Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[tommyc]

What is the “proper” ubderstanding of By grace through faith? I understand the CC,ELCA, and U Methodists signed an agreement saying such…also how can people say “there’s nothing they can do to “earn” salvation”…since according to this logic you’ve got to have faith? (Especially Presbyterians who are pre-destined)

 

[srferdave]

What is the “proper” ubderstanding of By grace through faith? I understand the CC,ELCA, and U Methodists signed an agreement saying such…also how can people say “there’s nothing they can do to “earn” salvation”…since according to this logic you’ve got to have faith? (Especially Presbyterians who are pre-destined)

Because there is nothing we can do to “earn” salvation. God has given us the opportunity to cooperate with the grace he has bestowed upon us. It is a gift that we have the option to choose. If we choose to receive that gift we must cooperate in Gods love.

 

[DavidFilmer]

What is the “proper” understanding of By grace through faith?

There is no such “proper” understanding (for Catholics) - it is heresy. I don’t know what agreement you refer to, but this is heresy.

Baptismal Grace is given to infants, who obviously lack the capacity for faith. Prevenient Grace gently pulls everyone towards God, regardless of faith (Council of Trent, Chapter V).

The phrase “grace through faith” implies that we must have faith before we receive grace. That is a heresy consistent with the protestant notion of Sola Fide. In Catholic theology, God’s Grace is poured out upon the whole world (though some will resist or squander it).

 

[srferdave]

Our salvation is “by grace, through faith, working in love”

 

[moondweller]

What is the “proper” ubderstanding of By grace through faith? I understand the CC,ELCA, and U Methodists signed an agreement saying such…

Eph. 2:8: “For BY grace you have been saved THROUGH faith…”“Grace” (unmerited, Divine favor) is the means BY which God Himself saves those who believe the message of Christ and His sacrificial death on their behalf. Grace means “favor.” When when does another a “favor” it means it is done freely, completely apart from merit, i.e., no meritorious works required by the recipient of said “grace.”.

In respect to Divine salvation, all the work required for it (salvation) was accomplished, once for all, by Christ Himself (His sacrificial work on the cross).

also how can people say “there’s nothing they can do to “earn” salvation”…since according to this logic you’ve got to have faith? (Especially Presbyterians who are pre-destined)

“…and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.“Salvation is graciously gifted by God upon personal faith in Christ. As you can see by Eph. 2:8-9, the Scriptures do not consider faith a work. It is a personal response to the message concerning the work which Christ alone accomplished on our behalf (sinners). Salvation faith is trust in the work of Another: Jesus Christ, hence,.”…not as a result of works” (of our own), “so that no one may boast.”. The glory is God’s alone.

 

[david_friol_1]

Eph. 2:8: “For BY grace you have been saved THROUGH faith…”“Grace” (unmerited, Divine favor) is the means BY which God Himself saves those who believe the message of Christ and His sacrificial death on their behalf. Grace means “favor.” When when does another a “favor” it means it is done freely, completely apart from merit, i.e., no meritorious works required by the recipient of said “grace.”.

In respect to Divine salvation, all the work required for it (salvation) was accomplished, once for all, by Christ Himself (His sacrificial work on the cross)."…and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.“Salvation is graciously gifted by God upon personal faith in Christ. As you can see by Eph. 2:8-9, the Scriptures do not consider faith a work. It is a personal response to the message concerning the work which Christ alone accomplished on our behalf (sinners). Salvation faith is trust in the work of Another: Jesus Christ, hence,.”…not as a result of works" (of our own), “so that no one may boast.”. The glory is God’s alone.

 

[david_friol_1]

Eph. 2:8: “For BY grace you have been saved THROUGH faith…”“Grace” (unmerited, Divine favor) is the means BY which God Himself saves those who believe the message of Christ and His sacrificial death on their behalf. Grace means “favor.” When when does another a “favor” it means it is done freely, completely apart from merit, i.e., no meritorious works required by the recipient of said “grace.”.

In respect to Divine salvation, all the work required for it (salvation) was accomplished, once for all, by Christ Himself (His sacrificial work on the cross)."…and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.“Salvation is graciously gifted by God upon personal faith in Christ. As you can see by Eph. 2:8-9, the Scriptures do not consider faith a work. It is a personal response to the message concerning the work which Christ alone accomplished on our behalf (sinners). Salvation faith is trust in the work of Another: Jesus Christ, hence,.”…not as a result of works" (of our own), “so that no one may boast.”. The glory is God’s alone.

Hey moondweller
Welcome to you. I wanted to thank you for showing me that passage in Ephesians but I did have one Question. You said that “no meritorious works required by the recipient”. Now if that is true then why does the very next verse(Eph. 2:10) of Sacred, God-Breathed Scripture, in the very same context mind you, go on to say “For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.”? Wait a minute, the scripture is telling us that we are actually created for good works and that we should live in them! Hey, I wonder what the scriptures have to say to someone who decides not to live in the good works that God has prepared for us in advance. Enter Matt. 25:31-46 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ **Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” **

As a Catholic I like to explore the scriptures as they were meant to be, in there entirety. I do thank you for your concern though but I will stick with the Historical Christian Church(i.e. the Catholic Church)

 

[moondweller]

As a Catholic I like to explore the scriptures as they were meant to be, in there entirety. I do thank you for your concern though but I will stick with the Historical Christian Church(i.e. the Catholic Church)

You’re welcome. Since you also addressed this to me via PM, I answered you via PM.

 

[paul_c]

What is the “proper” ubderstanding of By grace through faith? I understand the CC,ELCA, and U Methodists signed an agreement saying such…also how can people say “there’s nothing they can do to “earn” salvation”…since according to this logic you’ve got to have faith? (Especially Presbyterians who are pre-destined)

You enter the state of grace through baptism. You get baptized either by your own faith or by that of your proxy (your parent’s or guardians). You do not earn this grace, it is freely given to those that ask to be baptized, regardless of what you have done prior to that.

But that’s only half the story. When you get baptized, all your prior sins are forgiven and you are reborn as a member of the church. You are in the state of grace, which allows you to do the good works prepared for you (as discussed in Ephesians 2:10) But you also have free will. If you choose not to do those good works and instead turn from God in sin, then you fall from Grace. Now God, in his infinite mercy will allow you to reconcile with him and regain the state of Grace if you confess your sins and repent through the sacrament of reconciliation. He will also strengthen the grace within you if you partake of the eucharist, pray, and do good works, making it increasingly easy to avoid sin. If you end life in the state of Grace, you will go to heaven. However, if you haven’t lost the tendency to sin, you will be purged of this tendency first in Purgatory…

 

[brb3]

Salvation is graciously gifted by God upon personal faith in Christ. As you can see by Eph. 2:8-9, the Scriptures do not consider faith a work. It is a personal response to the message concerning the work which Christ alone accomplished on our behalf (sinners). Salvation faith is trust in the work of Another: Jesus Christ, hence,."…not as a result of works" (of our own), “so that no one may boast.”. The glory is God’s alone.

Yes, but we are not ‘frozen’ in time, that first ‘justification’ moment of faith. God’s grace brings us to faith, and grace further abounds via the Sacraments of the Church.

Moondweller … Don’t you believe in LORDSHIP SALVATION ? Don’t you realize that without a life lived IN CHRIST, as your Lord … that first moment of ‘theoretical’ belief will not carry you to the goal-line ?

Indeed, you need to accept Christ as Lord upon that first moment of faith, to receive spiritual rebirth, which results in ‘experiential’ belief … and Perseverance in ‘good works’ is a pervasive Pauline epistle teaching mandate.

But, if we fall away, back into disbelief, we must recover and receive renewal grace to restore us to the fold of Christ. Christ as the Good Shepherd, is faithful and true, even if we are not, and diligently seeks the Prodigals !!!

 

[moondweller]

Yes, but we are not ‘frozen’ in time, that first ‘justification’ moment of faith. God’s grace brings us to faith, and grace further abounds via the Sacraments of the Church.

It doesn’t say, “For by grace you have been brought to faith…” It clearly states: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…”

Moondweller … Don’t you believe in LORDSHIP SALVATION ?

I do not. I believe in salvation “by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works.”

Don’t you realize that without a life lived IN CHRIST, as your Lord … that first moment of ‘theoretical’ belief will not carry you to the goal-line ?

Theoretical belief? Paul is not referring to anything theoretical in Eph. 2:8-9. Neither the grace, by which, nor the faith, through which, one is gifted salvation.

BRB, you’re still seeking salvation by your own covenant of works. But Paul is clear, “not as a result of works.”

 

[brb3]

It doesn’t say, “For by grace you have been brought to faith…” It clearly states: "For by grace you have been saved through faith…"I do not. I believe in salvation "by grace through faith, the gift of God, not as a result of works."Theoretical belief? Paul is not referring to anything theoretical in Eph. 2:8-9. Neither the grace, by which, nor the faith, through which, one is gifted salvation.

BRB, you’re still seeking salvation by your own covenant of works.

Moon …

How have you missed the teaching of Lordship Christology in Scripture ?
Christ asked his 12 this question, and Peter gave the correct answer, which Christ acknowledged as the KEY answer he desired of ALL who claim him as their Savior.

And, scripture is very clear that no one comes to the Father thru Christ, of/on their own accord. We are drawn to a saving faith via God’s grace. Scripture is very clear on this factoid. Need we quote the numerous chapter / verses to support ?

For you to believe that Faith precedes/supercedes God’s calling via grace, … is not scripturally supportable. “The carnal mind is enmity to God and cannot please God” … per scriptures. Thus, the progression is thusly :

[drawing GRACE, then Faith, followed by additional Grace via receipt of Sacraments, & borne out over time by an enduring faith & “gracious works” [per Paul’s teaching] ------

So, you are trafficking in ‘theoretical’ Soteriology of your own mental construct. Cherry picking from a small portion of the Gospel & Epistles, ‘cutting/pasting’ scripture to build your own disconnected Soteriology … that rejects the Lordship of Christ.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by brb3
Yes, but we are not ‘frozen’ in time, that first ‘justification’ moment of faith. God’s grace brings us to faith, and grace further abounds via the Sacraments of the Church.

Let’s look at another snippet of scripture: Mark 16:16, where the risen Christ says:
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

So here, Jesus explicitly says you not only need to beleive to be saved, you must be baptized. (which you seem to deny). But it goes further than that. Once you are baptized, your sins are forgiven and you are born again into grace (as described in John 3). But then, as a born again Christian, to actually enter heaven, you must do the will of the father (Matthew 7: 21-23), eat his body and drink his blood (John 6), follow the commandments (Matthew 19: 16-19) , love one another as Jesus loved John 13: 34-35), and do works of Mercy (Matthew 25: 31-46). All these thinks you must do, in addition to what you do, which is to have faith that Jesus will save you.

Quote:
Moondweller … Don’t you believe in LORDSHIP SALVATION ?

And indeed this is true. You may believe, be baptized and therefore be saved from all previous sin without regard to any works. But remember, Ephesians goes on to say (2:10)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

And there’s the rub, after being saved, through no work of our own, we must do the good works that God has prepared for us in advance or else be condemned. Read and follow the enter passage

Quote:
Don’t you realize that without a life lived IN CHRIST, as your Lord … that first moment of ‘theoretical’ belief will not carry you to the goal-line ?

But he does continue on to verse 10, where works are demanded of us. Being saved is NOT equivalent to going to heaven. It is merely the first step.

BRB, you’re still seeking salvation by your own covenant of works. But Paul is clear, “not as a result of works.”

Moondweller, BRB is just following all of Ephesians, not stopping at verse 2:9. Why do you truncate the Bible, believing only the verses the suit you? Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but we must also live out that faith to go to heaven , doing the good works created for us. Each and everyone of us has a set of skills to carry out those works we were made to do. All we have to do is cooperate with the graces given us to us. Open up your aperture a little, and digest all the truth in your Bible…Don’t stop with Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[TimothyH]

Faith is required for salvation but remember what faith is.

We all have an intuitive understanding of what the word “faith” means. The word “Faith” has to do with loyalty and alllegiance. When we have faith, we have an interior inclination toward loyalty - our heart, mind and will are inclined to be loyal.

But what does it mean to actually be faithful?

The world “Faithful” is a compound of the words “Faith” and “Full”. To be “Faithful” means to be full of faith. When one is full of faith, they must be empty of everything elese. Mary was “Full of grace” and there was no sin in her. The devil if “Full of lies” and there is no truth in him. So to be Faithful is to be full of faith, with no room for a divided heart, no disloyalty whatsoever.

If faith is an internior inclanation of the heart mind and will toward loyalty then being full of faith (faithful) is the actual living out of that faith, that inerior inclanation, in our daily lives. Faithfullness (the fullness of faith) is when our faith - our desire to be loyal - is manifest within our daily lives.

***Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active **along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. (James 2:21-22)*James could rightly say that Abraham’s faith was “Active” and “Completed” by his works. James understood that the fullness of the interior inclination of the heart, mind and will toward loyalty brought on by belief - by faith - was manifested in Abraham’s daily life through his faithfullness - his fullness of faith.

*I have examined my ways and turned my steps to your decrees. I am prompt, I do not hesitate in keeping your commands. (Psalm 119:59-60)*The Psalmist understood that the fullness of faith is reached when our actions manifest our faith in our daily lives. When our actions line up with our beliefs, we have come to the fullness of faith - faithfullness.

***So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who **, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work. (Philippians 2:12-13)*Paul nails the Catholic - the correct Christian position on salvation - here in Phlippians 2 when he says that it is God who works in us both to desire (faith) and to work (the fullness of faith). It is God’s grace that gives us both the faith, which is the desire to be loyal, and the works, which is the fullness of faith manifested in our daily lives.

So the Catholic Church has it exactly right, in perfect agreement with the psalmist, with Paul, with James and with the rest of scripture. Salvation is through God’s grace which gives us the desire to love God and the visible actions in our lives which prove our love for God, activate ouir love for God and complete our love for God.

-Tim-

 

[kbachler]

There is no such “proper” understanding (for Catholics) - it is heresy. I don’t know what agreement you refer to, but this is heresy.

Baptismal Grace is given to infants, who obviously lack the capacity for faith. Prevenient Grace gently pulls everyone towards God, regardless of faith (Council of Trent, Chapter V).

The phrase “grace through faith” implies that we must have faith before we receive grace. That is a heresy consistent with the protestant notion of Sola Fide. In Catholic theology, God’s Grace is poured out upon the whole world (though some will resist or squander it).

Can you expound upon the above and reconcile with John 3? Maybe I’m getting confused in the definitions of grace and faith.

The New Birth

1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?"5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

8 “The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony.12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;

15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[HisLamb]

There is no such “proper” understanding (for Catholics) - it is heresy. I don’t know what agreement you refer to, but this is heresy.

Baptismal Grace is given to infants, who obviously lack the capacity for faith. Prevenient Grace gently pulls everyone towards God, regardless of faith (Council of Trent, Chapter V).

The phrase “grace through faith” implies that we must have faith before we receive grace. That is a heresy consistent with the protestant notion of Sola Fide. In Catholic theology, God’s Grace is poured out upon the whole world (though some will resist or squander it).

Unless you’re prepared to call St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians heresy, you might want to rephrase your argument. He uses the exact phrase “saved by grace through faith…” We can’t fault the OP for using an expression that is perfectly biblical, just because there is a false doctrine on the matter. Of course, you are right in the sense that grace comes first— no one can can come to Christ without being drawn by the Father (John 6:44). I would say that even though an infant cannot have faith, faith is present at an infant baptism, for the baby is only being baptized because of the faith of the parents.

The OP is correct in the assertion that there was an agreement about justification- between Catholics and Lutherans. It is called the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification. Here is a segment:

25.We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

 

[david_friol_1]

moondweller
Regular Member Join Date: November 22, 2007
Posts: 3,324
Religion: bac

Re: Epesians 2:8-9 you left out verse 10

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Quote:
Originally Posted by david_friol
Hey moondweller
Welcome to you. I wanted to thank you for showing me that passage in Ephesians but I did have one Question. You said that “no meritorious works required by the recipient”. Now if that is true then why does the very next verse(Eph. 2:10) of Sacred, God-Breathed Scripture, in the very same context mind you

Hello David,

The question must be asked, who are the “we” in verse 10? The answer is found in verses 8-9, of which Paul includes himself. They’re those who “have been saved” by grace through faith. We who, have been saved, “by grace through faith,” Paul says, are now “His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus FOR good works,” not BY those works. Works follow salvation, not precede it (see also Titus 2:11-14).

You struggle with Eph. 2:8-9 because Catholicism has no concept of “saved.” Hence, it must include works.
Quote:
Enter Matt. 25:31-46 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

This is a separation of sheep (believers) and goats (unbelievers). Those works were done by the sheep because they were sheep. They were already His “sheep” at His coming and they were separated from the “goats” accordingly.
John 10:26 “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.”

---

In Christ,
MD

*“Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.”

 

[david_friol_1]

david_friol
New Member Join Date: January 11, 2011
Posts: 67
Religion: Catholic

Re: Epesians 2:8-9 you left out verse 10

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Thanks for you response moondweller

I hope that I did not give you the impression that I was struggling with vs. 8-9. The Passage seems to be concerned more with the contast between grace and boasting than with grace and works as is so often presented. I think the point is that both faith and the ability to do God’s work are a gift of God’s grace and not by some purely human ability,excluding God’s grace, does man get to heaven. The point I was making to you last time which may have gone unnoticed was not who the “we” of vs. 10 is refering to. Paul tells you plainly that the “we” are those who are created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared beforehand. No the point I was trying to get at, and I am sorry for not being clear, was that you said that “no meritorious works required by the recipient”. Now maybe the word meritorious or at least what you meant by meritorious can cause misunderstanding between us. When I see meritorious works I’m thinking reward, so in essence it sounds like you are saying that God does not reward our good works. That is why I brought up the passage in Matt.25 because clearly there is a reward that God, in his love, gives to those who respond to his grace with faith and obediance as it says in Romans 2;6-8 "who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. "

The rest of what you said I am not going to respond to because I think we both agree that the sheep hear his voice and all that

 

[moondweller]

Let’s look at another snippet of scripture: Mark 16:16, where the risen Christ says:
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

So here, Jesus explicitly says you not only need to beleive to be saved, you must be baptized. (which you seem to deny).

I do deny that one must be water baptized to be saved. In the Scriptures it’s those who BELIEVE that are subsequently baptized. But notice those who are condemned. They don’t BELIEVE. “Believe” in both the former and the latter is the criterion.

But it goes further than that. Once you are baptized, your sins are forgiven and you are born again into grace (as described in John 3). But then, as a born again Christian, to actually enter heaven, you must do the will of the father (Matthew 7: 21-23), eat his body and drink his blood (John 6), follow the commandments (Matthew 19: 16-19) , love one another as Jesus loved John 13: 34-35), and do works of Mercy (Matthew 25: 31-46). All these thinks you must do, in addition to what you do, which is to have faith that Jesus will save you.

What you describe here is salvation by works. But Paul says, “…not as a result of works.”

And indeed this is true. You may believe, be baptized and therefore be saved from all previous sin without regard to any works. But remember, Ephesians goes on to say (2:10)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Those described as “His handiwork,” created in Christ Jesus FOR (not BY) good works are those in vv. 8-9 who have been saved by grace through faith, “… NOT as a result of works.”

And there’s the rub, after being saved, through no work of our own, we must do the good works that God has prepared for us in advance or else be condemned.

Then you’re really not “saved,” are you? You only hope to be saved after this life of works.

Being saved is NOT equivalent to going to heaven. It is merely the first step.

ALL who have been gifted salvation by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), have been gifted eternal life (Rom. 6:23). Hence they’re guaranteed to enjoy the presence of God forever, since they do not come into judgment but have passed out of death into life (Jn. 5:24). Such is the joy of salvation, gifted by God, by grace through faith, “not as a result of works.”

Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but we must also live out that faith to go to heaven, doing the good works created for us.

Verse 10 of Eph. 2 doesn’t say that the good works are "created, but it’s those who have been gifted salvation by grace through faith that are now “created in Christ Jesus” FOR good works that they should walk in them. Works always follow salvation, not preceded it. Performed by those who are now “created in Christ Jesus” FOR them. God never reverses what He creates.

How one was “saved” is described in Eph. 2:8-9. What the “saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” do, being now “created in Christ Jesus,” is in verse 10. Good works FOLLOW salvation, they’re not the cause of it.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
Let’s look at another snippet of scripture: Mark 16:16, where the risen Christ says:
16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Moondweller, does it ever cross you mind that there is an awful lot of discussion about baptism in the new testament for something that you purport to be meaningless? Its in all 4 gospels. Peter tells the converts in acts 2 that they need to be saved. Paul talks about it, Peter talks about it. Its inescapable that Baptism is the sign of the new covenant, replacing circumcision.

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But it goes further than that. Once you are baptized, your sins are forgiven and you are born again into grace (as described in John 3). But then, as a born again Christian, to actually enter heaven, you must do the will of the father (Matthew 7: 21-23), eat his body and drink his blood (John 6), follow the commandments (Matthew 19: 16-19) , love one another as Jesus loved John 13: 34-35), and do works of Mercy (Matthew 25: 31-46). All these thinks you must do, in addition to what you do, which is to have faith that Jesus will save you.

You aren’t reading very carefully. What I am describing is living the Christian life after being born again. if you fail to do this, how can you rightfully claim to be born again?

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And indeed this is true. You may believe, be baptized and therefore be saved from all previous sin without regard to any works. But remember, Ephesians goes on to say (2:10)

I didn’t say they were saved by Good works. I said that after they were saved, they needed to do the good works that God prepared for them.

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And there’s the rub, after being saved, through no work of our own, we must do the good works that God has prepared for us in advance or else be condemned.

Being saved doesn’t necessarily imply that you will live for ever. Many people have been saved from drowning or from an accident and then subsequently died of other causes, isn’t it true?

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Being saved is NOT equivalent to going to heaven. It is merely the first step.

This is yet another example of you splicing unrelated parts of scripture together to make it say what you want it to say. This is dishonest and fools only those that don’t know scripture.

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Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, but we must also live out that faith to go to heaven, doing the good works created for us.

I readily agree that good works should follow salvation. Afterall that’s what the catholic church teaches. No matter how evil your prior actions were, if you come to be baptized, your former sins are forgiven and you are given a new life to follow Christ. But if you fail to follow Christ., despite being given the graces to do good works, you will be condemned. It is so sad to me that you can’t see these truths, but you have stayed here all these years do perhaps some day your heart will be opened to the truth.