Faith and Works

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HI zz,

I think we have to understand and as others have pointed out rightly, that God will judge us by what we have been given, or have heard or not heard as far as His Word, even by the Holy Ghost, and even by His creation. We know for sure that blaspheming the Holy Ghost, who can speak to man thru all things, damns one to hell. So while a baby might not believe, been regenerated, they have also not blasphemed the Holy One.

Blessings
I wouldn’t argue with this. I hope we don’t get into the realm of infants salvation too much here. It’s something in God’s hands and we will never know til we are on the other side.

We Baptize our children because “the Kingdom belongs to them”. His forgiveness is given to them, and they receive it without… “blaspheming” as you put it. But, for some reason, Jesus uses their disposition as an example for us receiving also. As a child.
 
I wouldn’t argue with this. I hope we don’t get into the realm of infants salvation too much here. It’s something in God’s hands and we will never know til we are on the other side.

We Baptize our children because “the Kingdom belongs to them”. His forgiveness is given to them, and they receive it without… “blaspheming” as you put it. But, for some reason, Jesus uses their disposition as an example for us receiving also. As a child.
Hi rc,

Thank you. I think an infant, newborn is different than a child. But yes, a child has less or no spiritual defense mechanisms to ward off spiritual convictions, promptings. An adult must be broken (of such defenses) maybe even turning into a “cry baby” over his sin and God’s goodness. Again, a broken heart he can not refuse. Thanks again.

Blessings
 
Hi rc,

Thank you. I think an infant, newborn is different than a child.
when I said child, I meant a person before the age of reason. Generally from birth to about 7 yrs.
But yes, a child has less or no spiritual defense mechanisms to ward off spiritual convictions, promptings.
Not sure what you mean by “spiritual convictions, promptings”. If you mean the development of reason for proper understanding, then I agree.
An adult must be broken (of such defenses) maybe even turning into a “cry baby” over his sin and God’s goodness. Again, a broken heart he can not refuse. Thanks again.
An adult has the ability to understand and respond to God’s conviction, so yes, an adult must assent to the Spirit by faith in order to do the Lord’s will.

Being forgiven, accepted into the Church and Taught the Gospel is one thing (principally through Baptism and faith instruction by Teaching and example), personally believing after the age of reason and culpability is another.
 
HI zz,

I think we have to understand and as others have pointed out rightly, that God will judge us by what we have been given, or have heard or not heard as far as His Word, even by the Holy Ghost, and even by His creation. We know for sure that blaspheming the Holy Ghost, who can speak to man thru all things, damns one to hell. So while a baby might not believe, been regenerated, they have also not blasphemed the Holy One.

Blessings
So the baby is not totally depraved then. Depravity is in varying degrees, and there is something redeeming and worthwhile in man that God values.

The belief of total depravity requires babies to be damned to hell.
 
So the baby is not totally depraved then.
Well the baby is certainly helpless, in and of themselves. The lost adult is pretty much the same spiritually. i think that is what is meant by depravity, total.
Depravity is in varying degrees,
Not sure about that.
and there is something redeeming and worthwhile in man that God values.
Absolutely, just that the lost man is helpless to see that
The belief of total depravity requires babies to be damned to hell.
Never heard that. Is that like someone quipping the old Catholic erroneous belief/practice that an unbaptized baby goes to hell ?

Blessings
 
Not sure what you mean by “spiritual convictions, promptings”. If you mean the development of reason for proper understanding, then I agree.
No . I think I meant a a child can understand, feel, sense love, good will, and that coming from God/Jesus when told the ‘news’, and has not developed cynical , fallen reasoning against it yet.

Blessings
 
So the baby is not totally depraved then. Depravity is in varying degrees, and there is something redeeming and worthwhile in man that God values.
**
The belief of total depravity requires babies to be damned to hell**.
The main reason why baptizing them is so important. Otherwise, we depend on mercy and grace.

Jon
 
Well the baby is certainly helpless, in and of themselves. The lost adult is pretty much the same spiritually. i think that is what is meant by depravity, total. Not sure about that.Absolutely, just that the lost man is helpless to see that
Man is not helpless to see that he has been made in the image and likeness of God. All one must do is accept what is written in the Holy Scriptures is true.
Never heard that. Is that like someone quipping the old Catholic erroneous belief/practice that an unbaptized baby goes to hell ?

Blessings
The Apostles taught that baptism is necessary for salvation. We know that nothing unclean is allowed in heaven, and we know that we are all stained by original sin. Perhaps it is not correct to jump to the conclusion that the unbaptized go to hell, but it is a logical conclusion given the facts. As it is, we entrust them to the mercy of God.
 
So the baby is not totally depraved then. Depravity is in varying degrees, and there is something redeeming and worthwhile in man that God values.

The belief of total depravity requires babies to be damned to hell.
The main reason why baptizing them is so important. Otherwise, we depend on mercy and grace.
This all depends on what you mean by ‘total depravity.’ I have heard some claim that it only means that without God we are incapable of being saved (that we cannot save ourselves). That is pretty much the Lutheran position, but it is in fact a distortion of the Calvinist position, and it reveals that some might not know the difference between being depraved (i.e. being evil or wicked) and being deprived (i.e. lacking something essential).

It seems to me that the main difference between Lutheranism (and I would add Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism) and Calvinism is that the former believes in ‘total deprivation,’ while the latter believes in ‘total depravity.’ And we see this difference clearly when we see that for Calvinism, ‘total depravity’ is due to sin.

In I.15.8Institutes, Calvin writes (emphasis added):

To this he has joined will, to which choice belongs. Man excelled in these noble endowments in his primitive condition, when reason, intelligence, prudence, and Judgment, not only sufficed for the government of his earthly life, but also enabled him to rise up to God and eternal happiness. Thereafter choice was added to direct the appetites, and temper all the organic motions; the will being thus perfectly submissive to the authority of reason. In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life. It were here unseasonable to introduce the question concerning the secret predestination of God, because we are not considering what might or might not happen, but what the nature of man truly was. Adam, therefore, might have stood if he chose, since it was only by his own will that he fell.

And in his commentary on Gen 3:19, Calvin writes, “Truly the first man would have passed to a better life, had he remained upright; but there would have been no separation of the soul from the body, no corruption, no kind of destruction, and, in short, no violent change.”

If we read the context of these quotations, and especially the emphasised parts of the first one, we see that Calvin held that Adam was created in a natural state whereby he could have earned his salvation, and that consequently total depravity came through the fall, due to sin.

According to Lutheranism (and Luther), however, man cannot do anything except by the grace of God, and that goes for his prelapsarian state as well. Lutheranism maintains that in the relationship between God and man (including the eternal happiness to which Calvin points), God always gives and man always receives. And furthermore, that even when man gives something to, or does something for, God, it is a gift of God. Even though this is about our postlapsarian, post-Regeneration lives, I think this principle is clear in Phil. 2:12-13: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Salvation from sin, then, doesn’t change this fact. In heaven we well be equally dependent on grace to do al that we do (at least as regards the relationship between God and man). For Calvinism, it seems, grace is only applicable to the fallen man, while for Lutheranism man cannot do anything by his own nature (at least as regards the relationship between God and man) without the aid of God, even before the fall.
 
Code:
This all depends on what you mean by ‘total depravity.’ I have heard some claim that it only means that without God we are incapable of being saved (that we cannot save ourselves).
This is what the Apostles taught.
That is pretty much the Lutheran position, but it is in fact a distortion of the Calvinist position, and it reveals that some might not know the difference between being depraved (i.e. being evil or wicked) and being deprived (i.e. lacking something essential).
Yes. It seems more accurate to use the term deprived. I am not sure why Calvin wanted to use a non-Scriptural term/concept for this. :confused:
It seems to me that the main difference between Lutheranism (and I would add Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Anglicanism) and Calvinism is that the former believes in ‘total deprivation,’ while the latter believes in ‘total depravity.’ And we see this difference clearly when we see that for Calvinism, ‘total depravity’ is due to sin.
I agree with how you note the difference, but I think that the clarity with Calvanism more with the concept of being created in the image and likeness of God. Calvin seems to believe that sin “erased” what God gave us in creation.
Code:
In [*Institutes*](http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iii.xvi.html) I.15.8, Calvin writes (emphasis added):
To this he has joined will, to which choice belongs. Man excelled in these noble endowments in his primitive condition, when reason, intelligence, prudence, and Judgment, not only sufficed for the government of his earthly life, but also enabled him to rise up to God and eternal happiness. Thereafter choice was added to direct the appetites, and temper all the organic motions; the will being thus perfectly submissive to the authority of reason. In this upright state, man possessed freedom of will, by which, if he chose, he was able to obtain eternal life. It were here unseasonable to introduce the question concerning the secret predestination of God, because we are not considering what might or might not happen, but what the nature of man truly was. Adam, therefore, might have stood if he chose, since it was only by his own will that he fell.

And in his commentary on Gen 3:19, Calvin writes, “Truly the first man would have passed to a better life, had he remained upright; but there would have been no separation of the soul from the body, no corruption, no kind of destruction, and, in short, no violent change.”

If we read the context of these quotations, and especially the emphasised parts of the first one, we see that Calvin held that Adam was created in a natural state whereby he could have earned his salvation, and that consequently total depravity came through the fall, due to sin.
I don’t understand it that way. I think Calvin is saying that Adam was created in a state where he was not depraved, and was able to choose the good. He had no need to “earn” salvation, since he was created in a state of right relationship with God. His state was more like the angels, created to be in fellowship wth God, but his state was lost when he chose to rebel against God.
According to Lutheranism (and Luther), however, man cannot do anything except by the grace of God, and that goes for his prelapsarian state as well. Lutheranism maintains that in the relationship between God and man (including the eternal happiness to which Calvin points), God always gives and man always receives. And furthermore, that even when man gives something to, or does something for, God, it is a gift of God. Even though this is about our postlapsarian, post-Regeneration lives, I think this principle is clear in Phil. 2:12-13: “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”
This seems consistent with what the Apostles believed and taught.
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Salvation from sin, then, doesn’t change this fact. In heaven we well be equally dependent on grace to do al that we do (at least as regards the relationship between God and man). For Calvinism, it seems, grace is only applicable to the fallen man, while for Lutheranism man cannot do anything by his own nature (at least as regards the relationship between God and man) without the aid of God, even before the fall.
I agree, except that, before the Fall, he was already in a right relationship with God, created in a state of grace, so to speak.
 
I don’t understand it that way. I think Calvin is saying that Adam was created in a state where he was not depraved, and was able to choose the good. He had no need to “earn” salvation, since he was created in a state of right relationship with God. His state was more like the angels, created to be in fellowship wth God, but his state was lost when he chose to rebel against God.
But the problem comes when Calvin denies that God provied, or needed to provide, any grace in the prelapsarian state (which is clear from his separation between the prelapsarian ‘covenant of works’ and the postlapsarian ‘covenant of grace’).
I agree, except that, before the Fall, he was already in a right relationship with God, created in a state of grace, so to speak.
Yes, but that is exactly what Calvinism denies. They maintain that grace is only needed due to sin. We, on the other hand, maintain that grace is always needed due to the essential difference between the Creator (who gives) and the creatures (who receive).
 
Well the baby is certainly helpless, in and of themselves. The lost adult is pretty much the same spiritually. i think that is what is meant by depravity, total.
So a baby and an unsaved, lost adult are the same spiritually? So you hold that babies are sent to the deepest pits of hell.

That’s simply not a God that I can fathom or comprehend.
Never heard that. Is that like someone quipping the old Catholic erroneous belief/practice that an unbaptized baby goes to hell ?
There’s never been official teaching from the Church on the destination of unbaptized babies. Some have put forth the theory that they go to Limbo, a state of perfect natural (not supernatural) existence, others have said they go to the first level of hell, similar to Limbo, in that they experience no pain or suffering, but do not have the Beatific Vision. Others have theorized that they do gain admittance to the Beatific Vision. These are all theories. The Church entrusts them to the mercy of God and urges for quick baptism of all babies.
 
The main reason why baptizing them is so important. Otherwise, we depend on mercy and grace.

Jon
I don’t understand that statement. If a baby is totally depraved, why would there be a hope of mercy and grace?
 
I don’t understand that statement. If a baby is totally depraved, why would there be a hope of mercy and grace?
Why would you question God’s grace and mercy? With faith comes hope. We hope because we believe in a gracious, merciful God.
This is an issue that the Catholic Church, too, has wrestled with, as I recall, with the idea of Limbo, etc.
The fact is that no one is able to come to God, choose to come to God, without His grace and mercy. That’s what total depravity means. Father K can give deeper theological insight, but ISTM essentially, total depravity is a rejection of Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism.

An infant is no different. Christians who are orthodox in their teaching recognize the necessity of baptism, and in this case, infant Baptism. It is through baptism that we are rescued from sin, death, and the Devil. For the infant who dies before Baptism, we pray, and hope, for His grace and mercy.

Jon
 
I don’t understand that statement. If a baby is totally depraved, why would there be a hope of mercy and grace?
Two points. (1) Jon might mean deprived rather than depraved. (2) Can God not be gracious towards a depraved person?
 
Two points. (1) Jon might mean deprived rather than depraved. (2) Can God not be gracious towards a depraved person?
  1. maybe, then it would seem to make some sense.
  2. we are talking about those who have died. How long is His judgment postponed after death?
 
  1. maybe, then it would seem to make some sense.
  2. we are talking about those who have died. How long is His judgment postponed after death?
Cannot God give grace to them before they die? And isn’t grace something that is given totally freely, without us earning it? It seems that if it is on the basis of works, then grace would no longer be grace.
 
Man is not helpless to see that he has been made in the image and likeness of God. All one must do is accept what is written in the Holy Scriptures is true.
So man can help himself to this acceptance ?
The Apostles taught that baptism is necessary for salvation.
Sometimes they did, and sometimes they did not.
We know that nothing unclean is allowed in heaven, and we know that we are all stained by original sin.
Again, some say we are washed by faith, and others adding baptism.
Perhaps it is not correct to jump to the conclusion that the unbaptized go to hell, but it is a logical conclusion given the facts.
It is not logical at all, given all we know about God and His ways .
As it is, we entrust them to the mercy of God.
Amen. Mercy and grace, just like the rest of us.

Blessings
 
So a baby and an unsaved, lost adult are the same spiritually?
In that they are both helpless, yes.
So you hold that babies are sent to the deepest pits of hell.
No.
There’s never been official teaching from the Church on the destination of unbaptized babies. Some have put forth the theory that they go to Limbo, a state of perfect natural (not supernatural) existence, others have said they go to the first level of hell, similar to Limbo, in that they experience no pain or suffering, but do not have the Beatific Vision. Others have theorized that they do gain admittance to the Beatific Vision. These are all theories. The Church entrusts them to the mercy of God and urges for quick baptism of all babies.
Understand . That is why i also included practice. That is, irregardless of what is not taught or taught officiallly , that is what many have believed (that they do not go to heaven), and acted upon it.

Blessings
 
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