Faith and Works

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This is what you have been taught to believe. I was taught it also, but it cannot be substantiated by Scripture, and is contrary to the faith of the Church, up to the time of the Reformation, from which it emanates.
Hi g’

Of course anything we believe has been taught us. As mentioned in an earlier post, both positions are reasonable, just that I think one is more reasonable to the text.

As far as history, and church interpretation, well maybe the CC has the up there (1500 yrs vs 500), but maybe it is a tie. Maybe the early church had it the reformed way, so maybe it is 1000 to 1000 years. Not sure when we have a father giving Church interpretation on the Pauline discourse for the first time.

And as I like to quote Job in such reasoning’s of historical age as interpretive justification, the older should have wisdom, but does not always. God places understanding in whom He will, even the younger sometimes.

Blessings
 
The question is whether or not we can resist that grace-the gift of faith-to refuse it and not be saved. Do we need to respond, and can we refuse to do so, or does God cause us to respond in spite of our wills? Are our wills infallibly moved to accept and believe in Christ unto justification without our consent?
A conundrum.

Some have told the story of a pilgrim getting to the pearly gates . The pilgrim first reads a sign saying," Saved before the foundations of the Earth were laid". He passes thru and on the back side of the gate is a sign reading, “Well done good and faithful servant. You have chosen wisely in whom to serve.”

Blessings
 
A conundrum.

Some have told the story of a pilgrim getting to the pearly gates . The pilgrim first reads a sign saying," Saved before the foundations of the Earth were laid". He passes thru and on the back side of the gate is a sign reading, “Well done good and faithful servant. You have chosen wisely in whom to serve.”

Blessings
yes, blessed synergism. 🙂
 
Nah, got to be a better word. (Monergism? book of Concord site post #335 above)

Does God regenerate, make born again, because we believe, or in order to believe ?
He graces us in order to believe-and so be regenerated. But He doesn’t force it upon us then or force us to retain it later. We can always say “no”.
 
It does not help me with an official document. It makes me wonder if American Lutheranism has been contaminated by Calvanism?

I also cannot figure out how, if grace is resistable, it can be monergism. It seems to me (unless you define the term differently) salvation would require the consent/participation of the recipient, which rules out the basic sense of monergism.
Grace is resistable due to our sinfulness ( total depravity), not to free will

Consent = trust that GOD has does the work and receiving what God has done hence not synergy ( meeting God half way )
 
Grace is resistable due to our sinfulness ( total depravity), not to free will
Respectfully, that’s not the way I read CA.
Article XVIII: Of Free Will.
1] Of Free Will they teach that man’s will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work 2] things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man 3] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2:14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received 4] through the Word. These things are said in as many words by Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good 5] or evil. “Good” I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn diverse useful arts, or whatsoever good 6]pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. “Evil” 7] I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc. 8] They condemn the Pelagians and others, who teach that without the Holy Ghost, by the power of nature alone, we are able to love God above all things; also to do the commandments of God as touching “the substance of the act.” For, although nature is able in a manner to do the outward work, 9] (for it is able to keep the hands from theft and murder,) yet it cannot produce the inward motions, such as the fear of God, trust in God, chastity, patience, etc.
Jon
 
He graces us in order to believe-and so be regenerated. But He doesn’t force it upon us then or force us to retain it later. We can always say “no”.
As you might guess, I believe the latter, we are graced thru regeneration in order to believe. The old man does not get graced to believe, otherwise there is something good in him. The new man believes, the old man put to death, and that daily.

Blessings
 
Lutheranism is monergistic with reference to our initial justification, but so is Roman Catholicism.

Lutheranism, however, is NOT monergistic with reference to salvation as such, as this includes sanctification. Luther had no problem using the Latin term cooperatio. See Knut Alfsvåg, “God’s fellow workers: The understanding of the relationship between the human and the divine in Maximus Confessor and Martin Luther” (Studia Theologica 62, 2008): 175-193, esp. p.184.
Thank you for the reference, Father.
 
Grace is resistable due to our sinfulness ( total depravity), not to free will

Consent = trust that GOD has does the work and receiving what God has done hence not synergy ( meeting God half way )
Is total depravity part of Lutheranism?

I think we are having a semantics problem with the concept of synergism. When Catholics speak of synergism, we mean consent = trust that God has done the work and receiving what God has done.

He does not save us against our will.
 
Ours only in the sense that we receive faith, and do not reject it. and our ability to receive faith is only because of grace.
Yet, we still have to to actually believe, do the act of faith.
 
Is total depravity part of Lutheranism?

I think we are having a semantics problem with the concept of synergism. When Catholics speak of synergism, we mean consent = trust that God has done the work and receiving what God has done.

He does not save us against our will.
Right. He just kills (breaks, numbs, stupefies, sets aside, for burial) our will and gives us His. Again, this is at the beginning, at least. The old man wills to receive and trust nothing from God.

Blessings
 
Right. He just kills (breaks, numbs, stupefies, sets aside, for burial) our will and gives us His. Again, this is at the beginning, at least. The old man wills to receive and trust nothing from God.

Blessings
This does sound Calvanist.

I do not think this position is consistent with the Scriptures.
 
This does sound Calvanist.

I do not think this position is consistent with the Scriptures.
Hi g,

Yes, some Calvin, and some scripture. For sure He enables one’s will, and why ? Because it is unable on its own, and why ? Is it dead in sin? Is it at enmity with God ? How do I will what I once loathed ? If there is anything good in us before reconciliation why do we symbolize our death in water baptism ? Is that putting to death good and bad? Do not see how the old nature can “believe”.

Blessings
 
Hi g,

Yes, some Calvin, and some scripture. For sure He enables one’s will, and why ? Because it is unable on its own, and why ? Is it dead in sin? Is it at enmity with God ? How do I will what I once loathed ? If there is anything good in us before reconciliation why do we symbolize our death in water baptism ? Is that putting to death good and bad? Do not see how the old nature can “believe”.

Blessings
I think the problem we are having is about what the “old man” really means.

The Apostles taught that mankind is created in the image and likeness of God, and that sin has marred that image, and made us incapable of returning to right relationship with God without His help.

But they also taught that our nature is designed to seek him and yearn for him, despite that we cannot reach him.

We can see this when Paul is addressing the pagans in Athens in Acts 17:

22So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-opagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28for
‘In him we live and move and have our being’; **
as even some of your poets have said,
‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29
Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead.”

I think we will agree that his audience is not regenerated, and yet, Paul appeals to them on the basis of divinely implanted desire to seek God, and the image of God that is within us.

We can see this same argument at work in Romans 2, where Paul talks about those who follow their conscience (though they are not rejenerated).

4When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16*on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So it would seem that the “old man” or the “sin nature” does not replace the image of God in us.
 
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