Faith apart from works

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Mammoths said:
What would faith alone include that faith apart from works does not?

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=DRA

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=DRA
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Seems that Paul is saying that cutting off some little piece of flesh as a legalistic exercise plays no part in ones justification or salvation, whereas James is saying that if one fails to help their brother or sister in time of need they certainly will not be in a good place in terms of their justice and salvation. And this all jives with many other portions of their writings along with the gospel: we’re to obey by the spirit, not the letter, God judges by the heart, and they’d all agree with St John of the Cross, quoted in the catechism, on the basis of that judgment, “At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love”.

Love defines man’s justice, probably single-handedly, which is why the greatest commandments are what they are. Augustine: “Without love faith may indeed exist but avails nothing.” St Paul: “…if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing.” and, “Now these three remain, faith, hope, and love, but the greatest of these is love.” 1 Cor 13
 
Romans 4 and James 2 **do not contradict, but complement **each other.

In Romans 4, Paul was telling the Gentiles that “WORKS ALONE” without TRUE FAITH WILL NOT SAVE.

In James 2, James was saying that when we must live our faith, for faith without works, is dead. “FAITH ALONE” WILL NOT SAVE.
We must remember that Paul was preaching to the Gentiles (those who were NOT under the Law). He was giving encouragement to the Gentiles that salvation is for all. The Jews boasted that they were God’s chosen people – promise given to Abraham defined by the practice of circumcision, which was continued under Moses Law. Paul was saying that if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing. (Galatians 2:21) Paul was reaching out to the Gentiles telling them that salvation is no longer limited to those under the law, but to all who have faith are worthy to be called the children of God. For it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. (Romans 9:8)

James, on the other hand, teaches the importance of good works. Faith must work through love.
 
Mammoths said:
What would faith alone include that faith apart from works does not?

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=DRA

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=DRA
Click to expand...
God bless Mammoths,

Faith alone means: Faith apart from works. They are identical.

To answer the question we have to know the related teachings of the Catholic Church.
  1. Need to know God’s gift of (formed) faith.
  2. Need to know the point in our life when we can make our first supernatural decision and we can start to do supernatural merit, furthermore good to know the conditions of supernatural works/merit.
  3. Need to know the meaning of James 2:24; Rom 4:4-5; 1 Cor3:12-15.
  4. Need to know the Book of life and the salvation and the predestination of the elect.
If a Catholic reasonably know the above teachings of the Catholic Church then answer the question as follows:

A God’s child/elect faith alone, or faith apart from works, has initial justification and irrevocable salvation at the point of initial justification. - Initial justification takes place at baptism.

To give the above answer, a Catholic don’t need to know he or she is an elect, only need to know the above and the following teachings of the Catholic Church.

The following teachings of the Catholic Church.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasize mine.

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25). …

D) …"Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
  1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ” (JD l8). ….
God bless.

LatinRight
 
Mammoths said:
What would faith alone include that faith apart from works does not?

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=DRA

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=DRA
Click to expand...
Here’s one answer

** Ephesians 2:8-10 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)**

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Protestants always leave off v 10. It doesn’t fit their theology

So RE: v 10

One should ask, if we are created in Christ Jesus for good works and we don’t do what God prepared in advance for us to do, what will happen?

When a fruit tree didn’t bear fruit, which is what God made it to do, what happens in scripture to that tree? In Context

In another example if the tree didn’t produce after watering and fertilizing, it was to be cut down and burned. It was considered taking up space.

The analysis can also apply to us
 
PluniaZ said:
Note what Chrysostom has to say in his commentary on Romans:

“In like manner it will be no advantage to a Christian to have faith, and the gift of baptism, and yet be open to all the passions.”

clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/dma.htm#o
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Code: 
 "Faith must of course be sincere. It must be a faith that performs good works through love. If faith lacks love it is not true faith. Thus the Apostle bars the way of hypocrites to the kingdom of Christ on all sides. He declares on the one hand, "In Christ Jesus circumcision availeth nothing," i.e., works avail nothing, but faith alone, and that without any merit whatever, avails before God. On the other hand, the Apostle declares that without fruits faith serves no purpose. To think, "If faith justifies without works, let us work nothing," is to despise the grace of God. Idle faith is not justifying faith. In this terse manner Paul presents the whole life of a Christian. Inwardly it consists in faith towards God, outwardly in love towards our fellow-men." Martin Luther
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Jon
 
LatinRight said:
God bless Mammoths,

Faith alone means: Faith apart from works. They are identical.

To answer the question we have to know the related teachings of the Catholic Church.
  1. Need to know God’s gift of (formed) faith.
A God’s child/elect faith alone, or faith apart from works, has initial justification and irrevocable salvation at the point of initial justification.
Click to expand...
justifying faith is truly faith apart from good works but it isn’t faith alone or without other dispositions.
Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema. Council of trent.
 
LatinRight said:
God bless Mammoths,

Faith alone means: Faith apart from works. They are identical.

To answer the question we have to know the related teachings of the Catholic Church.
  1. Need to know God’s gift of (formed) faith.
  2. Need to know the point in our life when we can make our first supernatural decision and we can start to do supernatural merit, furthermore good to know the conditions of supernatural works/merit.
  3. Need to know the meaning of James 2:24; Rom 4:4-5; 1 Cor3:12-15.
  4. Need to know the Book of life and the salvation and the predestination of the elect.
If a Catholic reasonably know the above teachings of the Catholic Church then answer the question as follows:

A God’s child/elect faith alone, or faith apart from works, has initial justification and irrevocable salvation at the point of initial justification. - Initial justification takes place at baptism.

To give the above answer, a Catholic don’t need to know he or she is an elect, only need to know the above and the following teachings of the Catholic Church.

The following teachings of the Catholic Church.

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

3/17 Justification is SOLELY due to the forgiving and renewing mercy that God imparts as a gift and we RECEIVE IN FAITH, and NEVER CAN MERIT IT ANY WAY.

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

4/27.The Catholic understanding also sees faith as fundamental in justification. For without faith, no justification can take place. Thus justifying grace never becomes a human possession. While Catholic teaching emphasizes the renewal of life by justifying grace, this RENEVAL in FAITH, HOPE, LOVE is always dependent on God’s unfathomable grace and contributes NOTHING to JUSTIFICATION.

4/37 We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - FOLLOW JUSTIFICATION and ARE ITS FRUITS. Emphasize mine.

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25). …

D) …"Whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
  1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ” (JD l8). ….
God bless.

LatinRight
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You can’t say salvation by faith without including works.

Jesus told the penitent woman, “Your faith has saved you.” What did she do? She went and anointed Jesus’ feet.

Jesus told the leper, “Your faith has saved you.” What did he do? He turned back and ran to Him and fell at His feet.

My point: You can’t have faith apart from works.
 
James248 said:
You can’t say salvation by faith without including works.

Jesus told the penitent woman, “Your faith has saved you.” What did she do? She went and anointed Jesus’ feet.

Jesus told the leper, “Your faith has saved you.” What did he do? He turned back and ran to Him and fell at His feet.

My point: You can’t have faith apart from works.
Click to expand...
Gog bless James284,

JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH ALONE? by James Akin

Quote: “In fact, in TRADITIONAL WORKS OF CATHOLIC THEOLOGY, one regularly encounters the statement that FORMED FAITH IS JUSTIFYING FAITH. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period. End quote.

**Sola fide formata = (formed) FAITH ALONE
THE COMPOSITE OF GOD’S GIFT OF FORMED FAITH:

a. BELIEF (Unconditional BELIEF in what God says.)

b. HOPE (Unconditional TRUST in God.)

c. CHARITY (Unconditional LOVE for God.)**

Quote: 7. On the subject of the kind of justification discussed in James 2:24, Trent quotes this verse only once and then applies it to progressive, not initial justification, so one does not have to do good works to get into a state of justification; good works are fruits of the state of justification, not causes for entering it.

The fact this passage does not refer to initial justification should be obvious since the justification of Abraham it refers to occurred years after Abraham was first justified by faith in Genesis 12, when By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go (Heb. 11:8).

Thus James 2:24 refers to later, progressive justification, by which one grows in righteousness, not initial justification, when ones sins are forgiven. End quote.

As you see above James284, the above article clearly explains:
The teachings of the Trent and justification by Formed Faith Alone is not in contradiction.

In the above article James also explains, justification by formed faith alone is not the invention of the reformation.

In fact it was always the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Continue
 
Continuation

JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church

4/25 We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. WHATEVER in the JUSTIFIED PRECEDES or FOLLOWS the free gift of faith is NEITHER THE BASIS of justification NOR MERITS it.

ANNEX TO THE OFFICIAL COMMON STATEMENT

C) Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).

D) "whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it“ (JD 25).
  1. The doctrine of justification is measure or touchstone for the Christian faith. No teaching may contradict this criterion. In this sense, the doctrine of justification is an "indispensable criterion which constantly serves to orient all the teaching and practice of our churches to Christ“ (JD l8).
You said:
You can’t say salvation by faith without including works.

I can say because I only repeat the teachings of the Catholic Church.

You also said James284:
My point: You can’t have faith apart from works.

I say: If you are an elect James284, sooner or later, the latest (if not before) when you stand before God’s judgment seat, you will learn:

Salvation and good works/supernatural works are two different issues, two different “Departments.”

Supernatural work is:

Doing something, DECIDED FREELY without the fear of hell,

work done NOT BECAUSE IT WILL HELP US SOMEHOW,

but because we want to do it out of SHEER LOVE for the Glory of God, or help other person out of sheer love.

Justification takes place "by grace alone“ (JD 15 and 16), by faith alone, the person is justified „apart from works“ (Rom 3:28, cf. JD 25).

As we see above the balance between faith and works about justification/salvation is 100 % faith and 0 % works.

The above balance makes the possibility for every Catholic that their works could be 100 % supernatural merit, all 100 % works could be done freely out of love for the Glory of God.

Yet probably the majority of Catholics believe a false teaching of salvation that their faith is not enough for their salvation, and probably many Catholics 100 % works done to get their salvation or to keep their salvation and at the judgment of their works, their works are wood, hay and straw, all goes up in smoke because rejected by God. – 1 Cor.3:12-15.

This is a great loss because our position and glory in heaven is determined by God according to the outcome of the judgment of our works.

God bless.

LatinRight
 
Ubenedictus said:
justifying faith is truly faith apart from good works but it isn’t faith alone or without other dispositions.
Canon 9. If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema. Council of trent.
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God bless Ubenedictus,

I’m sorry, I mistakenly answered your post in my post # 14.

I also apologize about my mistake for James284 too.

I hope I wasn’t hard on my posts # 14 and 15, I concern for the Supernatural merit of every Christian.

God bless.

LatinRight
 
LatinRight said:
God bless Ubenedictus,

I’m sorry, I mistakenly answered your post in my post # 14.

I also apologize about my mistake for James284 too.

I hope I wasn’t hard on my posts # 14 and 15, I concern for the Supernatural merit of every Christian.

God bless.

LatinRight
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  1. I agree that justification is by faith apart from good works i.e good works don’t cause justification.
  2. Nor does faith cause it or any other virtue, the cause of justification is the mercy of God, faith is but a precondition.
  3. Apart from faith there are other important dispositions e.g sorrow for sin…etc.
  4. I also agree that supernatural ‘merit’ is only possible for those already justified.
  5. Adding alone here and there usually needs qualifier.
 
LatinRight said:
God bless Ubenedictus,

I’m sorry, I mistakenly answered your post in my post # 14.

I also apologize about my mistake for James284 too.

I hope I wasn’t hard on my posts # 14 and 15, I concern for the Supernatural merit of every Christian.

God bless.

LatinRight
Click to expand...
No harm no foul.

My point was that faith and good works are inseparable. Abraham was tested and found faithful in trial and it was credited to him as righteousness. Rahab was also faithful to God, she hid the two spies when they were in danger.
 
Mammoths said:
What would faith alone include that faith apart from works does not?

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+4&version=DRA

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James+2&version=DRA
Click to expand...
Consider the source:

This shall serve you as a true rule: wherever the scriptures ordain and command to do good works, you must understand it, that the scriptures forbid good works.

If your papist annoys you with the word “alone”, tell them straight away, Doctor Martin Luther will have it so.

-Martin Luther quoted
 
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