Faith and Works

[Starwarsfan2]

So, you ARE a Calvinist, then?

Nope not a Calvinist, Augsburg confession Article XVIII free will , teaches total depravity " but it has no power withou the Holy Ghost to work the righteousness of God "

 

[fhansen]

As you might guess, I believe the latter, we are graced thru regeneration in order to believe. The old man does not get graced to believe, otherwise there is something good in him. The new man believes, the old man put to death, and that daily.

Blessings

As you can guess, I disagree. Grace produces faith in us and faith re-establishes the communion with God that was shattered at the Fall, the lack of that communion or relationship being the definition of spiritual death for man, the “death of the soul” as Trent put it.

 

[guanophore]

Nope not a Calvinist, Augsburg confession Article XVIII free will , teaches total depravity " but it has no power withou the Holy Ghost to work the righteousness of God "

I fear you are misinformed. This is not total depravity.

monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/depravity.html

According to total depravity, nothing Cornelius did could please God.

Acts 10:1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms liberally to the people, and prayed constantly to God. 3About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, “Cornelius.” 4And he stared at him in terror, and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, **“Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. **5And now send men to Joppa, and bring one Simon who is called Peter; 6he is lodging with Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the seaside.” 7When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those that waited on him, 8and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.

 

[rcwitness]

I think the problem we are having is about what the “old man” really means.

The Apostles taught that mankind is created in the image and likeness of God, and that sin has marred that image, and made us incapable of returning to right relationship with God without His help.

But they also taught that our nature is designed to seek him and yearn for him, despite that we cannot reach him.

We can see this when Paul is addressing the pagans in Athens in Acts 17:

22So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-opagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28for
‘In him we live and move and have our being’; **
as even some of your poets have said,
‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead.”

I think we will agree that his audience is not regenerated, and yet, Paul appeals to them on the basis of divinely implanted desire to seek God, and the image of God that is within us.

We can see this same argument at work in Romans 2, where Paul talks about those who follow their conscience (though they are not rejenerated).

4When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16*on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So it would seem that the “old man” or the “sin nature” does not replace the image of God in us.

Good post. We can do nothing “good” or “eternal” without God’s grace. And His grace of salvation came immediately after our fall, since Adam and Eve were forgiven and given hope and promise. They were also given the grace to offer acceptable sacrifices to God, since their children did so also.

The fulness and source of God’s grace came known to us in time, when Jesus was made flesh and dwelt with us, taking on our sins to the ultimate point of death. But still, even through this necessary grace, we are changed to cooperate with Him, not arbitrarily be chosen or condemned without opportunity of willful conversion or remaining apart from Him.

 

[fhansen]

I think the problem we are having is about what the “old man” really means.

The Apostles taught that mankind is created in the image and likeness of God, and that sin has marred that image, and made us incapable of returning to right relationship with God without His help.

But they also taught that our nature is designed to seek him and yearn for him, despite that we cannot reach him.

We can see this when Paul is addressing the pagans in Athens in Acts 17:

22So Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-opagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To an unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28for
‘In him we live and move and have our being’; **
as even some of your poets have said,
‘For we are indeed his offspring.’
29Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the Deity is like gold, or silver, or stone, a representation by the art and imagination of man. 30The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and of this he has given assurance to all men by raising him from the dead.”

I think we will agree that his audience is not regenerated, and yet, Paul appeals to them on the basis of divinely implanted desire to seek God, and the image of God that is within us.

We can see this same argument at work in Romans 2, where Paul talks about those who follow their conscience (though they are not rejenerated).

4When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16*on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

So it would seem that the “old man” or the “sin nature” does not replace the image of God in us.

Great post.

 

[JonNC]

And how did I teach contrary to this article?
Because I have never taught peleganism nor free will

Keep the faith Jon , Starwars

You said, “Grace is resistable due to our sinfulness ( total depravity), not to free will”.
According to CA, our ability to resist grace is precisely because of free will. Adam and Eve, when not under original sin and total depravity, used their free will to resist and disobey God.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Is total depravity part of Lutheranism?

Here’s a reasonably good Lutheran understanding of Total Depravity.

I think we are having a semantics problem with the concept of synergism. When Catholics speak of synergism, we mean consent = trust that God has done the work and receiving what God has done.

** [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.** - Luther

He does not save us against our will.

Correct.

Jon

 

[fhansen]

Here’s a reasonably good Lutheran understanding of Total Depravity.

** [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.** - Luther

Correct.

Jon

So then, this would mean that man can resist the gift-the grace-of justifying faith, correct?

 

[JonNC]

So then, this would mean that man can resist the gift-the grace-of justifying faith, correct?

Yes. The article on free will in the Augsburg Confession was approved by the Roman confutators

Jon

 

[Starwarsfan2]

So then, this would mean that man can resist the gift-the grace-of justifying faith, correct?

Yep.

 

[Starwarsfan2]

Here’s a reasonably good Lutheran understanding of Total Depravity.

** [Justifying] faith is a living, bold [firm] trust in God’s grace, so certain that a man would die a thousand times for it [rather than suffer this trust to be wrested from him]. And this trust and knowledge of divine grace renders joyful, fearless, and cheerful towards God and all creatures, which [joy and cheerfulness] the Holy Ghost works through faith; and on account of this, man becomes ready and cheerful, without coercion, to do good to every one, to serve every one, and to suffer everything for love and praise to God, who has conferred this grace on him, so that it is impossible to separate works from faith, yea, just as impossible as it is for heat and light to be separated from fire.** - Luther

Correct.

Jon

Good article

 

[KjetilK]

Our actions, Father, are the result of faith, in response to faith. Faith is indeed active.

I’m talking about faith itself. To put trust in someone, and to believe someone, is an act itself. It may be a mental act, or a spiritual act. But it is still an act.

 

[KjetilK]

Nope not a Calvinist, Augsburg confession Article XVIII free will , teaches total depravity " but it has no power withou the Holy Ghost to work the righteousness of God "

That is not total depravity (at least not the Calvinist doctrine). While total depravity doesn’t necessarily mean that man is just sinful through and through (this is the usual distortion of the doctrine), it states that every part of man is influenced by sin, and that man cannot do anything good in and of itself.

The Lutheran doctrine, however, doesn’t say that sin alone deprives us of the power to work righteousness before God, but that we couldn’t do it if we were sinless either. It is basically rooted not in sin, but in the radical and essential difference between God - who gives - and man - who receives.

While ‘total depravity’ could be considered a proper term for this in purely linguistic terms (as we are deprived, as creatures) from being like God (the creator), the term has now become a technical term for the Calvinist doctrine.

So we shouldn’t use it. Just like a socialist who wasn’t a internationalist would be pretty stupid - PR wise - to call himself a ‘national socialist.’

 

[benhur]

I think the problem we are having is about what the “old man” really means.

Probably, at least.

The Apostles taught that mankind is created in the image and likeness of God, and that sin has marred that image, and made us incapable of returning to right relationship with God without His help

Right. Something happened* that day *of the fall , a type of death (unless you think that day meant hundreds of years later with their physical death).

But they also taught that our nature is designed to seek him and yearn for him, despite that we cannot reach him.

Well of course the design is always there, even a shadow of it, but the sin is that we do not seek and yearn for Him, though we should as Paul says. We do not have the moral ability, and hence, " No man seeks after God. All have gone astray". Just as you say we can not reach Him makes you not pelagious, so total depravity I would think only means the same, not denying that we are man, once made in His image and thusly in need to seek Him for reconciliation but that we can not on our own… The need and the ability to meet it are two different things.

Blessings

 

[rcwitness]

The Lutheran doctrine, however, doesn’t say that sin alone deprives us of the power to work righteousness before God, but that we couldn’t do it if we were sinless either. It is basically rooted not in sin, but in the radical and essential difference between God - who gives - and man - who receives.

Makes sense to me…

I wouldn’t think the Catholic Church is opposed to this. Do you believe that a “non-Christian” (in the sense of one who has not heard and rejected the proper Gospel) can have the “natural” grace from God (such as their conscience) to choose what is right in God’s sight?

I think this was Paul’s point, which Guanophore posted, in referring to the Gentiles (a few, perhaps) who do what the law requires, even though they don’t have the law. They have the guidance of their hearts if following their God given conscience.

Yet believing in this does NOT mean believing that the old man merits salvation apart from the grace of God (especially in Christ)! But that all men throughout history are afforded grace in their very creation and ability to follow (and strengthen) their conscience. Those who have the Law are given more knowledge and communion with God, but sometimes this proves to only add condemnation on us!

 

[guanophore]

You said, “Grace is resistable due to our sinfulness ( total depravity), not to free will”.
According to CA, our ability to resist grace is precisely because of free will. Adam and Eve, when not under original sin and total depravity, used their free will to resist and disobey God.

Jon

Here’s a reasonably good Lutheran understanding of Total Depravity.

Thank you!
JonNC;13456941:

Yes. The article on free will in the Augsburg Confession was approved by the Roman confutators

Jon

May the affirmations reunite us.

 

[guanophore]

  Probably, at least.

Right. Something happened* that day *of the fall , a type of death (unless you think that day meant hundreds of years later with their physical death).

I am not prepared to reject that.

Well of course the design is always there, even a shadow of it, but the sin is that we do not seek and yearn for Him, though we should as Paul says. We do not have the moral ability, and hence, " No man seeks after God. All have gone astray".
Blessings

It seems to me that a great deal of scripture needs to be set aside to embrace this view.

You are also taking this statement of Paul out of context. If you look at the context in Psalms, it is clear that the writer is contrasting the faithful from the unfaithful.

It is so disheartening when people who claim to love scripture snatch verses from their context like this.

The Psalmist (53) characterizes the group about which he writes:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.

Paul used this verse to illustrate that there were unbelieving Jews as well as unbelieving Gentiles.

 

[zz912]

Hi g,

Yes, some Calvin, and some scripture. For sure He enables one’s will, and why ? Because it is unable on its own, and why ? Is it dead in sin? Is it at enmity with God ? How do I will what I once loathed ? If there is anything good in us before reconciliation why do we symbolize our death in water baptism ? Is that putting to death good and bad? Do not see how the old nature can “believe”.

Blessings

Wouldn’t this view demand that babies without baptism be damned to hell?

 

[benhur]

Wouldn’t this view demand that babies without baptism be damned to hell?

HI zz,

I think we have to understand and as others have pointed out rightly, that God will judge us by what we have been given, or have heard or not heard as far as His Word, even by the Holy Ghost, and even by His creation. We know for sure that blaspheming the Holy Ghost, who can speak to man thru all things, damns one to hell. So while a baby might not believe, been regenerated, they have also not blasphemed the Holy One.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

I am not prepared to reject that.

It seems to me that a great deal of scripture needs to be set aside to embrace this view.

You are also taking this statement of Paul out of context. If you look at the context in Psalms, it is clear that the writer is contrasting the faithful from the unfaithful.

It is so disheartening when people who claim to love scripture snatch verses from their context like this.

The Psalmist (53) characterizes the group about which he writes:

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity; there is none who does good.

Paul used this verse to illustrate that there were unbelieving Jews as well as unbelieving Gentiles.

Hi g,

Thanks for your responses. You (actually all posters) have me thinking. I do like and feel I experienced most things said here on our depravity, and would even call it total. (though I also read that there are slight variations held).

I agree that the faithful and unfaithful are compared. So when I say or scripture says none seek after God all have gone astray, I am not speaking about the faithful. However i am speaking of humanity in general, before any are called out, to be faithful. There is also the conundrum though none seek after God, the Lord says seek and ye shall find, and he is rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. Yet it must be understood eventually by the lost seeker that he seeks not because he is righteous, even free enough to do so on his own, but as other scripture says, “No one goes to the Father, except thru the Son” and no one goes to the Son unless “he first* be drawn *by the Father”. It is the Holy Spirit that really convicts of sin, righteousness and judgement to come, and that by the Gospel, and if not that, by nature itself as you pointed out. Again, it is His goodness that draws us, and the more the lost sinner comes to realize their own depravity in the matter , the better He looks, and the more we are broken. Much forgiven, much loved. A broken heart he can not refuse.

Blessings