Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[brb3]

He himself taught that it’s “by grace through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works.”

So you accept a modified form of FREE GRACE [plus subsequent works] ?

Look where that idea has taken some ‘Free Grace’ Evangelicals — now seeing no need for ANY subsequent works, not even teaching the need to repent of & turn away from former sins. Teaching “Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more” … following the example of Martin Luther, who broke his vows, married a nun, and sinned with gusto.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c

Of course you have to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Can it be done w/o receiving him and graces necessary to remain a Disciple via the Eucharist & Sacraments of the Church ?

No, of course not

Who do we receive in the bread and wine ? Who washes us of original and all subsequent ‘actual’ sins at each confession ?

Jesus

If we don’t understand / acknowledge Christ as Lord … our ‘works’ after Baptism are of naught. Recall his testimony to us in Gospel of John … “unless you eat my body and drink my cup, you have no [salvific] life within you”.

And what was Peter’s confession to Christ … that Christ acknowledged ? And, what did the 11 do on the mountain , Matt 27:52 And when they saw him THEY WORSHIPED HIM; but some doubted.

Also, Matt 27:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Hail!” And they [the two Marys] came up and TOOK HOLD OF HIS FEET AND WORSHIPED HIM.

I object to this Protestant construct of Lordship salvation. Here’s its definition from wikipedia

:“Lordship salvation” is thus the belief that the possibility of salvation depends on two separate conditions, the acceptance of Jesus Christ not only as Saviour, but also submission and obedience to Jesus Christ as “Lord”, also expressed as "Trust and Obey
Opponents of “lordship salvation” argue that it promotes a works-centered view of justification neglects the principles of faith alone and grace alone. Proponents argue that “lordship salvation” does adhere to these principles, since it regards good works not as the cause but as the consequence of salvation.

While Lordship salvation is a step closer to Catholicism that OSAS, it is far from representing the fullness of truth that the catholic church teaches. While it is true that we obey Jesus, it is not simply because he is Lord but it is out of love… You see, the driving principle underlying Catholic sotierology is love. God Loves us and frees us of sin and gives us grace through the sacraments. We are called to emulate that love, giving freely of ourselves to both God and Neighbor. It is so much more than simply obeying the Lord.

 

[moondweller]

Remember, Salvation is awarded or forfeited upon our last day —

No it isn’t. Eph 2:8 “For by grace you have been saved through faith…the gift of God;…” Notice a couple things that refute your soteriological position: (1) It says, “you have been saved.” That’s right, salvation is a present day reality for those who have believed. If it isn’t to you then there’s something wrong. **(2) ** Salvation is not “awarded,” it’s gifted at the time of personal belief; and that “not as a result of works.”

Those who live faithful lives of Obedience to Christ … are granted the grace unto salvation.

“For by grace you have been saved through FAITH…” It’s gifted at the time of personal belief in Christ, not at the end of one’s life. Yours is a works salvation.

Don’t you confess Christ as Lord Moondweller?

I certainly do. Not to get saved but because I am.

Then, why not accept the reality of Lordship Salvation … as taught in Scripture ?

Because it’s not taught in Scripture. What’s taught there is salvation “by grace through faith” in the Lord Jesus Christ; His Person and sacrificial work on our behalf.

When this is all over “at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (Phil. 2:10-11), but only those who are of faith will be numbered amongst the saved - to His glory.

 

[bluelake]

Because there is nothing we can do to “earn” salvation. God has given us the opportunity to cooperate with the grace he has bestowed upon us. It is a gift that we have the option to choose. If we choose to receive that gift we must cooperate in Gods love.

I agree. Eph.2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

God bless,
bluelake

 

[moondweller]

So you accept a modified form of FREE GRACE [plus subsequent works] ?

Look where that idea has taken some ‘Free Grace’ Evangelicals — now seeing no need for ANY subsequent works, not even teaching the need to repent of & turn away from former sins. Teaching “Where sin abounds, grace abounds the more” … following the example of Martin Luther, who broke his vows, married a nun, and sinned with gusto.

Is slandering a sin, BRB? How about bearing false witness?

 

[moondweller]

sure, he’s saved. But he can get lost again and will either need to be resaved or will be condemned

Then, by definition, he was never “saved.”

Jesus is not our substitue.

Oh but He is. Substitution is what the O.T. sacrificial system was all about. The prime example being the Day of Atonement found in Lev. 16 which prefigured Christ’s, once for all, sacrifice of Himself. He fulfilled it perfectly. His blood was shed (not ours) for the forgiveness of {our} sins. And our sins were laid on Him and He bore the wrath of God in our stead (Is. 53:6, 11; 1 Pet. 2:24; 2 Cor. 5:21). Truly He is the Substitute.

You had it right when you said: Sin separates man from God. and after you have been saved, if you continue to sin, it will still seperate you from God, and if you don’t reconcile before death, it will separate you eternally.

Christ died for ALL sins (Jn. 1:29; Heb. 9:26), and every true believer is now and forever reconciled to God through His death (Rom. 5:11; 2 Cor. 5:18; Col. 1:22).

 

[paul_c]

I agree. Eph.2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

God bless,
bluelake

Unfortunately, You can’t distill the bible down to a single line of scripture. There is much more to going to heaven than simply having faith. I recommend that you consider reading the entire bible and then correlating all the requirements to gain eternal life. Among them, you will find that you need to be baptized (John 3), eat Jesus’ body and drink his blood (john 6), follow the commandments (Matthew 19: 16-19), do works of mercy (Matthew 25: 31-46), and Love each other as Jesus loved us (John 13: 31-35). You can’t just hang your hat on Ephesians 2:8-9. because it doesn’t tell the whole story. You will also find that Love is more important than faith (1Corinthians 13). and that Faith without works is dead (James 2)

 

[moondweller]

So you accept a modified form of FREE GRACE [plus subsequent works] ?

No, not modified at all. “Grace” by definition is “free.” It’s done as “favor.” Works follow salvation that’s by grace through faith. But they are never the cause of that salvation by grace through faith.

What men do doesn’t at all change what God did. Men have been perverting the gospel for centuries. Even teaching a works salvation, or even more recently a “Lordship” salvation. Always avoiding salvation strictly by grace through faith in Christ alone. Pure grace is repugnant to men. Especially the religious ones.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
sure, he’s saved. But he can get lost again and will either need to be resaved or will be condemned

Fine, have it your way, those that sin were never saved.

Quote:
Jesus is not our substitue.

This is a complete misconception. He sacrificed himself as reparation for sin, but he is not our substitute. We are still responsible for our own sins.

Quote:
You had it right when you said: Sin separates man from God. and after you have been saved, if you continue to sin, it will still seperate you from God, and if you don’t reconcile before death, it will separate you eternally.

This is where your penchant for claiming things that aren’t actually written in scripture gets you into trouble. If Christ died for ALL sins as you claim, then no one is condemned to hell. But you don’t beleive that. You believe that only believers are saved. Further, you are now hedging by saying that only TRUE beleivers are reconciled to god through Jesus’s death. But you won’t find the term " True beleivers" in any scriptural passage either, nor will you find the definition of a true believer. You are clearly making up things and claiming them to be scriptural to support your false theology. Surely you are starting to see how easy it is for us to pick wholes in it. You simply aren’t creative enough to make a lie into the truth.and please keep in mind that I am not calling you a liar. I know you are sincere, but you have been lied to and you are simply propagating those lies.

…Try reading the entire bible and listing all the things that it says are required for eternal life. As I said in my previous post, you will find there is much more than just faith and in fact, faith is less important than love (but both are required). the bible, afterall is quite a bit longer than Ephesians 2: 8-9…

 

[paul_c]

No, not modified at all. “Grace” by definition is “free.” It’s done as “favor.” Works follow salvation that’s by grace through faith. But they are never the cause of that salvation by grace through faith.

Grace is free. but keeping it requires love.

What men do doesn’t at all change what God did. Men have been perverting the gospel for centuries. Even teaching a works salvation, or even more recently a “Lordship” salvation. Always avoiding salvation strictly by grace through faith in Christ alone. Pure grace is repugnant to men. Especially the religious ones.

You are right that men have been perverting the gospel for centuries, but you are wrong about what the perversion is. For 2000 years, doing good works and avoiding mortal sin was required to enter heaven. Only in the last 500 years has anyone dared to claim that sin doesn’t matter and that faith alone is sufficient to enter heaven. That is the true perversion and clearly is one of SATAN’s most cleaver lies. - or don’t you recognize the existance of SATAN?

 

[brb3]

Of course you have to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Savior.

While Lordship salvation is a step closer to Catholicism that OSAS, it is far from representing the fullness of truth that the catholic church teaches. While it is true that we obey Jesus, it is not simply because he is Lord but it is out of love…

Yes, paul c …

Christians serve willingly their Master. It is a Covenantal bond … forged by Love of Christ for his own. We are all brothers/sisters … united IN CHRIST, holding all things in common, demonstrating charity as few since have known. The women & the Apostles fell at feet of their RISEN Lord … worshipping their Lord, the Son of God, their Savior, Shepherd, and Counselor … as Jesus Christ Superstar !!!

Just as the Early 1st Century Christians practiced their faith … we must also. These early Christians were recognized for their love of fellowman & steadfast devotion to Christ, even taking up their Crosses unto Martyrdom, as Christ called them to. Peter, Paul, and probably all except John died violent deaths … as had Christ.

They are our early Catholic forebears !!! The first and finest Christians the world has known, and no subsequent generation has ever surpassed. We need to get back to our Catholic roots … and rediscover the love, faith, solidarity, perseverance, and devotion to Christ as Lord … that brought them to Salvation & Sainthood.

 

[brb3]

Men have been perverting the gospel for centuries. Even teaching a works salvation, or even more recently a “Lordship” salvation. Always avoiding salvation strictly by grace through faith in Christ alone.

Lordship salvation dates to the first and finest Saints of 1st Century AD. And, yes, many men have perverted that first gospel message ever since.

But, not the Catholic Church … she has Christ as head, built by Christ upon the Rock, and offering Salvation in our Lord to ALL the nations. The original, correct version of Lordship Salvation … [Covenantal, Sacramental, Beatific, Historical Orthodoxy]. Continually seeking all the lost sheep … back into her fold … to the Unity and Lordship of Christ the King.

 

[paul_c]

Yes, paul c …

Christians serve willingly their Master. It is a Covenantal bond … forged by Love of Christ for his own. We are all brothers/sisters … united IN CHRIST, holding all things in common, demonstrating charity as few since have known. The women & the Apostles fell at feet of their RISEN Lord … worshipping their Lord, the Son of God, their Savior, Shepherd, and Counselor … as Jesus Christ Superstar !!!

Just as the Early 1st Century Christians practiced their faith … we must also. These early Christians were recognized for their love of fellowman & steadfast devotion to Christ, even taking up their Crosses unto Martyrdom, as Christ called them to. Peter, Paul, and probably all except John died violent deaths … as had Christ.

They are our early Catholic forebears !!! The first and finest Christians the world has known, and no subsequent generation has ever surpassed. We need to get back to our Catholic roots … and rediscover the love, faith, solidarity, perseverance, and devotion to Christ as Lord … that brought them to Salvation & Sainthood.

Just be careful. Lordship Salvation has a specific connotation for most people and it is not fully aligned with Catholic teaching.

 

[steve_b]

What is the “proper” ubderstanding of By grace through faith? I understand the CC,ELCA, and U Methodists signed an agreement saying such…also how can people say “there’s nothing they can do to “earn” salvation”…since according to this logic you’ve got to have faith? (Especially Presbyterians who are pre-destined)

ways to look at it

• What comes to us, starts with grace
• Faith flows from grace. Faith is NOT alone.
• Both grace and faith are gifts

 

[brb3]

Is slandering a sin, BRB? How about bearing false witness?

source cited … jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Lutherans/truth_about_martin_luther.htm

“Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong [GUSTO], but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this is not a place where justice resides … No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.”

“we do everything of necessity, and nothing of ‘free-will’; for the power of ‘free-will’ is nil … Therefore , necessity, not free will, is the controlling principle of our conduct. GOD IS THE AUTHOR OF WHAT IS EVIL, as well as of what is good, and, as He bestows happiness on those who merit it not, SO ALSO DOES HE DAMN OTHERS WHO DESERVE NOT THEIR FATE.”

“… every Christian is by faith so exalted above all things that, by virtue of a spiritual power, HE IS LORD OF ALL THINGS WITHOUT EXCEPTION, SO THAT NOTHING CAN DO HIM HARM. As a matter of fact, all things are made subject to him and ARE COMPELLED TO SERVE HIM IN OBTAINING SALVATION.”

“Like the mules who will not move unless you perpetually whip them with rods, SO THE CIVIL POWERS MUST DRIVE THE COMMOM PEOPLE, WHIP, CHOKE, HANG, BURN, BEHEAD AND TORTURE THEM, that they may learn to fear the powers that be.”

"I confess that I CANNOT FORBID A PERSON TO MARRY SEVERAL WIVES, FOR IT DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE SCRIPTURE. If a man wishes to marry MORE THAN ONE WIFE he should be asked WHETHER HE IS SATISFIED WITH HIS CONSCIENCE THAT HE MAY DO SO in accordance with the word of God. "

“The book of Esther I TOSS INTO THE ELBE. I AM SUCH AN ENEMY TO THE BOOK OF ESTHER THAT I WISH IT DID NOT EXIST, FOR IT JUDAIZES TOO MUCH …”

“…the epistle of James is an EPISTLE OF STRAW, because it contains nothing evangelical… IS NOT WORTHY OF THE SPIRIT OF THE APOSTLE”

[BOOK OF REVELATIONS] … “I FEEL AN AVERSION TO IT, AND TO ME THIS IS SUFFICIENT REASON FOR REJECTING IT.”

“JEWS ARE YOUNG DEVILS DAMNED TO HELL… BURN THEIR SYNAGOGUES …we must drive them away like mad dogs…”

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MoonDweller //////////////// Who is the ‘mad dog’ … Martin L., or the Jews he judges? Also note the Changes he makes to Sacred Scripture, and the Breaking of the Ten Commandments he approves of.

 

[brb3]

Just be careful. Lordship Salvation has a specific connotation for most people and it is not fully aligned with Catholic teaching.

It looks c/w scriptures & Catholic teachings, IMO. What parts do you [or Church] reject ?

 

[fhansen]

What is the “proper” ubderstanding of By grace through faith? I understand the CC,ELCA, and U Methodists signed an agreement saying such…also how can people say “there’s nothing they can do to “earn” salvation”…since according to this logic you’ve got to have faith? (Especially Presbyterians who are pre-destined)

It’s all about grace from beginning to end. Without Gods’ taking the initiative to draw us to Him, we wouldn’t bother coming at all. But once that initiative is made, we’re to cooperate by responding with Faith in Him, which should lead to Hope in His promises, which is finally to lead to Love for Him and neighbor, thus fulfilling the greatest commandments and making us fully just. We’re not saved by grace through faith alone. We’re saved by our cooperation with God, the Potter, molding us into the beings He’s created us to be.

 

[brb3]

It’s all about grace from beginning to end. Without Gods’ taking the initiative to draw us to Him, we wouldn’t bother coming at all. But once that initiative is made, we’re to cooperate by responding with Faith in Him, which should lead to Hope in His promises, which is finally to lead to Love for Him and neighbor, thus fulfilling the greatest commandments and making us fully just. We’re not saved by grace through faith alone. We’re saved by our cooperation with God, the Potter, molding us into the beings He’s created us to be.

That is beautiful …

The most profound, original & personal truth spoke here in many moons. U are a poet !

 

[moondweller]

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MoonDweller //////////////// Who is the ‘mad dog’ … Martin L., or the Jews he judges? Also note the Changes he makes to Sacred Scripture, and the Breaking of the Ten Commandments he approves of.

Give me examples of where Luther himself sinned “with gusto,” which you accused him of doing.

 

[moondweller]

It’s all about grace from beginning to end. Without Gods’ taking the initiative to draw us to Him, we wouldn’t bother coming at all. But once that initiative is made, we’re to cooperate by responding with Faith in Him, which should lead to Hope in His promises, which is finally to lead to Love for Him and neighbor, thus fulfilling the greatest commandments and making us fully just. We’re not saved by grace through faith alone. We’re saved by our cooperation with God, the Potter, molding us into the beings He’s created us to be.

Translated, salvation by works. Of course you would find this “beautiful,” BRB, since you contrived your own personal covenant of works with God for your salvation.Rom 11:6 “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” “Grace” (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) is how GOD saves the sinner upon personal faith in Christ. Not how He enables a sinner to save himself by works.Eph 2:8-0 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit”