alone [initially] justifies” means that “faith is the only thing through which initial justification is brought about” (though works ans love can accompany it). And the love is not our own, but the Love of God which has “been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us” (Rom 5:5).

 

[rcwitness]

Because the word in question is not ‘saved,’ but ‘justified.’ Neither Lutherans nor Roman Catholics hold that our initial justification comes by works.

We are saved by a faith that works through love. But our initial justification comes to us by faith alone (but not a faith that is alone), as also Trent teaches.

…just as “faith alone [initially] justifies” means that “faith is the only thing through which initial justification is brought about” (though works ans love can accompany it). And the love is not our own, but the Love of God which has “been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us” (Rom 5:5).

As far as I know, this is in accordance with the Catholic faith!

 

[Duane1966]

Actually he is saying John is alone. John, alone, is drinking beer. Father K is drinking wine.
It is a common English usage.

You added a comma in there Jon, which changes the meaning again. But in the original statement he said: John alone is drinking beer. You cannot make any inference as to how many people are with John. We definitely know a couple of things:

1.) John is drinking beer.

2.) If there are other people with him, no one else is drinking beer.

Why do you get to change the sentence around, or in this case, change the meaning around. Simply because we say that faith alone justifies does not mean that charity is absent.

But the charity is not needed for justification in your view, so it could be absent correct? if you say no it can’t be absent, then it must be essential to justification.

Except that while charity must accompany faith, it is not the charity that justifies. It is the faith that justifies. The charity is there. It must be there. But we are justified by grace alone, through faith.

James 2:24 You see that a man is** justified by works and not by faith alone.**

 

[rcwitness]

Maybe we could say that we are justified by faith and our faith is then justified by good works?

None of us (Christians) should believe we must work to earn the gift of faith, and the grace of justification. And neither should we assume our faith does not demand to do the will of God.

All Christians who embrace infant Baptism reject a works based justification. And all Christians who embrace the necessity to partake in His Eucharist in a worthy manner reject a faith alone salvation.