Faith and Works

[zz912]

Did not say Paul would lose his ministry , but reward or that some works/rewards might get burned up as you say.It is not all or nothing, but but full reward or less than what could have been. Even your verse of burning up says one can still be saved , though by the skin of his teeth.

Blessings

No, Paul did not say he would lose his ministry. You keep repeating that, but Paul never said it.

Paul mentions that we will receive blessing in Heaven for our good deeds, and suffer loss in Purgatory for our bad deeds. But he ALSO says that even he could lose his salvation. He even warns many times those he is writing to that they could lose their salvation.

 

[JonNC]

OK. My bad.

But it doesn’t really change my point. Because you still seem to contrast faith – as such – with works – as such. But natural faith cannot save us. Just as natural works cannot contribute to our sanctification (and thus, our salvation). So what separates faith – as such – with works – as such – is NOT that the one is a gracious gift of God, and the other not, but that prior to our (initial) justification any work we do – including any act of faith – will be purely natural.

So the point remains. Faith saves us because it is divine, not merely because it is faith. And we cannot do anything (not even have faith), of ourselves, in a way that earns us the forgiveness required for us to be (initially) justified.

Therefore it is not correct to say that faith isn’t a work. Yes, it is a gift, but it is till something we DO, albeit by the grace of God.

“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29, RSV-CE)

Your last sentence, Father, doesn’t match John 6. John 6:29 says it is a work of God So, yes, faith, in that way, is indeed a work: a work of God.
Otherwise, again, we seem to agree.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

=guanophore;13439734]

For the record, I was articulating my understanding of the Lutheran position here, so I am glad I got it right. On the contrary, I believe the CC teaches as Father KjetilK has stated “Our ‘Spirit-filled’ works have soteriological value. If we do not live according to what we have been given, we will not be saved. Salvation cannot be reduced to our initial justification”.

Hi Guan,
I want to be clear here, so I am quoting CA, which both Father K and I adhere to:

Article IV: Of Justification.
1] Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for 2] Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. 3] This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 and 4.

And

First, that our works cannot reconcile God or merit forgiveness of sins, grace, and justification, but that we obtain this only by faith when we believe that we are received into favor for Christ’s sake, who alone has been set forth the Mediator and Propitiation, 1 Tim. 2:5, in order that the Father may be reconciled through Him. 10] Whoever, therefore, trusts that by works he merits grace, despises the merit and grace of Christ, and seeks a way to God without Christ, by human strength, although Christ has said of Himself: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14:6.

Here the CA is clear regarding justification, and this is what I believe.

Later:

Furthermore, it is taught on our part that it is necessary to do good works, not that we should trust to merit grace by them, but because it is the will of God. 28] It is only by faith that forgiveness of sins is apprehended, and that, for nothing. 29] And because through faith the Holy Ghost is received, hearts are renewed and endowed with new affections, so as to be able to bring forth good works. 30] For Ambrose says: Faith is the mother of a good will and right doing. 31] For man’s powers without the Holy Ghost are full of ungodly affections, and are too weak to do works which are good in God’s sight. 32] Besides, they are in the power of the devil who impels men to divers sins, 33] to ungodly opinions, to open crimes. This we may see in the philosophers, who, although they endeavored to live an honest life could not succeed, 34] but were defiled with many open crimes. Such is the feebleness of man when he is without faith and without the Holy Ghost, and governs himself only by human strength.

The necessity of works is clear here, and their source is the Holy Ghost.
I certainly believe that doing good works has an impact on us, and I think one grows by our cooperation with the Spirit.

No, I am not offended, but I think it is a mistake. The CC does not teach that anyone can be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, (since it is Pelagianism). It represents a rebellion against a postion that the CC has never believed or taught, but at the time and place where it was written, it may well have seemed that this is what was believed and taught.

I think this has been adquately addressed in the joint declaration now.

I think so, too.

And for Catholics, supplement and cause that faith to grow, and sanctify us so the are more able to remain in the state of grace into which we were baptized. This is a continuation of justification.

Perhaps this is the difference. We agree that sanctification is necessary for justification to exist.

Jon

 

[fhansen]

Your last sentence, Father, doesn’t match John 6. John 6:29 says it is a work of God So, yes, faith, in that way, is indeed a work: a work of God.
Otherwise, again, we seem to agree.

Jon

We can always resist/reject the work of God. Our cooperation is still required.

 

[JonNC]

We can always resist/reject the work of God. Our cooperation is still required.

Absolutely. Our cooperation is impossible without the work of the Spirit in us. But our unwillingness is possible, as well.

Jon

 

[fhansen]

Absolutely. Our cooperation is impossible without the work of the Spirit in us. But our unwillingness is possible, as well.

Jon

ok, so we can resist the Spirit; God won’t save us without our consent.

 

[rcwitness]

ok, so we can resist the Spirit; God won’t save us without our consent.

With all due respect, I believe men like JonNC and Fr. KjetilK are definitely aware that our consent is involved in our salvation. It’s part of accepting the gift of faith with belief in God’s good work for us, who could not do any works which deserve the reward of heaven.

I think there is very little in the way of Lutherans, such as these, and Catholics. There were attitudes which caused division during the reformation on both sides of the debates. Many genuine Lutherans have such close fellowship with the Catholic faithful that only preferences in how we articulate matters seem to be in the way of a great communion!

Lutherans seem to have issues within their conscience to profess that works of faith have part in our “enduring” justification. It’s understandable, for me. But I also don’t have a problem with my conscience, when I accept, as the Church Professes, that our initial justification was given to us apart from works. If it wasn’t , then Christ’s Incarnation, life of obedience, and Passion would not have been necessary. But we were not faithful to the Law, so Christ needed to humble Himself above the law, so He had power over the law, for our sake.

The works of faith/charity, which have a part in our justification, do not “bring” our justification, but complete the faith which “realized” God’s grace of forgiveness through Jesus. Faith is not a one time event, but a means to see God’s Will for our journey with Him.

For those of us who stumble now and then, we have His Sacrament of Reconciliation to pick us up again.

 

[guanophore]

Hi G,

Do not think he is saying he has not attained salvation. What he has not attained is full reward for doing the ministry as laid out before the foundation of the earth. You do believe in rewards (beyond entry into the kingdom) for service do you not? The apostles were not so much wrong in bickering or vying to be at the Lord’s right hand in the kingdom to come, but more that they did not know how to attain it and who granted it. Paul did not want to lose the spot that was ordained for him , or get a lesser spot because he stopped pressing, which is different than giving up or even forsaking all faith.

Blessings

This is what you have been taught to believe. I was taught it also, but it cannot be substantiated by Scripture, and is contrary to the faith of the Church, up to the time of the Reformation, from which it emanates.

 

[rcwitness]

Originally Posted bybenhur

Do not think he is saying he has not attained salvation. What he has not attained is full reward for doing the ministry as laid out before the foundation of the earth. You do believe in rewards (beyond entry into the kingdom) for service do you not? The apostles were not so much wrong in bickering or vying to be at the Lord’s right hand in the kingdom to come, but more that they did not know how to attain it and who granted it. Paul did not want to lose the spot that was ordained for him , or get a lesser spot because he stopped pressing, which is different than giving up or even forsaking all faith.

This is what you have been taught to believe. I was taught it also, but it cannot be substantiated by Scripture, and is contrary to the faith of the Church, up to the time of the Reformation, from which it emanates.

I agree guanophore,

But there are aspects of what dronald is saying which we acknowledge in our faith. For example, we believe in Initial Justification, where we are “saved” into the life of our Lord. We are forgiven and given the gift of faith. But, like you said, Scripture shows that this doesn’t assure us that we will endure to the end.

We also believe that through Purgatory, He will judge our deeds and reveal what merits glory and what merits suffering. Here, we have endured in faith, but have not overcome faults through faith in this world.

So there is judgement which separates those He acts to heaven from those He casts out, and there is judgment for deeds done by those who will be saved also.

Matthew 24

“But he who endures to the end will be saved.”

“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?**Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing.**Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.*But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’**and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eats and drinks with the drunken,*the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know,**and will punish him, and put him with the hypocrites; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

 

[KjetilK]

Your last sentence, Father, doesn’t match John 6. John 6:29 says it is a work of God So, yes, faith, in that way, is indeed a work: a work of God.
Otherwise, again, we seem to agree.

Yes, it is a work of God. He is the primary cause, we are secondary causes.

 

[benhur]

No, Paul did not say he would lose his ministry. You keep repeating that, but Paul never said it.

Paul mentions that we will receive blessing in Heaven for our good deeds, and suffer loss in Purgatory for our bad deeds. But he ALSO says that even he could lose his salvation. He even warns many times those he is writing to that they could lose their salvation.

Hi zz’

No I never said that but maybe I should .I am thinking of Jimmy Swaggert , or a few other once popular tv evangelists who fell into sin, later repented but lost a good part of their ministry. Their integrity suffered so also the power to preach and "testify’’ like they once had. However I do not believe any of them “lost their salvation”. I believe this is no new phenomenon, and any preacher needs the utmost integrity to persevere. Paul knew this , hence the one discourse in writing that was posted, about keeping his flesh under gracious control.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Hi zz’

No I never said that but maybe I should .I am thinking of Jimmy Swaggert , or a few other once popular tv evangelists who fell into sin, later repented but lost a good part of their ministry. Their integrity suffered so also the power to preach and "testify’’ like they once had. However I do not believe any of them “lost their salvation”. I believe this is no new phenomenon, and any preacher needs the utmost integrity to persevere. Paul knew this , hence the one discourse in writing that was posted, about keeping his flesh under gracious control.

Blessings

How about if they had not repented, or if their repentance was not at all sincere?

 

[TonyBS]

Absolutely. Our cooperation is impossible without the work of the Spirit in us. But our unwillingness is possible, as well.

Jon

One also has to consider how deep that Unwillingness has permeated the human conscious in the world of today. It may be more than just “possible” but more like "Likely’ we are unwilling.

Detachment and prayer needed to consider this.

This worth considering when we consider what Works & Faith are all about

Matthew 13:14 - In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

It is applicable to all of us.

Regards Tony

 

[fhansen]

With all due respect, I believe men like JonNC and Fr. KjetilK are definitely aware that our consent is involved in our salvation. It’s part of accepting the gift of faith with belief in God’s good work for us, who could not do any works which deserve the reward of heaven.

Well, I’m sure Fr Kjetilk is aware of that, and apparently JonNC as well. I’m just not always certain of the side Lutheranism ends up on in the monergism vs synergism debate. Either way yes, I was emphasizing that point-that we must at least *do something, *which is to consent. We are not in any way made to do so even if we’re enabled to- so the part we play is critical. And this continues to play out through our whole lives-unto judgment day.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Well, I’m sure Fr Kjetilk is aware of that, and apparently JonNC as well. I’m just not always certain of the side Lutheranism ends up on in the monergism vs synergism debate. Either way yes, I was emphasizing that point-that we must at least *do something, *which is to consent. We are not in any way made to do so even if we’re enabled to- so the part we play is still critical.

We are Monergistic.

Keep the faith fhansen , Starwars

 

[TonyBS]

How about if they had not repented, or if their repentance was not at all sincere?

To me discussing others is not appropriate, would not these passages be worth considering

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Matthew 7:2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4"Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?…

Matthew 7:1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you".

many passages of advice in the Bible re this and thus all we have to do is be concerned that we do as God instructed us and then leave the rest to God.

Regards Tony

 

[fhansen]

We are Monergistic.

Keep the faith fhansen , Starwars

Ok. Monergistic yet with the ability to resist God’s grace? We’re monergistic as well as far as believing that God, alone, saves. And yet man can still reject the justification required for salvation-we can refuse to cooperate either at the beginning or at any point in between then and our final judgment.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Ok. Monergistic yet with the ability to resist God’s grace? We’re monergistic as well as far as believing that God, alone, saves. And yet man can still reject the justification required for salvation-we can refuse to cooperate either at the beginning or at any point in between then and our final judgment.

Yes you can resist God’s grace , that is a tenant of lutheran monergism ( luthers view and that of other Lutheran reformers )

 

[fhansen]

To me discussing others is not appropriate, would not these passages be worth considering

Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Matthew 7:2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4"Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye?…

Matthew 7:1"Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you".

many passages of advice in the Bible re this and thus all we have to do is be concerned that we do as God instructed us and then leave the rest to God.

Regards Tony

Oh. It’s not about judging them* individually*; its an academic theological question regarding whether or not one can lose their salvation, which is what that post was addressing…

 

[fhansen]

Yes you can resist God’s grace , that is a tenant of monergism

Ok, but not Calvinistic monergism. Either way I think I understand the Lutheran position now, if not necessarily Luther’s position on the matter.