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fhansen
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Didn’t you say that your explanation doesn’t reject free will? There* is* something good in us, of course: the image of God, no matter how obscured or covered over or weakened it may be. And that is what God appeals to with His grace, He wants to elicit our free choice, to draw our wills into alignment with His, without force. This is a quote from the council of Trent, cited in para 1993 of the catechism:
"When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight."
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benhur
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Hi f,
Correct we have free will yet we are not free to decide for God because are will is corrupted, bent on evil, and that is how we or what we decide for (evil), and consequently decide against God. As Trent states, without God’s grace we are not free to decide for Him.
Really, not sure anyone teaches we are still good due to the obvious “made in His image”. That is like saying God lied, and Adam did not "die’ the day he ate the apple. Obscure, weaken, cover are not the correct words. Die is the word. I mean does God appeal to our good heart much less good will ? No, he gives us a new heart and a new will(regeneration).
Again, as already stated, we are body, soul and spirit , with a will, all in His image originally but now dead to Him. Nothing good in ourselves. To say that because God arrests, and convicts, and converts that which He made does not make that which He made "good’’ . That which He made is at enmity with Him since the fall, the “goodness” gone.
Blessings
R
rcwitness
Guest
Lots of “speculation” here,… no?
I don’t know enough of this mystery to make any assertions.
I wouldn’t assume there is nothing good (from God) in the fallen man. As long as we are in this life, we have good gifts from God in us as His creatures created in His image. We can definitely abuse these good gifts, which bring condemnation on us. But it doesn’t mean that we are without any good. It just means that we do not use the good things for His glory.
Did God not say, “my Spirit shall not be with man more than 120 years.” ?
Also, we don’t know when Adam and Eve were saved, right? It seems that they were given the consequence of their actions, but were also given hope that He provided for them life and hope. He did not just send them to hell and say they were completely devoid of everything good. They were to be fruitful and multiply.
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benhur
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Maybe it has something to do with striving to enter into His rest. Also that there is saving faith and not, and there is a work led by the spirit and work in the flesh, and all this since the Garden of Eden.
Blessings
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guanophore
Guest
Then you are probably in for a pleasant surprise!
The JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION is a published work designed to clear up the misconceptions that spawned the Reformation (or at least this part of them!)
Yes.
Catholics reject the concept of Total Depravity. We espouse the Apostolic teaching that Human beings are made in the image and likeness of God. Our human nature, called “good” by God at our creation, was marred when sin entered the world. The image of God remains, but without grace, we are unable to act in accordance with that image. So yes, there is “good”, but it is not sufficient to return us to right relationship with God.
This statement is not consistent with the Scripture, or with the Apostolic teaching. God created in us a desire to seek Him, so we do so , even though we are unable to achieve right relationship with Him without grace. This statement is more consistent with a total depravity concept (Calvin).
Yes.
I understand the concept, and as you will see from the JDDC, I don’t disagree with any of it except for the phrase “faith alone”, since Scripture teaches us that faith is never alone.
Thank you, I need them. We are having a winter storm and I almost got trapped in the mountains tonight!
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guanophore
Guest
Yes.
I think we are talking about apples and oranges here. Obscure, weaken, cover etc refer to how sin affects the image of God in us. Death is the consequence of sin. Clearly, Adam did not immediately die, but was ejected from the Garden. His ability to walk in righteousness with God died, and we have inherited this consequence. God did not lie, but neither did sin completely undo the good He created.
God appeals to the heart and the will, the desire that He HImself created within us to seek Him, and to find Him.
Separated, but not dead. Unable to become what we are meant to be until we are restored by grace.
This is not consistent with Scripture or Apostolic Teaching.
There is nothing in ourselves that can restore us to right relationship.
Enmity, yes, but the goodness is not gone.
This is why Paul can write about those who have never heard the Gospel that they can act in accordance with their conscience and do well.
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benhur
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guanophore
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The Church teaches that all who are validly baptized are members of His One Body, the Church. Yes, Baptism is the remission of sins, but most of us do not die right after baptism, so the expectation remains that we will live a life worthy of the grace that has been afforded in baptism. I think this is entirely consistent with Lutheran beliefs, is it not?
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fhansen
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The Church teaches that, at Baptism, the virtues of faith, hope, and charity are infused in us, in a habitual sense so long as we don’t compromise that state later by sin/turning away from God, turning against love. These virtues, as we continue through life, become increasingly “our own”, as we choose them, affirming our baptismal vows. Or not. In any case faith, as both Augustine and St Paul made clear, can exist without love, but then our justice is far from complete.
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fhansen
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The “death of the soul”, as Trent put it, means essentially that man is no longer in communion with God. And that lack of communion with and subjugation to Him is the reason why we fail in maintaining our moral integrity. It’s *not *that we assumed some kind of “sin nature”. Our natures remained the same- human natures- but without the aid of grace, God’s life in us. Man is lost and fallen, and this doesn’t translate to “totally depraved”.
So the analogy runs thusly: In Catholicism 1) salvation is impossible unless God throws a life preserver, but 2) man can refuse to grab onto it even as he’s aided in doing so, and 3) even if he* does *grab hold, he can always let go at any point between there and safe haven. In Calvinism 1) salvation is impossible unless God throws a life preserver, and 2) He places the life preserver on the person (the elect), and 3) He ensures that the life preserver stays on all the way to safe haven. What you’re telling me is that you agree with Calvinism on the first and second point, whereas I believe you’d disagree on the third.
The goodness is never all gone, as if God’s handiwork could be completely blotted out. I think if we’re honest we’ll see evidence of that goodness in many areas of human life; Good Samaritans aren’t lacking, including non-believing ones.
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KjetilK
Guest
OK. My bad.
But it doesn’t really change my point. Because you still seem to contrast faith – as such – with works – as such. But natural faith cannot save us. Just as natural works cannot contribute to our sanctification (and thus, our salvation). So what separates faith – as such – with works – as such – is NOT that the one is a gracious gift of God, and the other not, but that prior to our (initial) justification any work we do – including any act of faith – will be purely natural.
So the point remains. Faith saves us because it is divine, not merely because it is faith. And we cannot do anything (not even have faith), of ourselves, in a way that earns us the forgiveness required for us to be (initially) justified.
Therefore it is not correct to say that faith isn’t a work. Yes, it is a gift, but it is till something we DO, albeit by the grace of God.
“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29, RSV-CE)
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benhur
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and do you not have to have faith in order to be baptized ? Are unbelievers baptized ? Of course not, yet the statement was that faith did not put you into the body of Christ, that you need hope and charity. It did not mention baptism.
Baptism is more than forgiveness of sins. It is for communicating the Holy Spirit ,to regenerate make born again. Much more than just forgiveness of sins. Again,that is counter to say faith (even as expressed in baptism) does not put you into the Body of Christ. To say you are not in the Body until your first good work of charity, or that being "worthy’’ of that grace sounds precariously counter to works coming after faith,and all or both by grace.
Blessings
Z
zz912
Guest
Salvation is a process. You aren’t finally saved until you die in a state of grace. Looking at salvation as a one-time event is dangerous and contrary to the Christian faith and Scripture. Without works, you lose your salvation.
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rcwitness
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Well, there is initial salvation/justification. But to not do good works is denying the faith.
Justifying works are those done through faith. And this faith understands that God’s grace has, does and will provide the means for us to accomplish the will of God in our lives.
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fhansen
Guest
We need to show ourselves worthy of the grace received. God judges on what we’ve done with what we’ve been given: time, opportunity, revelation/knowledge, grace. The thief on the cross didn’t even have time for baptism, but he did the right thing to the extent he could.
We don’t come into the body by our first good work, rather our entrance into the body entails being granted those gifts which make us genuinely just. Faith provides the means to that entry; it doesn’t constitute entrance into the Body, entrance into the justice God would have for us, as if faith were enough on it’s own.
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benhur
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Hi f,
All I know is that one must have faith, and certainly hope,* before* one’s water baptism. I also know one can not have these things (faith and hope, in Christ) in the old wine skin, the old carnal nature, but are received and flow out of a new, regenerated spirit and heart, in faith thru grace.
I see baptism as affirming what is our own in Christ thru faith already.
Again, we all agree in walking out the faith after the initial "saving’’/ justification. We call it sanctification, or living a holy (set apart for God) life. Has nothing to do with justice, which works on merit or demerit. We are under the law of grace now, justice being met by our Savior.
Blessings
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rcwitness
Guest
How do you “know” this? If we are talking about adults, then we agree 100%! Adults must assent to the faith, which Baptism brings and personally graces. Infants are brought to this faith and grace through the faith and duty of their Christian parents, in the promise to continue their duty to instruct the child in the Gospel which brought their Baptism.
Yes, and rejecting baptism is denying the faith too.
Remember not to “go outside” what James Teaches infallibly
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?*You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
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benhur
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That is a contradiction of terms.
If anything some pray to be* made* worthy, which at least show it is God’s doing. Still I think we labor to enter into His rest and avoid the contradiction…
Absolutely.
Right, he had to rest solely on God’s grace and provision thru the gift of faith and regeneration. And as at the beginning, so also in the middle and end. (resting is not "not doing’’, but doing out of the flow of the Holy Ghost and grace, not from the flesh or because we have to do it to be worthy. We are worthy already, and hence the thief spoke, did something out of an abundant new heart).
Not sure what you mean by "genuinely’’ ,but i would think the justice due Christ is imputed to us,unless you mean we become genuinely perfect in thought and deed.
Right what many say is “faith alone”.
Sorry fhansen, I can not help but to see that as wrong and hence convoluted. Faith is the means but the ends is a work (that which gets you into the body) ? Is this what reformers saw as a religion of works and had to clarify with the word "alone’’ ? Is that the final sum of the CC teaching on this ? I mean you just posted, “We don’t come into the body by our first good work,”. me sees that as speaking out of both sides of mouth
I understand the role of works in the part after entrance by faith, regeneration, even baptism. There are works in the the middle and the end of the journey, but it is foreign to me to hear a "work’’ begins, gets us into, the journey. To met that is like saying a baby is not a baby until they leave the womb.
Blessings
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fhansen
Guest
Justice is justice; we either possess it or we don’t. We’re either snow-covered dung-heaps or we’re righteous, even as we must strive and struggle to maintain and increase that righteousness, that gift from God as He proceeds to place His law in our hearts and write it on our minds. Justification cannot be separated from sanctification. Salvation is based on our being made just, and so salvation is a process which is “worked out” together with He who works in us. This is why even Paul said in Phil 3 that he was striving, not yet having attained to the resurrection.
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