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PJM
Guest
Objectively speaking [about a subjective topic]; are Faith; what it means, and what it demands different for diifferent Christian Religions?
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lutherlic
Guest
Objectively (not subjective at all), yes to both.
I wouldn’t phrase this as “different Christian Religions.” There is only one Christian religion. All who are baptized are members of the same Body of Christ. Sadly, there are multiple Christian communities. The non-Catholic communities are in schism with the Church they split from and their beliefs all differ from it (and each other) to various degrees.
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Earnest_Bunbury
Guest
If faith is related to truth, then it is objective. Philosophy is the handmaid of theology so that bad philosophy makes bad theology. This is seen everyday in the secularizing, demythologizing, and rationalizing of the faith.
Descartes, Kant, Hagel, and Heidegger have all helped to separate the subject from the object in philosophy and thus separated truth and reality from ideas. Faith finds its subject and object in God Who is Truth itself.
This truth is one in God but is reasoned by man in varying concepts and rational hierarchies of truths leading to the one truth that is both object and subject of God. God’s Nature reflected in His Creation and known to us by our spiritual nature by the essence and being of created things leads us to know that there is natural theology, that is unless this essence and being is denied as understandable or able to be known by us. Denying that things in themselves can be known or that truth is itself unknowable is false, but this is what makes up modern philosophy today in distinction to Scholastic philosophy.
The Church relies for the most part on Scholastic metaphysics and philosophy to describe what is known by God revealing to us the truth. Rationalism dictates that we must prove this revelation from the bottom up, from the truths of natural causes to the first cause. But the first cause is a prime reality that cannot be fathomed by us but only philosophically reasoned by known effects leading to a cause. Absolute proof is impossible from our vantage point. We are a contingent reality and God is the Prime Reality, the source and principle of this contingent reality.
Faith as the objective truth knows by having union with the source of truth by way of the spirit, a metaphysical presence of which we have the potency to accept through grace. No one comes to Christ unless it be given him by the Father, John 6:66. That which is true in philosophy leading to a true theology enables us to believe, which then opens us up to an acceptance of the Grace of God to be led to being a transformed being, divinized by God by being united to Him in His Spirit.
When bad theology leads to seeing only 2 Sacraments when there is truly 7 of them, or when one gives their acceptance to “faith alone”, or rejecting transubstantiation, it is not a false faith but a lack of the fullness of faith, as the Church has stated, nor is it different in its entirety. Where one accepts truth one is united with the source of all Truth, and where one accepts anything that comes from the authority of the Catholic Church, the Canon of the Bible, the truth of the definitions of the Nature of Jesus, etc., then they are in communion with God through the Church in truth by way of a faith that truly represents that which is real.
Descartes, Kant, Hagel, and Heidegger have all helped to separate the subject from the object in philosophy and thus separated truth and reality from ideas. Faith finds its subject and object in God Who is Truth itself.
This truth is one in God but is reasoned by man in varying concepts and rational hierarchies of truths leading to the one truth that is both object and subject of God. God’s Nature reflected in His Creation and known to us by our spiritual nature by the essence and being of created things leads us to know that there is natural theology, that is unless this essence and being is denied as understandable or able to be known by us. Denying that things in themselves can be known or that truth is itself unknowable is false, but this is what makes up modern philosophy today in distinction to Scholastic philosophy.
The Church relies for the most part on Scholastic metaphysics and philosophy to describe what is known by God revealing to us the truth. Rationalism dictates that we must prove this revelation from the bottom up, from the truths of natural causes to the first cause. But the first cause is a prime reality that cannot be fathomed by us but only philosophically reasoned by known effects leading to a cause. Absolute proof is impossible from our vantage point. We are a contingent reality and God is the Prime Reality, the source and principle of this contingent reality.
Faith as the objective truth knows by having union with the source of truth by way of the spirit, a metaphysical presence of which we have the potency to accept through grace. No one comes to Christ unless it be given him by the Father, John 6:66. That which is true in philosophy leading to a true theology enables us to believe, which then opens us up to an acceptance of the Grace of God to be led to being a transformed being, divinized by God by being united to Him in His Spirit.
When bad theology leads to seeing only 2 Sacraments when there is truly 7 of them, or when one gives their acceptance to “faith alone”, or rejecting transubstantiation, it is not a false faith but a lack of the fullness of faith, as the Church has stated, nor is it different in its entirety. Where one accepts truth one is united with the source of all Truth, and where one accepts anything that comes from the authority of the Catholic Church, the Canon of the Bible, the truth of the definitions of the Nature of Jesus, etc., then they are in communion with God through the Church in truth by way of a faith that truly represents that which is real.
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PJM
Guest
I found in particular your final statement to be most interestering. THANK YOU,
So Faith differs ONLY by levels of understanding?
Pat
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waxwing
Guest
Yes they are different…so is faith within Catholicism … not officially of course, but within the thousands of parishes out there you are sure to see all sorts of parishioners with different beliefs to varying degrees. Think a follow up question should be yes the faith between a Catholic and Anglican or Methodist etc is different, how important is this, followed up by…now what? I for one do acknowledge the differences of the three above groups but I don’t see the difference to be of such great importance to then in turn try to convert them. They have been converted, their Christian. They are welcome to become Catholic I wouldn’t discourage it after they have praying and studying the faith, but if they’re faith as a Christian is strong within the Methodist Church - well stay Methodist.
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PJM
Guest
***WHAT
There is not a SINGLE word or indicaton that God; Yahweh or Christ EVER tolerated more than one set of Faith beliefs, or more than One God. So your saying that the FACT that Christ isnstituted ONLY one Church, Only one set of Faith beleifs is no essentail to ones salvation? If the answer is yes: friend that that is hersey.***
I pray that I misunderstood your remarks,
God Bless,
Pat
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waxwing
Guest
Wow I got the heresy word right out of the gate. Yes I do think salvation is possible outside the Catholic Church, yes I think their will plenty of Orthodox Christians, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Nazarene’s, Reformed, Mennonites, and the Non Denominational’s (forgive me if I forgot to list a Denomination, hard to keep track of all them Protestants***WHAT
There is not a SINGLE word or indicaton that God; Yahweh or Christ EVER tolerated more than one set of Faith beliefs, or more than One God. So your saying that the FACT that Christ isnstituted ONLY one Church, Only one set of Faith beleifs is no essentail to ones salvation? If the answer is yes: friend that that is hersey.***
I pray that I misunderstood your remarks,
God Bless,
Pat
) . Yep, their I said it, outrageous isn’t it? nonCatholic, yet Christian are in the fold of Christianity. Be polite when proselytizing them Christians, save the heresy word till your second or third encounter with them, may get more mileage in your conversions efforts.
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waxwing
Guest
Is their way I can edit my post after posting? Unfortunately have quote and edit.Wow I got the heresy word right out of the gate. Yes I do think salvation is possible outside the Catholic Church, yes I think their will plenty of Orthodox Christians, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Nazarene’s, Reformed, Mennonites, and the Non Denominational’s (forgive me if I forgot to list a Denomination, hard to keep track of all them Protestants
Wow I got the heresy word right out of the gate. Yes I do think salvation is possible outside the Catholic Church, yes I think their will be plenty of Orthodox Christians, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Nazarene’s, Reformed, Mennonites, and the Non Denominational’s (forgive me if I forgot to list a Denomination, hard to keep track of all them Protestants
) in heaven. Yep, there I said it, outrageous isn’t it? nonCatholic, yet Christian are in the fold of Christianity. Be polite when proselytizing them Christians, save the heresy word till your second or third encounter with them, may get more mileage in your conversions efforts.
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lutherlic
Guest
There are people who are 100% loyal to the teaching of the Magisterium and the truth taught through the Catechism and there are others who are not. Those who are not, to the degree that they are not, are separated from the truth at their own peril.
Likewise, separated Christian communities are in no way whatsoever equally correct in the wide variety of views they hold of the Christian faith. Calling yourself a Christian is not enough for salvation.
Who can give us true insight to the will of the Father? Only the Church founded by Jesus and protected by the Holy Spirit to the end of time.
This does not mean that “cafeteria” Catholics, those in other Christian communities (ref: Gaudium et Spes 22), or even non-Christians (ref: CCC 1260) are necessarily condemned to hell. In the end it is God’s judgement alone, but many people are foolish and presumptuous as to what that will be – especially when they knowingly (not through ignorance or even invincible ignorance) reject the Church’s teaching. The Church and Christ are inseparable.
There is only one truth and it is not relative to personal preferences or anything else.
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PJM
Guest
Nice,…BUT you missd the point I was trying to make.=waxwing;8176537]Wow I got the heresy word right out of the gate. Yes I do think salvation is possible outside the Catholic Church, yes I think their will plenty of Orthodox Christians, the Methodists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Nazarene’s, Reformed, Mennonites, and the Non Denominational’s (forgive me if I forgot to list a Denomination, hard to keep track of all them Protestants
The CC does teach under very specific conditions that other Christinas MIGHT be saved if there is PERFECT CONTRITION, and No Opportunity to KNOW THE TRUTH. I agree with this.
BUT friend, Christ foinded only One Church and One Faith for ONE REASON:and that is WHY Christ entrusted ALL of the keys to heaven allm access to heaven to Peter and the CC. So even hint that all faits are in ANYWAY equal. Is hersey.
IF God desired more than One set of Faith believes it KEPT it to himself. NOT a word of it in the bible.
PLEASE, if your going to Pontificate the Catholic Faith do it as and with our Pontiff.
God Bless you,
Pat
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