Faith and Works

[fhansen]

Yes, it is pretty much exactly the point I made in posts #383 and #385, where I point out that the Lutheran position is that we always need grace, and that this is not primarily due to sin.

Contrary to the Calvinist position, where the man could achieve glory without grace in prelapsarian state, but needs grace in the postlapsarian state, due to sin, Lutheranism holds that we always need grace (and that man also needed grace in the prelapsarian state to achieve glory) due not primarily to sin, but due to the essential difference between the Creator (who gives) and the creatures (who receive).

Another way of putting it is simply that man needs God. Grace is His life in us. Without Him we have no life. Adam effectively rejected that grace, that communion-and died.

 

[KjetilK]

Another way of putting it is simply that man needs God. Grace is His life in us. Without Him we have no life. Adam effectively rejected that grace, that communion-and died.

Yes, grace is bascically God communicating his life to us. Now that happens through Christ, who is both God and man, through the communication of attributes or idioms (communicatio idiomatum).

 

[benhur]

This is a Calvanist position.

Maybe on one point, but scripture also says the Lord must graciously enable our willing (or as posted by fhansen , to" desire").

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Maybe on one point, but scripture also says the Lord must graciously enable our willing (or as posted by fhansen , to" desire").

Blessings

Our Catechism puts it this way:
**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42**

The Holy Spirit prompts our cooperation and assent; He does not guarantee it. God won’t completely overwhelm our wills, even as he draws them, though He certainly could overwhelm them. But that is not His purpose. Apparently our own justice is bound up with our willingness to obey, to accept Him, to choose life over death, good over evil. He endeavors to *elicit *that free cooperation even as we need help in doing so.

 

[benhur]

It is an innovation that baptism has anything to do with testimony “before man”. This does not come from the Apostolic teaching.

I understand Never the less, one can not be baptized or should be baptized, unless they testify, confess, faith in Christ, and not just to God, but to a ‘man’ (elder/baptizer).

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” Rom 10:9.

Peter instructed them to enter the waters of baptism to wash away their sins. Scripture is clear that baptism is not for cleansing the body, but the soul. No “ritual water bath” can wash away sins. Only the HS can do that.

yes, amen, by the washing of regeneration, by renewal of the Holy Ghost.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Our Catechism puts it this way:
**1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42**

The Holy Spirit prompts our cooperation and assent; He does not guarantee it. God won’t completely overwhelm our wills, even as he draws them, though He certainly could overwhelm them. But that is not His purpose. Apparently our own justice is bound up with our willingness to obey, to accept Him, to choose life over death, good over evil. He endeavors to *elicit *that free cooperation even as we need help in doing so.

Thank you. Again we are back to not 100% God , but some of our good will ? Not sure what “completely overwhelm” is or is not, or is it even against ‘free will’.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

When does a covenant come into force? When we agree to the covenant, or when we perform the necessary actions of the covenant?

One can not perform the “necessary actions” unless they have already received the fruit of that new covenant, new life in Christ. Hence not by works of righteousness (necessary actions) are we saved. Yet I agree that once we agree, are regenerated, we follow with any necessary actions, and that not for new life, but to show , or because we already have it.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Sure. Baptism does not guarantee conversion unto these changes. It’s not magic. Neither is is empty of God’s promise.

I believe the "magic’ takes place before any baptism. No guarantee needed. I mean you are alive in Christ.The change has already occurred, the promise fulfilled. Now to show good conscience be baptized.

Actually, my Scripture was from St Paul’s Baptism, where he was revealed Truth and commanded to go to a devout Jew to be healed and Baptized. It was not from a change which occurred in Paul before hand.

OK. Not sure Paul is good example of sequence, that is for effectualness of the baptism. I think if Paul thought baptism was effectual (necessary for regeneration) he would not have said, “I am glad I did not baptize any of you” (for your boasting).

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Thank you. Again we are back to not 100% God , but some of our good will ? Not sure what “completely overwhelm” is or is not, or is it even against ‘free will’.

Blessings

Some theologies maintain that God moves us to freely accept His will. But this is not true freedom-it’s a contradiction in terms in fact.* We* are in the picture, to one degree or another. As Augustine put it, “He who created you without your consent does not save you without your consent.” This has been God’s purpose from the beginning: the restoration of justice to His universe, actually the formation of even greater justice yet, ultimately.

There’s a reason for the Fall, for allowing it, other than just sort of arbitrarily saving some and damning the rest in the end. As we freely choose to align ourselves with God’s perfect will, we begin to achieve our own perfection, with the help of grace, a perfection that flows from Him to begin with, as our own beings do. That’s God’s business, the process of perfecting His creation. We’re in a “state of journeying to perfection” as the catechism puts it. He* wants* us to play a role, however small, but increasingly more and more. For our sake.

 

[guanophore]

Maybe on one point, but scripture also says the Lord must graciously enable our willing (or as posted by fhansen , to" desire").

Blessings

Yes, but enabling is not equal to regenerating. Calvanist theology claims that we cannot be moved by grace to choose, but that we must first be regenerated before we can choose.

I understand Never the less, one can not be baptized or should be baptized, unless they testify, confess, faith in Christ, and not just to God, but to a ‘man’ (elder/baptizer).

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved” Rom 10:9.

In the early days of the Church, especially after persecution arose, baptism was often done in secret or in secluded places. Only those who were known to the community were admitted to reduce betrayal and martrydom. This modern innovation that it is some sort of “public testimony” of faith is absurd in comparison to the early practice of the Church.

yes, amen, by the washing of regeneration, by renewal of the Holy Ghost.

Blessings

The Apostles never separated the regeneration fo the Holy Ghost from the water through which it occurred.

 

[guanophore]

I believe the "magic’ takes place before any baptism. No guarantee needed. I mean you are alive in Christ.The change has already occurred, the promise fulfilled. Now to show good conscience be baptized.

This is a Calvanist position.

OK. Not sure Paul is good example of sequence, that is for effectualness of the baptism. I think if Paul thought baptism was effectual (necessary for regeneration) he would not have said, “I am glad I did not baptize any of you” (for your boasting).

Blessings

This would be an erroneous conclusion. In reading all of what Paul wrote on baptism, it is quite clear he deems it essential. This passage is being taken out of context to support the erroneous conclusion. He is talking about factions, and how people were becoming allied based upon who baptized them. Paul is making the point that it is irrelevant who performed the baptism, not that it is unimportant.

 

[a_priori]

Faith and works have an analog in quantum mechanics. Space and time are two manifestations of the same thing, hence spacetime. Faith and works are ontologically the same thing. They are a continuum with one completing the other, and one being the other. “Faith without works is dead.”

 

[rcwitness]

I believe the "magic’ takes place before any baptism.

Depends what you mean by “magic” here, but if you mean conversion, then I believe it can and does happen before Baptism with some and with others after. Generally, the only time it happens after is in the cases of infant Baptisms. An adult is called to assent to the faith at Baptism, so unless he is being deseitful, he/she already testifies and consents to the Baptism. In the adult, the believer is willfully obeying the command.

No guarantee needed.

I agree, and because none is given, except the guarantee of God’s promises. In the case of Baptism, it is forgiveness of Original and Actual sin.

I mean you are alive in Christ.The change has already occurred, the promise fulfilled. Now to show good conscience be baptized.

An adult convicted by the Spirit to receive Baptism is living in Christ already. Peter calls Baptism “an appeal for a clean conscience”. You don’t bathe after you are clean, but to become clean. The water is not for the dirt of the body, but the means which His Word fashioned our Christian initiation and personal reception of the grace of forgiveness.

OK. Not sure Paul is good example of sequence, that is for effectualness of the baptism. I think if Paul thought baptism was effectual (necessary for regeneration) he would not have said, “I am glad I did not baptize any of you” (for your boasting).

As guanophore pointed out, Paul wasn’t undermining Baptism’s importance and purpose, rather that it doesn’t come from himself. It comes from the one who was crucified for us. Apparently some were coming to various conclusions of leadership. Paul reminded them to follow Jesus. Following Jesus will lead to one judgement and one mind.

 

[Vico]

I believe the "magic’ takes place before any baptism. No guarantee needed. I mean you are alive in Christ.The change has already occurred, the promise fulfilled. Now to show good conscience be baptized.
OK. Not sure Paul is good example of sequence, that is for effectualness of the baptism. I think if Paul thought baptism was effectual (necessary for regeneration) he would not have said, “I am glad I did not baptize any of you” (for your boasting).

Blessings

I think you refer to baptism of desire. Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4

Council of Trent

This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

 

[benhur]

Some theologies maintain that God moves us to freely accept His will. But this is not true freedom-it’s a contradiction in terms in fact.* We* are in the picture, to one degree or another. As Augustine put it, “He who created you without your consent does not save you without your consent.” This has been God’s purpose from the beginning: the restoration of justice to His universe, actually the formation of even greater justice yet, ultimately.

There’s a reason for the Fall, for allowing it, other than just sort of arbitrarily saving some and damning the rest in the end. As we freely choose to align ourselves with God’s perfect will, we begin to achieve our own perfection, with the help of grace, a perfection that flows from Him to begin with, as our own beings do. That’s God’s business, the process of perfecting His creation. We’re in a “state of journeying to perfection” as the catechism puts it. He* wants* us to play a role, however small, but increasingly more and more. For our sake.

Good stuff , but again He enables our “consent”. Everything is God’s business, for before the Earth was formed He chose us, and we Him.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Yes, but enabling is not equal to regenerating. Calvanist theology claims that we cannot be moved by grace to choose, but that we must first be regenerated before we can choose.

Well then Calvinist still believe it is by grace that we choose, thru regeneration. One side says we are good enough to choose in our fallen state, the other says no, only gracious regeneration enables everything.

Otherwise we can ‘see’, even understand, the kingdom without being born again.

This modern innovation that it is some sort of “public testimony” of faith is absurd in comparison to the early practice of the Church.

It is not just a public testimony, but by its very nature is a testimony, here on this Earth, in and by and to the church. The ‘testimony’ is primary, not the ‘public’ . What might also be absurd is for the participant to say they* will be* regenerated instead of that they have already, and are taking their first step of faith and obedience to that fact.

The Apostles never separated the regeneration fo the Holy Ghost from the water through which it occurred.

New life is discussed by them with out referencing water baptism. In fact it is shown to happen without it sometimes.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

Depends what you mean by “magic” here, but if you mean conversion, then I believe it can and does happen before Baptism with some and with others after. Generally, the only time it happens after is in the cases of infant Baptisms. An adult is called to assent to the faith at Baptism, so unless he is being deseitful, he/she already testifies and consents to the Baptism. In the adult, the believer is willfully obeying the command.

Sounds good but what is conversion? Is it regeneration, which I am inclined to believe ?

I agree, and because none is given, except the guarantee of God’s promises. In the case of Baptism, it is forgiveness of Original and Actual sin.
An adult convicted by the Spirit to receive Baptism is living in Christ already. Peter calls Baptism “an appeal for a clean conscience”. You don’t bathe after you are clean, but to become clean. The water is not for the dirt of the body, but the means which His Word fashioned our Christian initiation and personal reception of the grace of forgiveness.

I think you can be forgiven but still in need of a clean conscience. The 3000 biggest sin was denying the Christ even demanding crucifixion, and this they did publicly. I believe they were forgiven before the water baptism, for they gladly went under, and came out with clean conscience, for once they publicly denied the Christ ,now to the church and world , they show forth the reverse.

As guanophore pointed out, Paul wasn’t undermining Baptism’s importance and purpose, rather that it doesn’t come from himself. It comes from the one who was crucified for us. Apparently some were coming to various conclusions of leadership

Understand. Agree that who performs the rite should not be a big deal, and more so because the figure of what baptism represents, that reality, is bigger.

Blessings

 

[fhansen]

Good stuff , but again He enables our “consent”. Everything is God’s business, for before the Earth was formed He chose us, and we Him.

Blessings

The difference is in that we can always ‘resist the enabling’. God didn’t force Adam to obey; He doesn’t force obedience now. That’s never been His will. Otherwise He may as well of avoided all the drama and evil that followed and just stocked heaven with some and hell with the rest, from the beginning. Instead He’s been patiently working with and on our wills.

 

[benhur]

I think you refer to baptism of desire. Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4

Council of Trent

This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

Thank you Vico,

The laver of regeneration is effectual, and can and does happen before water baptism in my opinion.

Blessings

 

[benhur]

The difference is in that we can always ‘resist the enabling’. God didn’t force Adam to obey; He doesn’t force obedience now. That’s never been His will. Otherwise He may as well of avoided all the drama and evil that followed and just stocked heaven with some and hell with the rest, from the beginning. Instead He’s been patiently working with and on our wills.

Well yes, but He must break that old will first before the new will can emerge. Both are my wills, yet all His doing, somehow.

Thanks.Blessings