Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[pablope]

They do jibe quite well. The Reformed (e.g., Presbyterians) see the bible as teaching a “2-step” Christianity.

The 1st would be God’s doing alone. He saves us without any contribution from us whatsoever. We haven’t even begun to change; we haven’t “turned over a new leaf”; we are not only dead in our trespasses and sins, we are also enemies of God who wish Him dead and would do anything in our power to kill Him. Yet He sends His only Son to die for such as us. Jesus willingly gave His life for those who hated Him. (Now that’s true love!) This is what the Protestant means by “justification by grace alone.” It’s the one-time event wherein God alone did for us what we cannot do for ourselves. And it’s permanent. (e.g., Romans 8:38-39)

The 2nd step would be the Holy Spirit-wrought change that comes upon us. We now wish to do His will, rather than kill Him, because we love Him. Not “in order to” (thank you Tony DeMello, S.J. - back in the early '80s I took a 7-day retreat under him) get into heaven; not in order to make any demands upon Him; not in order to get anything from Him. But simply because the Christian is now a transformed new creation. This is what God has prepared for us to do from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4). This is what the Protestant calls the “process of sanctification.” It also serves to explain Philippians 2:12.

So the Protestant looks at Matthew 7:21 and understands that the Lord is telling us that not everyone who claims to be a believer truly is. That’s why Matthew 7:20 comes ahead of this. [An aside: James 1:26

is a marvelous exposition of the same. What fruits does the Christian exhibit? Does he/she control their tongue? Do they help the widow and orphan? If not one may truly wonder whether their profession is truly a confession or not.

So I’m trying not to get Roman Catholics and Protestant riled up and throwing Scripture verses and theological terms at one another. Rather, I’m trying to insure that Roman Catholics (and unlearned Protestants too!) understand - truly understand - where the Reformed position is coming from. This would help keep us from making statements based on what we don’t know rather than what we do know. And if we don’t know … ask. It’s simple humility to do so.

However, this really isn’t even the starting point that separates Roman Catholics and Protestants. One would have to dig deeper and “transcend” (using Rahner’s understanding of that term) the obvious in order to get to the crux of the matter.

Thanks for a wonderful post!

In His Name,
Kevin

Hi, Kevin…I should thank you for a very wonderful and refreshing post.

Just out of curiosity, aren’t Calvinists the Reformed ones? Or does this include Presbyterians too (pardon my ignorance).

You do not adhere to OSAS, do you?

[An aside: The thing is, Roman Catholicism and Protestantism will disagree on this because Roman Catholicism combines the two (justification/sanctification) into one process

while the Protestant distinguishes them.]

How does the Protestant distinguish them? Shouldn’t it be a congruent, continuing process? And not do step one, then do step two?

Note Matthew 7:23. Jesus says “I NEVER knew you.” Presbyterians see this as indicative of predestination.]

How does this indicate pre-destination.

Blessings to you…

pablope

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller …

You know most Catholics don’t speak of being SAVED, until their last day.

That’s why there’s no concept of “saved” in Catholicism. No Catholic can say with confidence, “I am saved.” As long as you believe that you must participate in your own salvation, no assurance of salvation can exist. It doesn’t matter what you believe about Christ, ultimately it’s what YOU DO that counts.

For some, the words ‘saved’ and ‘salvation’ are synonomous.

Well, one who has been “saved” has “salvation.”

They await Christ to say to them on their last day … "Well done, my good & faithful servant, enter into my glory… "

Because they think (hope) they’ll be granted entrance based on their works (“well done”). They have no assurance of salvation because they don’t know if they’ll die in a “state of grace.”

We well know that scripture teaches that many having faith ALONE … fell back into unbelief, having never learned to conquer their love of this life, having failed to PERSEVERE in Well Doing, having forsaken their Lord.

You think persevering in “well doing” saves? I have yet to meet anyone who has fallen “back” into unbelief. I have met those who have professed belief, but in time they, like the Galatians, fell from grace, desiring instead to be justified by works. In truth, they had no faith.

ALL Catholics understand they are brought to adoption IN CHRIST by his grace … and not of their Works or Obedience to the Mosaic Law.

But not brought into salvation. This they believe requires works. They also believe they must obey the Law, i.e., the Decalogue, in order to obtain eternal life. That’s works of the Law. The Decalogue is an integral part of the Law.

Thus, when Catholic speak of WORKS … its not an infant or child’s attempts to gain God’s favor by LEGALISM — in all aspect of Jewish laws. Catholics are referring to their LIFE LIVED AFTER initial justification by grace, via baptism

Can you show me in Scripture where it says water baptism justifies anyone? Even “initially”? What does Rom. 3:30 say? How about Rom. 5:1?

Only now are the Spirit-Filled Catholic children speaking of their need for ‘Works’, befitting their adoption IN CHRIST.

And their need for works in their hope for a future salvation. Salvation is not a present reality for you, or any who rely on their works.

So … your making a perpetual brouhaha over WORKS is getting tiresome and tedious.

BRB, you made a covenant of works with God for your salvation, even though Paul explicitly states: “.…not as a result of works.” If it’s not a result of works, then what is it (salvation) the result of?

You admit that a professing Protestant/Reformed Christian whose life does not bear fruit [works enabled by grace, and planned from the creation of the world for God’s elect] … is seriously confused, immature, or a pretender.

I contend, and agree with Paul, that salvation is “…not as a result of works,” period.

Catholics are not Judiazers, backslidden and returned to Jewish Legalistic understandings, … and you portray them. Rather, they are Persevering in their Discipleship … and giving God the Glory for all acts of charity, piety, evangelism, teaching, almsgiving, prayers for others, etc.

And they believe such works will contribute to their salvation, even though Paul explicitly states: “…not as a result of works.”

They are simply following the Beatitudes as Christ taught us to, they are striving to live a holy life …

All for the hope of a future salvation. They, and you, believe there is no salvation without those works. Hence, salvation by works. Yet Paul says quite clearly, “…not as a result of works.” And elsewhere: “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.” There’s your “disconnect.” You and Paul.

 

[brb3]

No Catholic can say with confidence, “I am saved.” As long as you believe that you must participate in your own salvation, no assurance of salvation can exist. It doesn’t matter what you believe about Christ, ultimately it’s what YOU DO that counts.

:nope: This is ridiculous !!! Catholics KNOW if they are ABIDING IN CHRIST, or living the Prodigal life with unconfessed Mortal sinning. The H.S. convicts us thereof.

Recall the first 12, plus Paul in first century, were commissioned by Christ for their life’s mission … they had the CONFIDENCE/CONVICTION TO PERSEVERE TIL THEIR MARTYRDOMS, save for John [who was assigned to care for MARY] & spent time in exile on Patmos, writing our final book and insuring that the next group of Catholic ECF’s were confident in their ‘high calling’ to live IN CHRIST and teaching them not to fall back, as Judas, into unbelief.

And, … it’s all about our Faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. It’s LORDSHIP SALVATION /// as Apostolic, “CATHOLIC” defined … revealed to us in both scripture & traditions, taught by Christ to those in 1st Century, and preserved within Christ’s Church Universal.

So yes, it’s what we do that matters !!! We must live a life devoted to our ‘high callings’ IN CHRIST. We must not ‘fail’ to REPENT & confess our sins and take up our Crosses DAILY, and allow Christ to MOLD our lives on the Potter’s Wheel !!! We learn that Suffering for Christ is part/parcel of Discipleship.

But, its also about what we DON’T DO … we must not 'grow weary in well-doing, and ‘FAIL TO’ PERSEVERE. Apart from the Catholic Church, that is a very difficult matter my brother !!! I tried to Persevere, Protestant style, with OSAS understandings … and that was a disaster !!! I fell back into my SUPERSIZED Pride and Sexual Lusts … breaking ALL of Big 10, on 3 major occasions [lasting years at a time, w/o darkening door of church or praying]. If someone had asked me during those years if I was Christian, I’d of said YES. But, it would of been an answer predicated on my INITIAL faith & justification by God, not my current state, since I was subsequently living OUTSIDE of CHRIST & w/o the H.S. I was living a major caliber Prodigal life … so don’t tell me it isn’t possible to FALL FROM GRACE, back into our sinful past ! You are clueless / delusional on this matter.

But, praise be to God !!! On my 3rd excusion off the reservation … Christ lead me back TO THE FATHER, thru major repentance / penance, and revealed the Catholic Church to me. This time I really have the CONFIDENCE TO KNOW I can Persevere, being a part of the original Church Christ founded. The Church provides ample means for our recovery from occasional sins, and teaches us to live lives of holiness, and provides us the SACRAMENTS, which continually bring us to confession and receipt of God’s ongoing daily graces to his Flock. It is our OASIS in this life.

Your living the Christian life apart from the Catholic Church is a very difficult road my friend. And, when you fall back into, or start to realize your current UNCONFESSED mortal’s, ----- don’t delay, make your way to Catholicism and get into God’s real ‘recovery program’, that enables PERSEVERANCE til your last day & a FINAL SALVATION !!

Recall the words of Christ to those he healed and justified … “GO AND SIN NO MORE” !!! This is where Catholicism EXCELS !! It teaches us how to remain faithful, and how to QUICKLY recover from our missteps … before we LEAVE God’s SAFE HARBOR / OASIS, ---- His Church Universal, MILITANT and TRIUMPHANT.

---

So, to answer your question it’s BOTH !! Not just what God does ALONE for us. Yes, God FIRST draws via grace … but, we must COOPERATE with that offerred grace and respond. And, once we receive our initial Justification [by Grace, thru faith … not of works lest anyman boast] from Christ, we must continue as disciples [by active choice]. We must Chose to “follow and give up mortal sinning” … we must grow into lives of holiness, via discipleship, and maturity that Paul taught was essential. WE must cooperate with God’s calling for us and REMAIN steadfast and ‘worthy disciples’, growing in wisdom, understanding, and bearing fruit … ‘gracious works’ worthy of discipleship. So, Catholics know TODAY that we are SAVED [living lives of holiness, and fully confess/repentant] … but, we also know that apart from the Catholic Church and continued Obedience to Christ, our tomorrows are very PROBLEMATIC.

Martin Luther started out well … but, apart from the Catholic Church his life fell into chaos. Did he repent of his error on his last day and recover ? God alone knows. Let us not presume that we too cannot be pulled off back into error and major mortal sinning by satan. satan was allowed to tempt even Christ. Are you / I above his temptation, even once redeemed ? Was Job spared such temptation and misery ?

So, again its COVENANTAL bonding to Christ, the Catholic/Apostolic way, that allows us to have CONFIDENCE IN OUR ABILITY TO PERSEVERE unto FINAL Salvation. Catholics HAVE BEEN saved, we ARE saved, and if we CHOOSE TO PERSEVERE til our ends … we WILL BE SAVED !! Remember, CHRIST NEVER LEAVES OR FORSAKES US … its always we who leave first, choosing not to repent and remain his disciples. We must cooperate with grace offered, and continue to receive God’s grace thruout our lives. So its not ONE & DONE, OSAS as you errantly believe. That is utterly not supportable by scripture, or our lived reality. We can turn back, even on our final day … as did Judas.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

You think persevering in “well doing” saves? I have yet to meet anyone who has fallen “back” into unbelief. I have met those who have professed belief, but in time they, like the Galatians, fell from grace, desiring instead to be justified by works. In truth, they had no faith.

Yes, this is the illogical circular argument professed by those who follow the benighted teachings of the Moody Bible institute, not what’s in the Bible. You can’t throw out 90% of the NT because your favorite verses say everything you care to hear. You have twisted and perverted the other 90% to suit your favorite 10%

You and your kind, always say, if someone “falls from grace” after being saved, its because they never had Faith in the first place, as you say in your quote above.

In other words you are teaching a religion of self-deception and lies! If you can keep convincing yourself you never sin, then you must have Faith, because if on the contrary you do sin, you never had Faith. Yet you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. You thought you had Faith, but if you admit you sin, then you never had Faith, Oh what pernicious doctrine indeed! Most unbiblical.

 

[Bookcat]

Pope Benedict XVI on these topics in Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

and the older one

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Pope Benedict XVI on these topics in Paul

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

and the older one

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

GREAT LINKS! Thanks

 

[moondweller]

:nope: This is ridiculous !!! Catholics KNOW if they are ABIDING IN CHRIST,

How do you know for certain? Do you get a Divine message at the end of each day stamped “approved” or “disapproved?”

The H.S. convicts us thereof.

How do you now it’s the H.S. convicting you? How do you know it’s not just a self-righteous opinion of yourself? What you’re saying is your “assurance” is based on how you feel about yourself at the moment.

And, … it’s all about our Faith in Christ as Lord and Savior. It’s LORDSHIP SALVATION

Then, ultimately, it’s all about you and what YOU do.

So yes, it’s what we do that matters !!! We must live a life devoted to our ‘high callings’ IN CHRIST. We must not ‘fail’ to REPENT & confess our sins and take up our Crosses DAILY, and allow Christ to MOLD our lives on the Potter’s Wheel !!! We learn that Suffering for Christ is part/parcel of Discipleship.

According to the above your salvation depends on you. So, ultimately, you save yourself.

But, its also about what we DON’T DO … we must not 'grow weary in well-doing, and ‘FAIL TO’ PERSEVERE.

Yes, your salvation is based on a list of do(s) and don’t(s). That’s called salvation by works, my friend.

I tried to Persevere, Protestant style, with OSAS understandings … and that was a disaster !!! I fell back into my SUPERSIZED Pride and Sexual Lusts … breaking ALL of Big 10, on 3 major occasions [lasting years at a time, w/o darkening door of church or praying

So the only way that can keep you living a sensible life is the threat of Hell hanging over you?

If someone had asked me during those years if I was Christian, I’d of said YES. But, it would of been an answer predicated on my INITIAL faith & justification by God, not my current state, since I was subsequently living OUTSIDE of CHRIST & w/o the H.S.

Can you show me in the Scriptures where the word “initial” is attached to the words faith and justification? If you were living “outside of Christ” and without the Holy Spirit, then, based on Rom. 8:9 you never belonged to Christ.

I was living a major caliber Prodigal life … so don’t tell me it isn’t possible to FALL FROM GRACE, back into our sinful past ! You are clueless / delusional on this matter.

To “fall from grace” means to have heard the gospel of grace but desire rather to be justified by works (the principle of law).

This time I really have the CONFIDENCE TO KNOW I can Persevere

And you believe God will eventually save you based on your ability to persevere. Hoping for that final, great “well done.”

Your living the Christian life apart from the Catholic Church is a very difficult road my friend.

For you. I live my life as Paul did:Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the {life} which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."Also, how shall I who has died TO sin (with Christ) still live in it (Rom. 6:2)? It would be very difficult for me to “live” in the very sins which were imputed to my Lord on the cross and for which He had to suffer and di unto (and I with Him). I would be in torment. Still saved, but, nonetheless, in torment - miserable. I find no joy in living in sin. I don’t know how you did. Doesn’t mean I don’t sin, but for me there’s no joy in living in it. When I do sin I thank God He’s forgiven me through Christ. But I never enjoy sin.

And, when you fall back into… UNCONFESSED mortal’s

Don’t judge people based on your own weaknesses and fleshly appetites. I don’t serve Him out of compulsion. I am not my own. I belong to Him. I was bought (purchased/redeemed) with a precious price, the blood of Christ (1 Cor. 6:18-20; 1 Pet. 1:18-19).

get into God’s real ‘recovery program’

I’ve been recovered. I’m not a “recovering sinner,” I’m a saint by calling (1 Cor. 1:2).

Recall the words of Christ to those he healed and justified … “GO AND SIN NO MORE” !!!

Recall the words of John the Baptist: “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” And the words of the writer of Hebrews who tells us that “…now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”

So, again its COVENANTAL bonding to Christ, the Catholic/Apostolic way,

“Covenant” bonding is salvation by works.

that allows us to have CONFIDENCE IN OUR ABILITY TO PERSEVERE unto FINAL Salvation.

See what I mean?

…and if we CHOOSE TO PERSEVERE til our ends … we WILL BE SAVED !!

See what I mean?

Remember, CHRIST NEVER LEAVES OR FORSAKES US … its always we who leave first, choosing not to repent and remain his disciples. We must cooperate with grace offered, and continue to receive God’s grace thruout our lives. So its not ONE & DONE, OSAS as you errantly believe. That is utterly not supportable by scripture, or our lived reality. We can turn back, even on our final day … as did Judas.

So Christ will leave you. IOW, no Catholic has assurance of salvation. Works can provide no assurance. For a Catholic salvation is never a present day reality (through faith in Christ and what He’s DONE), but only a “hope so” finality, based on what you have done.
[/quote]

 

[moondweller]

You and your kind, always say, if someone “falls from grace” after being saved, its because they never had Faith in the first place, as you say in your quote above.

I don’t say that any one who is saved can “fall from grace.”

To have “fallen from grace” is found in the Book of Galatians and pertains to those in that region that heard Paul’s gospel of salvation “by grace through faith” in Christ but desired rather to be justified by works (law). To have taken such a path: justification by works (law), they had severed themselves from Christ, they had fallen from grace. They were never saved.

In other words you are teaching a religion of self-deception and lies! If you can keep convincing yourself you never sin, then you must have Faith, because if on the contrary you do sin, you never had Faith. Yet you accepted Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

The fact that I have sin (convicted of it), have sinned (convicted of it), and still do sin in this yet unredeemed (yet un-glorified) body) caused me to, by faith, turn to Christ for the forgiveness of my sins and to be gifted salvation.

You thought you had Faith, but if you admit you sin, then you never had Faith,

On the contrary, I put my faith in Christ (God’s sin-Bearer - of my sins) BECAUSE I’ve sinned. I knew I was in great need of a Savior. One who could save me from my sins. That’s what faith is. If I’d lived a sinless life (or even thought I did) I would have had no need for Christ or faith in Him. This is very Biblical, indeed.

 

[fhansen]

How do you know for certain? Do you get a Divine message at the end of each day stamped “approved” or “disapproved?”
How do you now it’s the H.S. convicting you? How do you know it’s not just a self-righteous opinion of yourself? What you’re saying is your “assurance” is based on how you feel about yourself at the moment.

But how do you know you’re saved? You’re trusting in your faith-having faith in your own faith-that you’re reading and understanding scripture correctly.

But I never enjoy sin.

Then why would you ever sin?

IOW, no Catholic has assurance of salvation. Works can provide no assurance. For a Catholic salvation is never a present day reality (through faith in Christ and what He’s DONE), but only a “hope so” finality, based on what you have done.

No, I can’t speak for all but Catholics do have assurance of salvation. Hope, in Catholic theology, is the virtue of placing ones confidence in the promises of God-and happens to be a work of grace, itself, like faith is. The difference is we don’t have *over *confidence; we have confidence salted with humility. We know that only God judges the world, well supported by the whole of scripture, and that only He knows with 100% certainty our eternal destiny.

 

[Globachio]

Just out of curiosity, aren’t Calvinists the Reformed ones? Or does this include Presbyterians too (pardon my ignorance).

Actually you’re closer to getting it right tha you think. “Reformed” describes a large group of denominations (e.g., PCA, OPC, CRC, etc. - we love alphabet soup) While “Calvinist” is more of a theological point of view found among disparate groups as some Baptists, Episcopelians, Anglicans, etc. Yeah, kinda hard to get one’s head around, but think of “Reformed” as churches and denominations, while “Calvinism” is more of a theological movement.

You do not adhere to OSAS, do you?

I’m not sure what that is. Never heard of it before.

How does the Protestant distinguish them? Shouldn’t it be a congruent, continuing process? And not do step one, then do step two? How does this indicate predestination?

Again, not sure what you’re asking here. Could you be a bit more to the point?

Just glad to give info when asked, and learn when possible. I’ve been online since about 1992 and have been through those “flame wars.” Ugh. Very nasty stuff. Just nice to speak with someone who can both listen and teach me.

In Christ’s Name,
Kevin

 

[Cruxis117]

How do you know for certain? Do you get a Divine message at the end of each day stamped “approved” or “disapproved?”

We know for certain because of the Sacraments, which are visible assurances of God’s grace. Those who truly live the Christian life, not committing mortal sin, have certainty of salvation.

How do you now it’s the H.S. convicting you? How do you know it’s not just a self-righteous opinion of yourself? What you’re saying is your “assurance” is based on how you feel about yourself at the moment.

We could say the same about you, you could be having a self-righteous opinion about yourself. Our assurance is not based on what we feel, Please, don’t fill your head with misunderstandings. Our assurance is based on what the Church has taught us, which is that mortal sin can and does remove salvation, when left unrepented.

Then, ultimately, it’s all about you and what YOU do.

Actually, you’re pretty close to the mark. For Jesus died for not only us, for for the whole world (1 John 2:2). However, we know that not everyone will be saved. Therefore, we must repent.

Oh, wait, you think that Salvation comes from us? Salvation comes from God alone. It is a gift, which can be either accepted or rejected. Our actions are a response to God and his grace that he has given.

According to the above your salvation depends on you. So, ultimately, you save yourself.

As I’ve said above, Jesus saves. We respond. Think about it as what is said in Hebrews:

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

They were sanctified, yet they turned their backs on Christ, and profaned the blood of the covenant. Obviously, their response to Jesus and his sacrifice is clear.

Yes, your salvation is based on a list of do(s) and don’t(s). That’s called salvation by works, my friend.

Are his works alone? Or do are they under grace with faith?
For as you believe, we believe that by Grace through faith we’ve been saved (Ephesians 2:8-9), but this faith must be working through love (Galatians 5:6). If he was saying works alone, without having accepted the gift of Jesus and his Grace, which gives us faith, then you would be correct. However, that is not the case.

So the only way that can keep you living a sensible life is the threat of Hell hanging over you?

I think it’s the understanding that the Calvinist teachings of OSAS and such have failed. By understanding how much we will lose if we fall, we strive to stand, with the help of Jesus.

Can you show me in the Scriptures where the word “initial” is attached to the words faith and justification? If you were living “outside of Christ” and without the Holy Spirit, then, based on Rom. 8:9 you never belonged to Christ.

You are correct, there is no “initial” word found in the Scriptures. However, do not tell me you do not agree with the idea that once you accept that grace and have faith and are justified, from that point on you are saved. That would be the standard Protestant understanding. Whereas Catholics are saved, are being saved, and will be saved.

To “fall from grace” means to have heard the gospel of grace but desire rather to be justified by works (the principle of law).

I would disagree, as the letter is addressed to the Churches of Galatia. And these Churches would have heard the Gospel in order to be a Church. However, I do agree that yes, to fall from grace as depicted in Galatians is to reject grace, which is a human action. I’m glad we agree.

And you believe God will eventually save you based on your ability to persevere. Hoping for that final, great “well done.”

Are you telling me that the Scriptures are wrong? Are we not to “fight the good fight of faith”? (1 Timothy 6:12). Again, you have misunderstood. God will save us on our response to his grace, which saves. It is Jesus who saves, it is us who responds to his gift of salvation. We are simply fighting the good fight of faith.

I live my life as Paul did…I would be in torment. Still saved, but, nonetheless, in torment - miserable. I find no joy in living in sin. I don’t know how you did. Doesn’t mean I don’t sin, but for me there’s no joy in living in it. When I do sin I thank God He’s forgiven me through Christ. But I never enjoy sin.

Nor do I, or any other Catholics. Likewise, this does not mean that we are not capable of enjoying sin.

Don’t judge people based on your own weaknesses and fleshly appetites. I don’t serve Him out of compulsion. I am not my own. I belong to Him. I was bought (purchased/redeemed) with a precious price, the blood of Christ (1 Cor. 6:18-20; 1 Pet. 1:18-19).

As were we. Likewise, there are many who stumble and fall. What he felt is what many others have felt.

To be continued in the next post…

 

[Cruxis117]

I’ve been recovered. I’m not a “recovering sinner,” I’m a saint by calling (1 Cor. 1:2).

We are all sinners, this is a basic fact. Likewise, we are also called saints, and we will truly be Saints who are free from sin in Heaven.

Recall the words of John the Baptist… And the words of the writer of Hebrews who tells us that “…now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.”“Covenant” bonding is salvation by works.

Are you saying that Jesus is not the mediator of the New Covenant? Furthermore, I completely agree with John the Baptist and the writer of Hebrews.

So Christ will leave you. IOW, no Catholic has assurance of salvation. Works can provide no assurance. For a Catholic salvation is never a present day reality (through faith in Christ and what He’s DONE), but only a “hope so” finality, based on what you have done.

Did you misread something? Christ will never leave us. We are capable of, and some have actually left Jesus. Works alone can provide no assurance. Faith alone, likewise, cannot provide assurance. Grace, with Faith and Works, provide Assurance. For a Catholic, such as myself, you are correct. It is not a present day reality only. As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). This is the true reality of a Catholic. Not your misunderstanding of what it is.

 

[moondweller]

But how do you know you’re saved? You’re trusting in your faith-having faith in your own faith-that you’re reading and understanding scripture correctly.

No, I’m not trusting in my faith. I have three witnesses to the fact that I am SAVED (a present and eternal reality): (1) a vacant cross and an empty tomb (the work of my salvation, finished, once for all); (2) The written Word of God; (3) The Holy Spirit who indwells me.

Then why would you ever sin?

Same reason you do. But the context was not enjoying “living in” sin.

No, I can’t speak for all but Catholics do have assurance of salvation. Hope, in Catholic theology, is the virtue of placing ones confidence in the promises of God-and happens to be a work of grace, itself, like faith is. The difference is we don’t have *over *confidence; we have confidence salted with humility. We know that only God judges the world, well supported by the whole of scripture, and that only He knows with 100% certainty our eternal destiny.

Then you have no assurance.

 

[Cruxis117]

No, I can’t speak for all but Catholics do have assurance of salvation. Hope, in Catholic theology, is the virtue of placing ones confidence in the promises of God-and happens to be a work of grace, itself, like faith is. The difference is we don’t have over confidence; we have confidence salted with humility.

Then you have no assurance.

You’ve misunderstood his post. We do have assurance. However, it is also humility which drives us, as fhansen has noted. Furthermore, God is the only one who knows 100%, without a doubt, because he’s God. This doesn’t contradict that we have assurance. Again, this is a large misunderstanding.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

I don’t say that any one who is saved can “fall from grace.”

To have “fallen from grace” is found in the Book of Galatians and pertains to those in that region that heard Paul’s gospel of salvation “by grace through faith” in Christ but desired rather to be justified by works (law). To have taken such a path: justification by works (law), they had severed themselves from Christ, they had fallen from grace. They were never saved.

Still you admit that there is such a thing as “falling from grace.” You claim the only possible way one can fall from grace is to take the path of justification by works (the Law.) BTW, St. Paul is talking about the Jews who thought they were justified by following the Law to the letter, not his fellow Christians who lived their Faith with holy works. (But that is just one of your errors.) Are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to sin once you have been “saved” other than your ridiculous single sin, (living like a Jew who is justified by following the Law to the letter?) Are you denying that man has a free will once he has been “saved?”

 

[moondweller]

Still you admit that there is such a thing as “falling from grace.” You claim the only possible way one can fall from grace is to take the path of justification by works (the Law.)

To “fall from grace” is not to lose salvation, but to never have it. Why? Because they turn their backs to God’s grace (through Christ alone) and seek rather to be justified by law (the principle of), which is works. To go that route one is “severed from Christ.” IOW, Christ does them no good.

BTW, St. Paul is talking about the Jews who thought they were justified by following the Law to the letter, not his fellow Christians who lived their Faith with holy works.

Paul was addressing those Galatians who desired to be justified by works rather than “by faith” (read chapter three several times).

Are you saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to sin once you have been “saved”

How did you come up with that? However, for the true believer it’s impossible to be eternally condemned because of sin (even your so-called “mortal” sin). Why? Because Christ bore them all in His body on the cross (even the so-called “mortal” ones, 1 Pet. 2:24) and died TO them, once for all (Rom. 6:10). The issue now is not sin but belief for salvation: “For by grace you have been saved through faith…the gift of God, not as a result of works”

Are you denying that man has a free will once he has been “saved?”

Not at all. But God has not left salvation in the hands of men. but the work of ONE Man, the Man Christ Jesus. Men enter into that salvation (into a saved state) by grace (apart from works) through faith (in what Christ has done for us). It’s gifted by the free will of God, the Giver, who is free to gift it because of the One who gave Himself for us.

Simply, it’s a matter of belief vs. unbelief. You are free to believe the good news message concerning Christ, or not. It’s your free will choice.John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."So, your free will choice bears eternal consequences.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

To “fall from grace” is not to lose salvation, but to never have it. Why? Because they turn their backs to God’s grace (through Christ alone) and seek rather to be justified by law (the principle of), which is works. To go that route one is “severed from Christ.” IOW, Christ does them no good.

Ok, I know logic is not your strong suit, but try to follow me here:

You admit that it is possible to fall from grace, but you are quick to add, that it doesn’t mean one lost their salvation, why? Because they never had it!

That’s circular logic my friend.

The very thing that one supposedly loses is the very thing they never had! Wait, what?! Either there is something there to lose or there isn’t. St. Paul thought there was really something there. Nowhere does St. Paul say that it is possible to lose something because you never had it to begin with!

You can’t have it both ways. Either people have a free will, and A: after accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and supposedly having Faith, and to all their born again friends and relatives they are safely saved too. But, then, free will rears its head, and the person doesn’t commit murder (that’s ok), doesn’t break every other commandment ever taught in the Bible (that’s ok too,) NO! This person has done the ultimate nasty deed. He has decided to live like the Ancient Jews, and place his hope of justification in the Law of Moses (As St. Paul warns against) This, according to you and your born again fellows is the ONLY thing that can cause one to “fall from grace.” BUT OH WAIT! It turns out that person NEVER had Faith in the first place! Goodness! But we all thought he accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. That poor deluded devil. But I guess all his friends and relatives were poor deluded devils too!

Or B: a person has NO free will, and once they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they are incapable of sinning of doing anything wrong. They are forever saved, and they can be ASSURED THEY ARE SAVED NO MATTER WHAT!!

Is it any wonder the born again error appeals so much to people? Who needs the worry, the cares of living a life of Faith. Without free will, one is simply saved and goes through life singing tra-la! Waiting for the rapture and pitying all those Christians that take the OTHER 90% of the Bible seriously, not just a few phrases from St. Paul’s epistles, lifted out of context, and misinterpreted to boot.

 

[brb3]

To “fall from grace” is not to lose salvation, but to never have it. Why? Because they turn their backs to God’s grace (through Christ alone) and seek rather to be justified by law (the principle of), which is works.

So … lets examine what you say above. You think to ‘fall from grace’ means they were OFFERED grace … but, didn’t ACCEPT it ? That they rejected, turned their backs on ‘offered’ grace. You think these folks had not expressed faith [alone], and been JUSTIFIED ?

This is non-sensical Soteriology. For you, FAITH ALONE saves for ALL TIMES … but, clearly these folks were once BELIEVERS, having once expressed Faith in the Gospel … and per your OSAS doctrine, could not fall away !!! Thus, the error in your interpretation of scripture … which leads to the massive disconnects, when you encounter the other 98% of Paul’s teachings on Salvation !

If Paul meant what you believe … he would of said they REJECTED God’s offer of grace. Paul is very clear in how he uses words. So, your ‘imagined’ translation is offbase.

Go back to the plate, and take another swing at bat !!

 

[brb3]

To “fall from grace” means to have heard the gospel of grace but desire rather to be justified by works (the principle of law).

NO !! Rather, it means we ABANDON our FIRST FAITH / OUR FIRST LOVE. We turn away from Christ & return to the Secular / Prodigal / or Legalistic life … from which we were Redeemed from.

For Jews … it would be back to Legalism.
For Greeks/Romans/Modern man … it would be to Song & Dance, Sex/Drugs/Rock-n-roll, materialism, etc.
For the Intellectual … it might be Agnostic / Atheistic Theorys, etc.

 

[brb3]

That’s why there’s no concept of “saved” in Catholicism. No Catholic can say with confidence, “I am saved.” As long as you believe that you must participate in your own salvation, no assurance of salvation can exist.

This is absurd !! We just told you Catholics WERE SAVED, ARE SAVED, and INTEND [confidently hope] to Be SAVED in our future … provided we CONTINUE as disciples IN CHRIST.

Perseverance is ESSENTIAL … and ALL Reborn Catholics are 4-square set on PERSEVERING til our last day. Thus, we can say with MORE confidence than you … that we will finish the race, having remained faithful disciples til we are greated by St. Peter, Paul, John, all the Apostles & Christ, … and see God’s KOH [Kingdom of Heaven].

I say with MORE confidence, because we are joined to Christ’s Universal Church [the Church which Christ has assured us in scripture will NEVER FAIL, we receive the SACRAMENTS on weekly basis, we confess daily to Christ and at minimum … annually to God’s priests, and we recognize our spiritual mother Mary and the great cloud of Saintly witnesses, …cheering us to the finish line, and bringing us aid [grace] from our Lord to sustain us to our last day !!

We also understand we each have a Guardian Angel assigned to us … to warn us of impending dangers. We also believe God gives us periodic Signs in life … which are provided to keep us reassured/confident/hopeful of our Pilgrim’s Progress in this life, and our ultimate Perserverance. Finally, we also Pray for Perseverance … prayers which Christ grants us … Day-by-Day !!! As long as we remain IN CHRIST … our Salvation is ASSURED !!!

Just look how many Catholics here at CAF sign off their posts with ‘IN CHRIST’ words ! This expresses their confident assurance that their Salvation is presently secured in/by the Lord.