Faith and Works

[fhansen]

Here is what I was taught about faith and works:
In English the terms righteousness and justice are different words, but in both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament there is only one word group behind these two English terms…. James is using the word justified in a different sense from the way Paul uses it
God says a person is justified (demonstrated or shown to be righteous to other men) by works and not by faith alone."
God says a person “a person is justified (declared to be righteous by God) by faith alone and not by work.”

How do Catholics respond to this?

It’s obvious to me that both James and Paul were speaking about how a person becomes authentically just/righteous/holy in general, in Gods eyes, IOW. James was addressing the role of faith just as Paul did, but simply correcting the “faith alone” error which was a perversion of Paul’s intent.

 

[JonNC]

It’s obvious to me that both James and Paul were speaking about how a person becomes authentically just/righteous/holy in general, in Gods eyes, IOW. James was addressing the role of faith just as Paul did, but simply correcting the “faith alone” error which was a perversion of Paul’s intent.

Who perverted Paul’s intent?

Jon

 

[rcwitness]

Who perverted Paul’s intent?

Jon

2 Peter 3:15-17

And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

The confusion with this event is because we must first identify who is involved. In v.32 it says all nations shall be gathered. This does not include believers. In scripture, the Church is NEVER referred to as the “nations”. The word nations means ethnicity and therefore would mean the world as a whole. There is also another group in view here. In v.40 is mentioned
“My brethren”. Jesus always identified believers as his brethren. The other possibility is that it is the Jewish people, but I am inclined to believe the former.

And yes, I believe there are “good” unbelievers in the world who will have the opportunity to be saved. God provides every chance he can for people to be redeemed.

Does not dismiss the simple TRUTH that ALL judgement has been given to HIM. He will be the decider. I can assure you that man has not been given the LAST WORD. He judges the heart. He separates the wheat from the chaff.

He is clear, and I mean very clear in saying NOT ALL THOSE WHO CRY OUT LORD will be entering into the Kingdom, but ONLY THOSE WHO DO THE FATHER’S WILL. \

Period.

John 5: 28- 30

28"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Romans Ch 2

Judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

Blessed are the Merciful, for they shall receive HIS MERCY. Not my words. The story of the good Samaritan.

I am not saying Jesus is NOT Lord. I am saying because HE IS LORD, HE WILL HAVE THE LAST WORD.

All judgement has been given UNTO HIM. All of it. I would suggest we get out of the habit of telling people who Jesus will choose so emphatically. I strongly suggest getting out of that habit.

 

[rcwitness]

All judgement has been given UNTO HIM. All of it. I would suggest we get out of the habit of telling people who Jesus will choose so emphatically. I strongly suggest getting out of that habit.

Yes, this is an important foundation to understanding Salvation!

We, like all Christians, believe there is “a” true salvation in the moment we first believe. But who are we to then say, “I will remain saved through the tests which the Father has prepared for me!”

I know men who have gone to a church their whole life, since child to over 40 yrs, and have not been Baptized! They emphatically will claim to be a saved Christian. And I don’t tell them they are not, but do not think it is faithful to presume to know His judgement while neglecting the commandment which forgives sin and enters us into His covenant!

And those who are Baptized as infants are saved, yet must accept the Gospel which made them clean.

We can have confidence when we are faithfully keeping His commandments. But we should never substitute ourselves for the Judge. But give thanks for His mercy which allows us to keep His commandments. We cannot rely on His mercy and continue neglecting His will.

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Yes, this is an important foundation to understanding Salvation!

We, like all Christians, believe there is “a” true salvation in the moment we first believe. But who are we to then say, “I will remain saved through the tests which the Father has prepared for me!”

I know men who have gone to a church their whole life, since child to over 40 yrs, and have not been Baptized! They emphatically will claim to be a saved Christian. And I don’t tell them they are not, but do not think it is faithful to presume to know His judgement while neglecting the commandment which forgives sin and enters us into His covenant!

And those who are Baptized as infants are saved, yet must accept the Gospel which made them clean.

We can have confidence when we are faithfully keeping His commandments. But we should never substitute ourselves for the Judge. But give thanks for His mercy which allows us to keep His commandments. We cannot rely on His mercy and continue neglecting His will.

I just find through my experience that whenever we tell others about the extent of Gods mercy we tread on very dangerous ground.

To me the analogy is this. When WE (nothing more than mere grains of sand essentially) discuss the mercy of God it looks like a man made swimming pool. First, it is “man made.” Ok. It is very limited. There is essentially no life in it. There is NO MYSTERY. It is measured and very finite.

I tend to think of Gods mercy and compare it to the Pacific Ocean as compared to a swimming pool. The Mexicans have a saying about the Pacific Ocean. They say it has NO MEMORY. It is vast and covers far beyond what any mere man can see. There is A LOT OF MYSTERY. It is abundant with life.

We all see (especially those of us who saw The Passion) what Christ endured for us. Do we think that Christ will be using technicalities with us? Again, I do not want to make it sound like I can disregard Him as Lord or say He will simple choose anyone that I think is a “good person.”

I am saying I believe the Blood of the Lamb and the mercy of God is far more than we will ever conceive. The proof is the Blood of the Lamb and suffering He endured. I do not not believe He is looking for reasons to push us away. If that is the case, then what hope is there?

These issues have been used to separate us. These issues have caused wars and people to be actually murdered in the name of the Lord?

Again, my strong suggestion (I do include myself with this cause I am lets just say not a Saint) is we get out of the habit of trying to put limitations based on our very limited abilities to perceive Gods mercy.

 

[fhansen]

Who perverted Paul’s intent?

Jon

Those who added “alone” to his message about the role of faith.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Those who added “alone” to his message about the role of faith.

Nope , James attacked antinomianism, not faith alone which Paul taught

 

[fhansen]

Nope , James attacked antinomianism, not faith alone which Paul taught

No NT figure taught faith alone.

 

[fhansen]

Faith is the beginning or foundation of our justification. It is not the *equivalent *of justice for man in God’s eyes. Love, if anything, is the definition of justice or holiness for man, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are, and why Paul could say in 1 Cor 13 that he is nothing if he has a faith that can move mountains but has not love, or that “…these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love.” And Augustine could say, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

Sometimes it seems that love is almost considered to be a side note to the Christian faith, an accessory, but it’s not-it’s the* core of the gospel. It’s what’s expected from us-and, more importantly, for us. It’s what faith must, but doesn’t necessarily, lead to. As we’re perfected in love, we’re justified. Faith serves as the means *by which we are justified, simply because faith is the authentic avenue to God, the first step to communion with Him. As we humbly come to believe, in His existence first of all and then of His goodness and trustworthiness, we begin to be malleable clay in the hands of the Potter, Who is love, and who seeks to transform us into His image. We begin to work out our salvation with He who works in us.

And love, of necessity and by it’s nature, expresses itself in works. Matt 25:31-46 gives us a good idea of what that looks like.

 

[JonNC]

2 Peter 3:15-17

And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability.

Michael,
What evidence is there that this is referring to those who believed that Paul meant one is justified by faith, and not by works?

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=fhansen;13375416]Faith is the beginning or foundation of our justification. It is not the *equivalent *of justice for man in God’s eyes. Love, if anything, is the definition of justice or holiness for man, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are, and why Paul could say in 1 Cor 13 that he is nothing if he has a faith that can move mountains but has not love, or that “…these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love.” And Augustine could say, “Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing.”

And Luther says essentially the same:

Faith must of course be sincere.** It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith.** Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, “In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing,” i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, “If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing,” is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men.

Sometimes it seems that love is almost considered to be a side note to the Christian faith, an accessory, but it’s not-it’s the* core of the gospel. It’s what’s expected from us-and, more importantly, for us. It’s what faith must, but doesn’t necessarily, lead to. As we’re perfected in love, we’re justified. Faith serves as the means *by which we are justified, simply because faith is the authentic avenue to God, the first step to communion with Him. As we humbly come to believe, in His existence first of all and then of His goodness and trustworthiness, we begin to be malleable clay in the hands of the Potter, Who is love, and who seeks to transform us into His image. We begin to work out our salvation with He who works in us.

I don’t think a Lutheran would disagree.

And love, of necessity and by it’s nature, expresses itself in works. Matt 25:31-46 gives us a good idea of what that looks like.

and from the Book of Concord:

1. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins.

Sola fide does not dispute the necessity of good works. Luther does not dispute the necessity of good works.

Christ tells us in no uncertain terms, that His call is that we do good works. We are to love the Lord our God, and the second like it, love our neighbors as ourselves.

The issue is not whether works are necessary, required of the regenerate.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Those who added “alone” to his message about the role of faith.

Who added alone to Paul’s message at the time 1 Peter was written, that it is referring to?

Who added alone to Paul’s message in a way that Paul had not already limited the how we become justified?

And how do you know this is what the verse is referring to?

Jon

 

[CatholicKnight3]

Just wondering if we all agree.

Jesus has the last word, right? I mean are we all in agreement with that?

 

[JonNC]

Just wondering if we all agree.

Jesus has the last word, right? I mean are we all in agreement with that?

Sure

 

[fhansen]

Who added alone to Paul’s message at the time 1 Peter was written, that it is referring to?

Who added alone to Paul’s message in a way that Paul had not already limited the how we become justified?

And how do you know this is what the verse is referring to?

Jon

I’m really not sure where you’re coming from on this, Jon. As far as I know neither the term nor the concept is used in scripture, except in James 2. We are simply not saved by faith alone, unless one means to squeeze the virtue of love into the meaning of the term “faith”.

When Paul tells us in Phil 3 that he counts his past righteousness, as a Pharisee, as garbage compared to the righteousness of God that comes on the basis of faith rather than on the basis of the law, he’s telling us simply that, apart from God he can do nothing, but with Him all things are possible, to paraphrase some familiar verses. Only with God, in communion with God, as was always intended as the right and normal way, can man realize authentic justice or righteousness, not merely imputed to him but truly wrought in him, as God does a work. That’s always been the purpose, the restoration of justice to God’s universe-man was never created to sin to begin with, after all. But apart from God he will most definitely sin, chaos and disorder reign to one degree or another when God’s left out of the picture. its amazing that he allows just that level of freedom, that we can oppose His will, and that He wants us to contribute our part in aligning with His will even as grace is an essential part of that act/process.

Faith is that restored vital relationship, fulfilling Jer 31:34: “No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD."

Faith is critical as the foundation, but not more than that. If that’s what Luther meant, then better yet.

 

[JonNC]

I’m really not sure where you’re coming from on this, Jon. As far as I know neither the term nor the concept is used in scripture, except in James 2. We are simply not saved by faith alone, unless one means to squeeze the virtue of love into the meaning of the term “faith”.

When Paul tells us in Phil 3 that he counts his past righteousness, as a Pharisee, as garbage compared to the righteousness of God that comes on the basis of faith rather than on the basis of the law, he’s telling us simply that, apart from God he can do nothing, but with Him all things are possible, to paraphrase some familiar verses. Only with God, in communion with God, as was always intended as the right and normal way, can man realize authentic justice or righteousness, not merely imputed to him but truly wrought in him, as God does a work. That’s always been the purpose, the restoration of justice to God’s universe-man was never created to sin to begin with, after all.

Faith is that restored vital relationship, fulfilling Jer 31:34: “No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD."

Faith is critical as the foundation, but not more than that. If that’s what Luther meant, then better yet.

It isn’t a matter of squeezing. Faith alone justifies, but faith is never alone.

Thus faith is a divine work in us, that changes us and regenerates us of God, and puts to death the old Adam, makes us entirely different men in heart, spirit, mind, and all powers, and brings with it [confers] the Holy Ghost. Oh, it is a living, busy, active, powerful thing that we have in faith, so that it is impossible for it not to do good without ceasing. 11] Nor does it ask whether good works are to be done; but before the question is asked, it has wrought them, and is always engaged in doing them. But he who does not do such works is void of faith, and gropes and looks about after faith and good works, and knows neither what faith nor what good works are, yet babbles and prates with many words concerning faith and good works. 12] [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.

If we agree, then better yet.

Jon

 

[fhansen]

It isn’t a matter of squeezing. Faith alone justifies, but faith is never alone.

If we agree, then better yet.

Jon

OK. I can never quite decide if we’re on the same page or not-there’s still a somewhat foreign taste to Luther’s words for me-but it’s close. Thanks, Jon

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

There is still a difference. Catholic theologians say that faith alone does not justify. Lutheran theologians say that it is faith alone that justifies, though true faith will infallibly lead one to perform good works. This is what the Formula of Concord has to say about it.

[42] Many disputations also are usefully and well explained by means of this true distinction, of which the Apology treats in reference to the passage James 2:20. For when we speak of faith, how it justifies, the doctrine of St. Paul is that faith alone, without works, justifies, Rom. 3:28, inasmuch as it applies and appropriates to us the merit of Christ, as has been said. But if the question is, wherein and whereby a Christian can perceive and distinguish, either in himself or in others, a true living faith from a feigned and dead faith, (since many idle, secure Christians imagine for themselves a delusion in place of faith, while they nevertheless have no true faith,) the Apology gives this answer: James calls that dead faith where good works and fruits of the Spirit of every kind do not follow. And to this effect the Latin edition of the Apology says: Iacobus recte negat, nos tali fide iustificari, quae est sine operibus, hoc est, quae mortua est. That is: St. James teaches correctly when he denies that we are justified by such a faith as is without works, which is dead faith.

[43] But James speaks, as the Apology says, concerning the works of those who have already been justified through Christ, reconciled with God, and obtained forgiveness of sins through Christ. But if the question is, whereby and whence faith has this, and what appertains to this that it justifies and saves, it is false and incorrect to say: Fidem non posse iustificare sine operibus; vel fidem, quatenus caritatem, qua formatur, coniunctam habet, iustificare; vel fidei, ut iustificet, necessariam esse praesentiam bonorum operum; vel bona opera esse causam sine qua non, quae per particulas exclusivas ex articulo iustificationis non excludantur. That is: That faith cannot justify without works; or that faith justifies or makes righteous, inasmuch as it has love with it, for the sake of which love this is ascribed to faith [it has love with it, by which it is formed]; or that the presence of works with faith is necessary if otherwise man is to be justified thereby before God; or that the presence of good works in the article of justification, or for justification, is needful, so that good works are a cause without which man cannot be justified, and that they are not excluded from the article of justification by the particulae exclusivae: absque operibus etc., that is, when St. Paul says: without works. For faith makes righteous only inasmuch as and because, as a means and instrument, it lays hold of, and accepts, the grace of God and the merit of Christ in the promise of the Gospel.
bookofconcord.org/sd-righteousness.php#para42

This may seem like an academic distinction, but it wasn’t for the Reformers. Luther called this the chief article, and this doctrine (justification sola fide) was thought by the Reformers to be sufficient justification for severing themselves from the Church.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

There is still a difference. Catholic theologians say that faith alone does not justify. Lutheran theologians say that it is faith alone that justifies, though true faith will infallibly lead one to perform good works. This is what the Formula of Concord has to say about it.

This may seem like an academic distinction, but it wasn’t for the Reformers. Luther called this the chief article, and this doctrine (justification sola fide) was thought by the Reformers to be sufficient justification for severing themselves from the Church.

It’s Definitely not just an academic distinction , justification ( sola gratia and sola fide ) is what the church stands or falls on