Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

To “fall from grace” is not to lose salvation, but to never have it. Why? Because they turn their backs to God’s grace (through Christ alone) and seek rather to be justified by law (the principle of), which is works. To go that route one is “severed from Christ.” IOW, Christ does them no good.

Here’s another conundrum for the born agains. How do they interpret Jesus’ parable of the prodigal son? Oooh. That’s awkward eh. In the parable of the prodigal son Jesus talks about repentance and reconciliation. What an odd concept when you know you are ASSURED of salvation no matter what. I wonder what Jesus could have been talking about.

Maybe our born agains will say it doesn’t apply to them, but only to those who have yet to repent, and accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior. But, unfortunately, that doesn’t square with the parable. In the parable the son is already saved. He already enjoys WITH ASSURANCE his inheritance with his Father. No, Jesus can’t be speaking of people who had no inheritance and then by accepting Him as their Lord and savior now had an inheritance. But was Jesus talking about people who ALREADY HAD their inheritance assured, but then lost it??? That wouldn’t make sense to a born again, because the ONLY way they can lose their ASSURED SALVATION (Inheritance) is by not having it in the first place. Moondweller has assured us of that dogma. But what if Jesus IS TALKING about actually having an assured inheritance, and then losing it. Well, according to the parable, the prodigal son asked the father for his inheritance, and then left him to go do as he pleased. In the parable the prodigal son squanders his whole inheritance and is left wretched and miserable. OK, I think even the born agains will have to admit, that first there WAS an inheritance, and then IT WAS LOST. That something (Salvation, inheritance) actually existed and then was actually lost. That’s what the parable says anyway. I don’t think the born again can argue that the prodigal son never had his inheritance in the first place can he? No, I think we can all see one moment he had it, and the next moment he didn’t have it.

The parable goes on to say that the prodigal son had an inspiration. He thought of repentance. Even as a slave in his Father’s house (doing lots of works) he would live better than he was now. So the prodigal son repents, and returns to his father. The Father as we know, with fatherly love and FORGIVENESS welcomes back the prodigal son into his inheritance!

Now the born agains will have to do some pretty fancy footwork to negate the fact that the parable of the prodigal son is talking about repentance and forgiveness. The loss of one’s inheritance and the restoration of that inheritance. The fact that the prodigal son FIRST MUST RETURN to the father in repentance. This isn’t a story about accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. This is a story about someone who HAD AND INHERITANCE ASSURED, and then lost it. It’s a story about what happened when the prodigal son repented and had his lost inheritance restored.

Repentance and forgiveness, something that born agains have no need of, yet the Bible is full of practically nothing else. How odd. But I guess if you can ignore 90% of the Bible, it’s no biggie.

 

[moondweller]

Originally posted by moondweller View Post

Read it for yourself:Gal 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Anyone who seeks to be justified by any form of works was not/is not saved:Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Paul is always consistent with his soteriology: By grace, through faith, gift of God, NOT as a result of works - period.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

To “fall from grace” is not to lose salvation, but to never have it. Why? Because they turn their backs to God’s grace (through Christ alone) and seek rather to be justified by law (the principle of), which is works. To go that route one is “severed from Christ.” IOW, Christ does them no good.

The thing I like best about moondweller’s doctrine is that the ONLY way one can lose salvation is by doing ANYTHING whatsoever. Any work, any principle of work, or even just to think about works. As long as one does absolutely nothing, one can be assured of salvation. To do anything more than nothing would be to be “severed from Christ.” I guess you could say it is the Xanadu of Religions for slackers! They are to Christianity what war protesters are to the army. Maybe that’s a bit unfair to the war protesters. They actually do something.

 

[Cruxis117]

Read it for yourself:Gal 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."Denial is not just a river in Egypt. Anyone who seeks to be justified by any form of works was not/is not saved:Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."Paul is always consistent with his soteriology: By grace, through faith, gift of God, NOT as a result of works - period.

You are absolutely correct, my friend. Any form of works- Wait, what? Let’s look at what the passages you cited were.

Galatians 5:4. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

Which law is Paul speaking of? Mosaic, of course. Not of “any works”. There was only one law which one could be justified in the way that we understand justification, and that is the Mosaic Law, which Paul refers to. Now, please direct me to where it says “any works”.

Now, of course I agree with Ephesians 2:8-9. Likewise, we were created for Good works. Verse 10. Furthermore, our faith works with and is completed by our deeds (James 2:22). I completely agree with you that those who claim to be justified by any form of works without grace and faith are only kidding themselves. However, faith without works is dead. Useless. Not able to save. We are to have faith working in love (Galatians 5:6). This is rather evident.

 

[moondweller]

You are absolutely correct, my friend. Any form of works- Wait, what? Let’s look at what the passages you cited were.

Galatians 5:4. “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

Which law is Paul speaking of? Mosaic, of course. Not of “any works”.Sorry, but there’s no definite article. It’s “en nomô” (in/by law), not “ton nomon” (the Law). Paul is not directly referring to The Law (of Moses), but the principle of law, which is WORKS.

Now, of course I agree with Ephesians 2:8-9. Likewise, we were created for Good works.

 

[moondweller]

The thing I like best about moondweller’s doctrine is that the ONLY way one can lose salvation is by doing ANYTHING whatsoever.

No, according to the Scriptures one cannot lose salvation, period. That’s what the word “saved” means. The word is rendered meaningless if one could lose it.

Any work, any principle of work, or even just to think about works. As long as one does absolutely nothing, one can be assured of salvation.

No, one can be saved, since salvation is “by grace, through faith, a gift of God, not as a result of works” Assurance of salvation rests on the sacrificial work of Christ and His subsequent bodily resurrection.

By His work the saved are fully redeemed:

agorazo: purchased out of the market place of sin
ekagorazo: purchased out and never to return
lutroo: purchased and set free

Each of the above Greek works are translated “redeem” in English. The Greek says it all. When one believes in Christ His work of redemption, which He finished on the cross by shedding His blood, is applied in full to the believer. IOW, the believer has been fully redeemed: purchased out, never to return and set free, according to the Greek. That’s assurance, my friend.

 

[brb3]

By His work the saved are fully redeemed:

agorazo: purchased out of the market place of sin
ekagorazo: purchased out and never to return
lutroo: purchased and set free

Each of the above Greek works are translated “redeem” in English. The Greek says it all. When one believes in Christ His work of redemption, which He finished on the cross by shedding His blood, is applied in full to the believer. IOW, the believer has been fully redeemed: purchased out, never to return and set free, according to the Greek.

True enuf … ALL our past sins forgiven, as we are made sinless before God, via WORK of Christ’s blood sacrifice on Cross for us.

But, anyone can put themselves back into SLAVERY to satan via sin. You have not become a redeemed ROBOT … who is incapable of turning back to your past. Recall the Parable where Jesus healed/redeemed the man from his error/sins … only to find him going home and taking on 7 other evil demons … and his final state became worse than his former.

So, the Parable of the Prodigal Son [or Daughter] can only make sense when applied to those REDEEMED by God. And, as Ambrose has clearly pointed out to you, … you have no possible way to interpret this Parable from your OSAS errant ‘theory’… since the Redeemed can FALL BACK from God, desiring to once again cast their lot with this world and be Pigs. Recall where Paul teaches that his co-worker Demus … turned back, for ‘love of this world’. [2 Timothy 4:9] Did Demus later repent and recover ? Lets hope !!! So, Paul’s account of the once Redeemed Demas … proves him to represent a Prodigal Son … fallen from grace, in love with the world again. So, your favorite saint in Scripture, St. Paul … proves your interpretation of Prodigal Son Parable is errant.

Here’s the rub Moondweller. What you promote on Salvation is true … up to that FIRST Justification point-in-time. Christ forgives all our past and present, most definately. But, for you to errantly believe ALL your future sins, after that POINT IN TIME are not counted against you is ludicrous !! As long as you REMAIN IN CHRIST, and don’t Fall Away from Christ, continue to confess mortal sins when the God/H.S. convicts you thereof … you / I remain an Adopted Child of the Father, with full Salvation Assurance. But, if we FALL BACK, as most of us do at one time or another, … the Prodigal Parable suddenly makes PERFECT SENSE, fits our circumstance !!! Still known by the Father, still sought after by the Christ who shepherds the flock, but now we have grieved the H.S. … and living in REBELLION, in Enmity to God. We start breaking the 10 Commandments again with impunity and will not confess our error … til God in his wisdom allows us to hit ROCK BOTTOM !! When we crash and burn … some of us will AWAKEN from our UNFORGIVEN status and Repent & Return to the Father … who awaits us with OPEN ARMS !!!

This is the IDENTICAL lession taught in scriptures about the OT Jews. They would fall from Grace over and over … but, if/when they repented, God would forgive their sins and restore them to full fellowship. Take the case of DAVID … clearly God’s chosen, yet he grows overconfident, becomes too proud, commits adultery and murder. Breaks many more than just two of the 10 commandments. Was he forgiven easily w/o repentance and paying penance ? NOT A CHANCE !!! David was the Prodigal Son of his day, but realized his great ‘fall from GRACE’ … and repented, and was RESTORED again to Sonship, and the joy of his Salvation. Scripture teaches “Without repentance … there is no forgiveness of sins”. It also teaches ’ if we regard iniquity in our hearts … the Lord will not hear/answer our prayers’.

Only after complete contrition, repentance … are we restored to our former GLORY and SALVATION status. But, realize that even now we have no FUTURE S.A. … unless we PERSEVERE 'In CHRIST", going forward in time.

Start looking at all of scripture thru this perspective … and 100 % of scripture will CONNECT for you. ALL the unexplainable passages will be internally consistent, and your Soteriology / Christology will no longer be problematic, … but a living, supportable, LOGICAL reality.

 

[Cruxis117]

Sorry, but there’s no definite article. It’s “en nomô” (in/by law), not “ton nomon” (the Law).Paul is not directly referring to The Law (of Moses), but the principle of law, which is WORKS.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

If you’ve noticed, I’ve included Galatians 5:2-6. In the context of what this passage says, we see Paul talking about circumcision, and the Mosaic Law. Not any other law. In this context of the passage, we find that you are highly mistaken, for this refers to the Mosaic Law, as Paul is not random with his words, every passage he writes is written together for a purpose. And clearly, this passage refers to the Mosaic Law and the Mosaic Works.

You’re not agreeing with me (nor Paul):Rom 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,”

Rom 3:28 “For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (again no definite article, not the Law of Moses but the principle of law: WORKS).

This is completely agreed with. However, please read Galatians 5:6, Romans 2:6-8, and James 2:14-26. Your faith, if it has no works, is dead. Useless. Unable to save. For our faith must have love, and it works with and is completed by our deeds of love to one another. If you’ve read Romans 1-3, the entire first 3 chapters are about the Jews who are trying to follow the Mosaic Law! Paul wrote each word with a purpose. And it’s clearly evident that Paul was speaking about those who follow the Mosaic Law.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

No, according to the Scriptures one cannot lose salvation, period. That’s what the word “saved” means. The word is rendered meaningless if one could lose it.

First of all, it is you who have rendered the word Salvation meaningless. You are rendering 90% of the Bible meaningless with this man-made false dogma. What about the Parable of the Prodigal son? Why the need for repentance and forgiveness, even after one is saved by Faith? Why do you ignore Jesus, the Son of the Living God, so that you can follow a few twisted and tortured couple of verses from St. Paul. You set up Paul against the Word made flesh. You are so confused on just one small doctrine, and have no concept of the havoc you wreak on the entire remainder of the Gospel message itself.

Jesus himself has spoken on all of this. Jesus gives us the Parable of the thief in the night, and the need for constant vigilance… Why? There’s no need for born agains to be vigilant. They are assured of Salvation no matter what. Jesus has said we must do works, not for our salvation, but because it is our duty as Christians. If we neglect those duties, we can see the result in the parables of Jesus. The rich man and Lazarus is another parable about a rich man THAT DID NO WORKS. What was his reward? Eternal damnation. What about your back tracking and reneging on your own statements. You have been quoted as saying Salvation CAN BE LOST, just as Paul warned the Galatians. However your argument is that the person never had Faith in the first place if it is ever lost. Now you are embarrassed to admit you said that, and try to pretend you never said it, by saying salvation can not be lost because then the word is meaningless. But to say salvation can be gained is no different. You are gaining salvation by your “work” of accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. You have rendered the word meaningless yourself! You weren’t saved, you simply picked up salvation with more ease than putting on a pair of shoes. What a mockery you make of salvation.

You are nothing but a broken record. You reach an unsatisfactory conclusion of illogical contradictory statements, and then start over again from the beginning.

 

[Pax]

…
…
This is what the Protestant means by “justification by grace alone.” It’s the one-time event wherein God alone did for us what we cannot do for ourselves. And it’s permanent. (e.g., Romans 8:38-39)

…
…
In His Name,
Kevin

Kevin in Christ,

Would it make a difference to you, if scripture makes it clear that Abraham was justified on more than one occasion?

 

[Globachio]

Kevin in Christ,

Would it make a difference to you, if scripture makes it clear that Abraham was justified on more than one occasion?

No.

 

[Pax]

Kevin in Christ,

Then why claim that justification is a one time event especially when scripture indicates otherwise?

 

[Globachio]

Kevin in Christ,

Then why claim that justification is a one time event especially when scripture indicates otherwise?

Scripture doesn’t. It’s a one-time event and doesn’t happen again, and again, and again, and again … All of which puts us in charge, not God.

 

[Pax]

Scripture doesn’t. It’s a one-time event and doesn’t happen again, and again, and again, and again … All of which puts us in charge, not God.

Kevin in Christ,

You are wrong in both of these claims. If I can prove by scripture that Abraham is clearly justified on more than one occasion, will you accept it as true? And be prepared because the scriptural evidence is painfully clear.

 

[Pax]

Kevin in Christ,

Here is the scriptural proof that Abraham was justified on several occasions.

Abraham is justified 3 times. (proof)

Instance #1
In Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.

Instance #2
Hebrews 11:8 makes reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-4, and says,

“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.”

We know this is a reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says,

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval.”

Divine approval is given for a person’s faith only when it is a saving faith.

Instance #3
James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was tested and was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar(Gen 22:1-12) and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says,

“Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness; and he was called the friend of God.”

Also see 1 Mac. 2:52. In addressing this it says:

“Was not Abraham found faithful when tested [Gn 22:1ff], and it was reckoned to him as righteousness?”

We will now examine the instances labeled #2 and #3.

James mentions that Abraham was justified when he offered Isaac upon the altar. The passage reads as follows:

James 2:21-24
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

–The passage clearly shows that Abraham was justified by his works in his obedience to God in offering Isaac upon the altar.

–The passage clearly says that Abraham’s faith had works associated with it and that his faith was completed by works.

–The passage clearly states that this episode fulfills his faith and thus his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

–The passage clearly states that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The man used as an example was Abraham. Abraham was justified by his works in sacrificing Isaac.

Some non-Catholics attempt to make the claim that James 2:21 uses the word “when” to indicate that Abraham was already justified “when” he was going to sacrifice Isaac, and that this “when” is a reference to Abraham’s justification in Genesis 15:6. They try to substantiate this by saying that James would have otherwise used the word “by.” They will also claim that his later statement in verse 23 that “…the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God,” proves that the justification is only found in Genesis 15:6. As already shown above, 1 Mac. 2:52 shows otherwise. This is a case where the doctrine of faith alone and the unbiblical claim that Abraham was justified only once is superimposed on the text in an attempt to make it say something other than what is clearly intended.

Any attempt to make a production out of the word “by” which is not in the text versus the word “when” which is in the text will fail. James asks a rhetorical question saying “Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?”

Even a child reading this text will know that the apostle is telling us that Abraham was justified by works at the point in time “when” he offered his son Isaac upon the altar. The word “by” which is in the text is not necessary to make the Catholic case, and the word “when” does nothing to support the opposing view. In fact, either word is fatal to the doctrine of faith alone and to the view that Abraham was only justified on one occasion. The reasons for this are as follows:

1. The non-catholic claim is that only faith justifies. James says otherwise. Moreover, he begins his rhetorical question by indicating that Abraham was justified “by” works. That is the thrust of his argument throughout Chapter 2 of the epistle. It, therefore, wouldn’t matter if it is a “when” or a “by” in reference to the offering of Isaac. The “when” or the “by” still refers to works which is fatal to the argument.
2. Another reason the contention concerning the word “when” is flawed involves the way some attempt to connect it to Gen 15:6. Please note that James makes a complete thought that Abraham was justified in his work of offering Isaac. It is only after making this complete thought that James goes on to say, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,” Now think about this: Abraham believed God and he was on the verge of sacrificing Isaac. In this, we clearly see the faith and works of Abraham. His faith and trust in God was active along with his works and his faith was completed by his work of willingly offering his son upon the altar.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Once James clearly makes those points he then, and only then, quotes the verse that Paul points out concerning justification. This is deliberate on his part and is designed to clarify misunderstandings that did and could emerge concerning Paul’s teaching. James says, "and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” This verse is chosen by James to indicate that the righteousness that he is talking about is the same righteousness that Paul is talking about. He uses, however, a different instance in Abraham’s life than Paul does and this is crucial. If James was talking about the promise concerning descendents as the only justifying event then he would have used that example as Paul did, but he had an obvious purpose for making the connection using a different instance in Abraham’s life.

1. James is not talking about Abraham already being righteous in the instance of Gen 15:6 by using the word “when.” It is a fatal mistake to assume by way of a doctrine that he must have meant that very thing, when he clearly did not. Point #2 helps to show why, but it is not the only indicator.

The text of James is inspired and the inspired word tramples that assumption by making reference to Rahab. James uses the word “when” in reference to Rahab just as he uses the word “when” in reference to Abraham. The passage on Rahab says:

James 2:25
“And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?”

James uses a rhetorical question in both instances. James says both were justified by works. James uses the word “when” in both Abraham’s and Rahab’s examples. In both cases, the works and the justification are directly tied to the particular events in question. Neither applies to different events in their lives.

Now we can be even more certain of these statements about Rahab because in Hebrews 11:38 Rahab is once again mentioned as one of those that “acted” in faith and received “divine approval.” Once again, it is important to point out that Hebrews 11 begins with the following:

“NOW FAITH is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.”(Heb 11:1-3)

The passage then goes on to mention the faith of all of the many holy patriarchs, prophets, and martyrs of the OT including Abraham and Rahab.

In Hebrews 11:4 it says:
“By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous…”

Abraham and Rahab are in the group listed after the statement about Abel, and also received approval as righteous in the instances cited.

Now let’s take a look at something very important.

In Genesis 15:6 we are told that

“Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.”

The apostle Paul makes reference to this instance in his epistle to the Romans. In this regard he says:

Romans 4:16-25
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants–not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”–in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told, “So shall your descendants be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” But the words, “it was reckoned to him,” were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe in him that raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Here is what we can learn from this:

Paul gives his explanation and narrative about Abraham and then says, "This is why his faith was “reckoned to him as righteousness.” Paul mentions this so that we will examine and understand what the reasons are for this faith to be reckoned as righteousness. The reasons are first of all based on grace, and the promise is “descendents that would be as numerous as the stars and that he would father many nations.” So what are the reasons that Abraham’s faith was reckoned as righteousness?

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

Paul tells us that:

1. “In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations; as he had been told,”
2. “He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old, or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb.”
3. “No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised.”

These three points are significant in several ways. Each one of them contains an element of works on the part of Abraham that satisfied and pleased God. It is through these things in faith that Abraham receives divine approval.

The most telling part of this is in reason #2. We have to recognize that Abraham was, as Paul points out, “as good as dead because he was about a hundred years old.” Moreover, Sarah was by this time barren. This combination would normally mean that there would be no children. Yet God promised Abraham that he would be the father of nations and that his descendents would be as numerous as the stars.

By grace, faith, and the power of God Abraham and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. Thus the promise was fulfilled.

A crucial aspect of this is revealed to us by Paul when he says that Abraham was about a hundred years old and as good as dead and that Sarah was barren. Paul is delicately and courteously making it clear that Abraham was too old to sire children. Likewise, he states that Sarah was barren. In Genesis 18:12 we are told that Sarah laughs upon hearing that she and Abraham will bear children.

The passage says:

"So Sarah laughed to herself, saying, “After I have grown old, and my husband is old, shall I have pleasure?”

This again is a delicately stated phrase describing the lack of a sex life of this couple at that stage of their lives. Nevertheless, these two people believed God. Moreover, they engaged in marital relations and God blessed them with Isaac and God fulfilled the promise.

The promise would not have been fulfilled had Abraham not had relations with Sarah. Abraham and Sarah were pretty much incapable of marital relations and most certainly child bearing at that stage in their lives, but they believed God and engaged in marital relations. The ability and power to do so were granted to them by way of God’s grace. By grace and faith they begat Isaac.

Without that work or activity on their part the promise would not have been fulfilled by God. If the promise was not fulfilled because of this work/action Abraham would not have been the father of many nations. Abraham would not have been justified because he would not have per scripture completed his faith by that action. Abraham’s faith would not have been reckoned to him as righteousness.

The same kind of thing is evident in reading Hebrews chapter 11. Each of the holy figures cited had faith and their faith was associated with something they did. Even Henry’s Concise Commentary, a non-Catholic source, recognizes that Hebrews Chapter 11 is talking about the justifying faith of the patriarchs, prophets, and martyrs of the Old Testament. Henry’s Commentary says:

“Text: - Ver. 1-3 Faith always has been the mark of God’s servants, from the beginning of the world. Where the principle is planted by the regenerating Spirit of God, it will cause the truth to be received, concerning justification by the sufferings and merits of Christ. And the same things that are the object of our hope, are the object of our faith. It is a firm persuasion and expectation, that God will perform all he has promised to us in Christ.”

Hebrews Chapter 11 tells us that:

Verse 4: By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous,

Verse 5: By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.

Verse 6: And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Verse 7: By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.

Verses 8-10: By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Verses 11-12: By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised. Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.

Verse 13.: These all died in faith.

In verse 31, Rahab is also mentioned and we know from James that she was “justified” in that example.

cont. on next post

 

[Pax]

cont. from prior post

This is righteousness and justification and every example includes faith and the works that completed it. This is made very explicit in Hebrews when the author talks about Abel as his initial example. It is also eminently clear that the faith of these individuals would be meaningless if they defied God and failed to live out their faith in the actions described above. None of them would have received divine approval. All of those mentioned are examples of OT justified saints.

We will now look once again at Sarah. Let’s start with Genesis where Abraham’s faith is reckoned to him as righteousness. This faith pertains to the promise of off spring. At that point in time Abraham was still called Abram and his wife was still called Sarai. God then makes his covenant with Abraham.

In Gen 17:4-8 it says:

“Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. And I will give to you, and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

In Gen 17:15-16 it says this:

"And God said to Abraham, “As for Sarai your wife, you shall not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. I will bless her, and moreover I will give you a son by her; I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of peoples shall come from her.”

Scripture always speaks through the idea of fatherhood and Abraham is no exception. Even though Sarah is not mentioned as having her faith reckoned as righteousness we can easily see that this is the case. She receives the same blessings and a name change just as Abraham did. This demonstrates God’s favor and approval along with the covenant relationship established with Sarah in the same fashion as it is established with Abraham. Sarah, like Abraham believed God and believed his promise concerning offspring.

Hebrews 11:11 specifically mentions this about Sarah by stating:

“By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.”

This is exactly the same thing that Abraham did and the connection is unmistakable when Paul says in Romans 4:3-13 that:

“For what does the scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.’ … We say that faith was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness…How then was it reckoned to him?..The promise to Abraham and his descendants, that they should inherit the world, did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.”

Clearly, both Abraham and Sarah were justified by faith and their belief that God would keep his promises concerning them parenting many off spring and many nations, and that kings would come from them. The justification of Sarah in Genesis 15:6 is very obvious. Likewise, this incident is referred to in Hebrews 11:11. Every instance of a patriarch, prophet, and martyr in Hebrews 11 concerns faith and justification. This includes the reference to Abraham’s faith and justification as it pertains to his receiving divine approval for leaving his home land to sojourn to a foreign country by trusting God. This is a reference to instance #2 of Abraham’s justification.

There is one more reference to Abraham’s justification in the NT that does not refer to Genesis 15:6. In Galatians 3:5-9, Paul says the following:

Gal 3:5-9

Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? Thus Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith.

This quote is a reference to Abraham’s justification in Genesis 12:1-4 which says:

Gen 12:1-4
Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you, and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who curses you I will curse; and by you all the families of the earth shall bless themselves.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.

Galatians 3:5-9 makes it clear that the belief that Abraham had in this instance came by way of the Spirit and grace, and that as a result “it was reckoned to him as righteousness” just as his faith was reckoned to him as righteousness in Genesis 15:6. Like James, Paul quite naturally uses the phrase “reckoned to him as righteousness” in referring to an instance of Abraham’s justification other than the instance cited by Paul in Genesis 15:16 where the phrase is found. Moreover, Paul may very well be the author of the Book of Hebrews in which he speaks of Abraham being justified in Genesis 12:1-4.

Abraham was clearly justified on three separate occasions. Moreover, nowhere in scripture does it ever say that someone is justified only once. Such a claim cannot be supported by scripture either implicitly or explicitly, and there is no logical reason to believe that such a thing would be true.

 

[moondweller]

Kevin in Christ,

Here is the scriptural proof that Abraham was justified on several occasions.

Abraham is justified 3 times. (proof)

Instance #1
In Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed God concerning his descendants being as numerous as the stars, and his belief was reckoned to him as righteousness.

This is the ONLY time God justifies Abraham. He (the Lord) reckons it (his faith) TO him as righteousness.

Instance #2
Hebrews 11:8 makes reference to Abraham in Genesis 12:1-4, and says, We know this is a reference to saving faith because in Hebrews 11:1-2 it says, Divine approval is given for a person’s faith only when it is a saving faith.

God does not justify Abraham in Hebrews. ONLY in Gen. 15:6 does it say that He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith) TO him as righteousness.

Instance #3
James 2:21-23 makes reference to Abraham having faith when he was tested and was to sacrifice his son Isaac upon the altar(Gen 22:1-12) and James says that the scripture was fulfilled which says,

James quotes Gen. 15:6 in Ja. 2:23 because it’s the ONLY place where it says the Lord reckoned it (his faith) TO him as righteousness. Nowhere in Gen. 22 is it recorded that the Lord reckoned Abraham righteous.

Paul also quotes Gen. 15:6 in Rom. 4:3 because it’s the ONLY place where it’s recorded that He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith) to Abraham as righteousness.

Abraham was justified only ONCE in Scripture. And it’s recorded ONLY in Gen. 15:6… Men need only be justified ONCE by God and they’re justified forever. And that by/through FAITH aloneRom 3:30 “…since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.”

 

[Globachio]

Kevin in Christ,

You are wrong in both of these claims. If I can prove by scripture that Abraham is clearly justified on more than one occasion, will you accept it as true? And be prepared because the scriptural evidence is painfully clear.

Nope. Only happened once. Moondweller’s right. (Macc. is not Scripture according to us Prots.) Hebrews & James and the rest speak of the same event as Genesis. Sorry you did all that work for nothing.