Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[brb3]

but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God

."[/indent]IOW, believers are made “holy ones” (saints) through Christ, washed by His blood, sanctified in Him, justified in His name through faith in Him. Such are the heaven-bound SAVED. Yup, they’re actually “saved.”

Saved in the PRESENT TENSE ? Yes, if one is Confessed/Repented of all Mortal Sins, a Disciple of the Lord, and CURRENTLY standing IN CHRIST.

But, just as the Prodigal Son … tomorrow, or the next, you / i might up and go for a trip / vacation FROM the Father … and back into the world like DEMAS ]. Christ in his wisdom will allow us a short period of time to repent of Mortal Sins and return again to our First Love. But, if we don’t, we grieve the H.S. … and become satan’s tool. Nevertheless, Christ continues to seek all LOST, wayward SHEEP. Some will harken his calling and REPENT, and be RESTORED to FULL GLORY in the FATHER … and inherit the Kingdom God has prepared for ALL.

So, if we be found IN CHRIST, In his CHURCH [Flock] on our last day … we will know Final Salvation. Do you know your tomorrows Moondweller ? You cannot my brother.
Even the 11, had no idea that Judas would forsake Christ on his last day. Three times I’ve left Christ for this world … and I could not of predicted I would, before the fact.

Now, if you believe chronic, unconfessed Mortal Sin committed tomorrow, & for a season, was forgiven way back at the time of your Initial Justification … that is 1st Century Nicolaitan folly. Christ’s message to the Ephesians [and us] in Rev. Chp. 2 ---- makes this crystal clear. We all can FALL FROM GRACE, Fall from Christ … and UNLESS we Repent, our lampstand branch in the Olive Tree of Live ] will be pruned out.

You were not Converted many moons ago … to consider yourself untouchable from snares of satan. None of us are God’s FROZEN CHOSEN - Untouchables, who cannot be tempted by satan, or tested. Read the book of Job again, and read John and Paul’s preaching on essential need for PERSEVERANCE and completing the RACE in this life. So, Catholics teach we only know for certain our Past & Present SALVATION … and our hope and intentions are for our Final SALVATION.

Now, you will counter …“What good is a salvation that is not certain ?” Actually, this is where the Catholic Church excels. Those who remain faithful to the Church and its teachings … receive daily, weekly Grace from Christ that is the Eternal Food for our Journey. We receive God’s Manna on Daily Basis … and thus the daily Grace of Christ is sufficient for our Journey. More Catholics will make it to the finish line, than those outside the Church Universal. Those IN CHRIST, who PRAY Daily for Perseverance … have 100 % Salvation Assurance, since God answers all prayers of the Contrite heart … that are according to HIS WILL. Our Salvations are Certain, if we do not turn back from Discipleship, our First Love and sealing IN CHRIST.

 

[brb3]

Show me where “final salvation” is mentioned in the Scriptures.

Christ is of no value to such men.

Unless one is OSAS the word “saved” is utterly meaningless. That’s why you add your own extrabiblical word “final” to it. You must, since you can’t stop working for it until your dying day. And then you only “hope so.”

The Teaching of final salvation is everywhere in Scripture. Both Old and New Testaments. And it is exactly due to Grace of Christ … that Christ is of ESSENTIAL ‘VALUE’ to us.

We just showed you in Rev. 2 … where OSAS concept is rejected by Christ, and the Nicolaitan ‘ideas’ rejected.

Face the facts, what the Catholic Church teaches is dead on BIBLICAL / 100 % correct. What you propose is very comforting to those who reject need for Perseverance, nevertheless Holiness and ‘gracious’ works are expected of the Christian … per words of Christ to the Churches.

Moon … are we gonna believe you and your theorys, or the WORDS of CHRIST [and John, Peter, and Paul] ? I’ve been in your camp in past … but, its not reality my brother. OSAS got me no where able to Persevere and finish the race. Rather, much big trouble —the failure to see need to confess my errant sinful ways & ‘falls from grace’. But, why should I confess … God had forgiven me of all my future Adultery, Fornication, Materialism, Cursing, Party Spirit … way back on DAY 1 of my Conversion … Right ?

If God forgave my early sins through Christ … why worry about my current failings ? Why pursue holiness ? Why worry about the Law … that’s OT / ‘oldschool’ Jewish thinking ! Just need to learn a few select, out of context passages, taken from Paul’s epistles … and that confirms I’m God’s GOLDEN CHOSEN. God understands I can never be perfect, so why sweat my tendency to sin. THAT’S WHY CHRIST DIED … he has ALREADY covered my future sins too. No need to confess them and reform my life … I confessed on Day 1 … right ?

WRONGO !!! OSAS teaching is satan’s trap for Protestant Fundamentalists. Unless one becomes Christ’s disciple and perseveres … satan will have you back in his camp in several years, often sooner.

 

[Philthy]

You present a false dichotomy.This is an admonition to “holy ones.” “Holy ones” are heaven bound. In fact, their citizenship is heaven (Phil. 3:20-21).

Being Heaven “bound” and actually inheriting the kingdom of Heaven are different. There is no false dichotomy. Entering into a relationship with God through his Son (ie being born again) is different than dying and going to Heaven( inheriting the Kingdom of God). They are all part of the bigger picture of “salvation”, but they are not the same in all respects.

Paul writes to the Corinthians:1 Cor 6:9-11 “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

• "Such were* some of you; BUT you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."IOW, believers are made “holy ones” (saints) through Christ, washed by His blood, sanctified in Him, justified in His name through faith in Him. Such are the heaven-bound SAVED. Yup, they’re actually “saved.”

I see that you did a lot of bolding and underlining and then magically arrived at your original conclusion (Such are heaven-bound) without a single word of support. I’m unimpressed with such displays! Allow me to do the hard work for you - again, brother. I’ll take your bolded comments and state your unstated premise that you appear to be claiming and I will then invalidate it.
*“Such were some of you” *This is your big hat rack. Everything else in this section screams out that Paul is accusing them of being the very things that he mentions, and that by doing these things jeopardizes their inheritance in the KOG. As proof of this I offer the context that introduces this section of the letter:
How can any one of you with a case against another dare to bring it to the unjust for judgment instead of to the holy ones?..But rather brother goes to court against brother, and that before unbelievers?..it is, in any case, a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated? Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. **Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? **Do not be deceived;…
Ok so there is the context: SOME of the Corinthians were engaged in “injustice” and Paul tells them very plainly that the unjust (ie those who “inflict injustice”) will not inherit the KOG…This simple, obvious, contextual fact is so clear. They are engaging in injustice and Paul warns them that the unjust wont go to Heaven. You cant really argue against this as its too clear. You also cannot argue the fact that, according to your theology, Paul shouldnt be delivering this message at all - he should be condemning “unbelievers” rather than sinners, for we are all sinners separated by one thing in your theology - belief vs unbelief. So there are a number of problems with this section for you and you were not uninformed of these facts in choosing to avoid discussing them.
*“Such were some of you” *
You intend to claim that this statement means that none of the Corinthians ARE any longer “unrighteous” (at the time of the writing of the letter) by virtue of the fact that they were “washed, sanctified, justified”, etc. Lets just dispassionately explore this claim.
The first direct refutation of your understanding is the simple fact that Paul does not say that they are not these things - he simply reminds them that some of them used to be in these various sins and that they were washed and cleansed, sanctified, justified when they came to faith and were baptized. He does not say that SOME of them are no longer these things - in fact he says exactly the opposite in the section I provided: some of them were inflicting injustice and cheating - and he follows that up with his exasperation: Dont you realize the unjust and cheaters wont go to Heaven?
Furthermore, MD, there is a more subtle theological nuance that you are overlooking in the “Such were some of you”. Prior to being born again, is there a single person who is “washed, justified, sanctified”? No, prior to being born again ALL of them were the UNJUST, not SOME of them. For “ALL have sinned” - right, MD? Paul cant possibly be referring to their pre-salvific state in the manner you assume because if he were he would have said, “Such were ALL of you”. He’s talking, as the context I provided shows, about those brothers who were bringing other brothers to court before unbelievers and acting unjustly and greedily rather than following the Christ-like example of trusting in God to provide justice and allowing themselves to be treated with injustice.
In summary:

• “Such were some of you” does not mean that none of them are those things Paul mentions as jeopardizing their inheritance in the KOG.
• The context of the letter is clear: those who do such things - saved or not - do not inherit the KOG
• Being saved as a past event does not guarantee the future event of going to Heaven, for we, through our actions, can “fall from grace”…see my sig

Blessings!

 

[AmbroseSJ]

brb3:

WRONGO !!! OSAS teaching is satan’s trap for Protestant Fundamentalists. Unless one becomes Christ’s disciple and perseveres … satan will have you back in his camp in several years, often sooner.

Amen brother! If Satan could choose his favorite religion, it would be that religion that says there’s never a need to repent, never a need to DO what the Gospel commands, never a need to worry about the last judgment. A religion that says just say these magic words “I accept Jesus as my personal Lord and savior.” and keep believing that you don’t have Faith if you ever do any good works or ever repent again.

And Satan was such an expert on the Bible too! He loved to quote from the Bible. He was so good at taking a simple passage and twisting it in such a way that by doing what the Bible said, would be iniquitous.
[bibledrb]Matt 4:5-7[/bibledrb]

Notice Jesus didn’t find fault with the meaning Satan applied to his quote from Scripture, but rather that there was still more Scripture that put the first quote into perspective.

 

[moondweller]

Being Heaven “bound” and actually inheriting the kingdom of Heaven are different. There is no false dichotomy.Totally false. Else salvation/saved is meaningless.

Entering into a relationship with God through his Son (ie being born again) is different than dying and going to Heaven( inheriting the Kingdom of God).

 

[moondweller]

WRONGO !!! OSAS teaching is satan’s trap for Protestant Fundamentalists. Unless one becomes Christ’s disciple and perseveres … satan will have you back in his camp in several years, often sooner.

The doctrine of salvation is based on Divine revelation. Not the experience or weaknesses of one BRB.

 

[Pax]

…
,
.It’s not those who “do” such “things.” But those who ARE those things. It’s a list of nouns: fornicators, idolaters, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If it is not those that do such things then why does Romans 1:29-32 say this:

They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

And how about Romans 2:2

We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things.

See also Romans 2:3, and Gal 5:21. In all of these Paul says “those that do such things” as opposed to your phrasing of “those who ARE those things.”

I really think that you are simply arguing words here. Clearly, the scriptures agree with Philthy on the terminology and meaning. Moreover, it is also logically consistent to say that anyone that commits fornication is a fornicator. You cannot separate the person’s activity from the person. A fornicator does in fact fornicate. Those that engage in fornication are fornicators. I hope you see and recognize the actual language of the scriptures and the logical conclusions to be drawn from that language.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philthy
Being Heaven “bound” and actually inheriting the kingdom of Heaven are different. There is no false dichotomy.

One enters a personal relationship with God through faith in Christ. Through personal faith that one is “born again.” No longer in Adam, but now in Christ (the “Last Adam”), redeemed (purchased by blood), sanctified, washed (purified) in the name of Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of his God (1 Cor. 6:11). It’s a complete package. It’s called "salvation, or “saved,” and that by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works. Moondweller, I have told you several times in this thread alone the Catholic understanding of this:
You are saved by grace through faith when you are baptized (that’s what the washed part means). This is done purely as a gift for those that ask. There are no works required to gain this grace. But once you have this grace, you must cooperate with it to enter heaven, and this means to do the works of love/charity for which we have been made. (Ephesians 2:10 !) . So why don’t you address this view, rather than just stating Ephesians 2: 8-9 over and over. And please, don’t do it by splicing together unrelated biblical phrases like you did above. Those kind of responses are totally meaningless as we have discussed before… As we both know, there are plenty of scriptural passages that support the view that you must love to enter heaven. (Matthew 19: 16-19, Matthew 25: 31-46, Romans 2: 5-10, 1Corinthians 13, etc). You can’d refute these by saying Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t discuss it. That’s basically arguing from silence since that passage was talking about being saved, not going to heaven. And they are not the same as discussed above.

Quote:
The context of the letter is clear: those who do such things - saved or not - do not inherit the KOG

It’s not those who “do” such “things.” But those who ARE those things. It’s a list of nouns: fornicators, idolaters, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers, shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But ALL the SAINTS will (1 Cor. 1:2). Why? Because they’ve been washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I’m one of them!!!
Moondweller, if you fornicate, you are a fornicator, if you steal, you are a thief. If you get drunk, you are a drunkard, etc. You can’t escape this. And yes, you can be forgiven these sins sacramentally, but unless you die in the state of grace, you will not go to heaven. And you won’t know for sure that you won’t fall into unrepentent sin until you die.

Philthy, if you haven’t been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God, then it is possible that you’re one of those listed who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But that also applies to the sweet little old lady down the block, or that devout religious man who’s tying to work his way into it.

Moondweller, What we know from scripture is that to enter into eternal life you need to:

• Be Baptized (John 6, Acts2, 2Peter3, etc)
• Eat Jesus Body and Drink his blood (John 6)
• Follow the Commandments: (matthew 19: 16-19)
• Do works of Mercy (Matthew 25: 31-46)
• Do the will of God (Matthew 7: 21-23)
• Love (John 13: 31-35, 1Corinthians 13, etc)

Doing this is what is meant by being washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by brb3
WRONGO !!! OSAS teaching is satan’s trap for Protestant Fundamentalists. Unless one becomes Christ’s disciple and perseveres … satan will have you back in his camp in several years, often sooner

This is true. But scripture is very clear in noting that you must persevere in good works to go to heaven. Here’ one example from Romans 2:

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
Can you refute this?

 

[brb3]

The doctrine of salvation is based on Divine revelation. Not the experience

Yes, Moondweller … but, Moses ’ experienced ’ the burning bush and saw the Lord. Abraham was provided a Lamb at the opportune moment. Noah ‘experience’ the Lord closing the door of Ark. The Israelites ‘experienced’ the manna in the wilderness. The Baptist experienced the sight of the Dove decending upon Christ after he washed Christ in the Jordan. Thomas put his hand in Christ’s scar, Paul was struck blind and was spoken to by God, and the Chruch at Pentecost experienced the tongues and fire of H.S.

Don’t make light of our ‘experiences’ with God. Don’t you see that if you first have FAITH in God … he will allow you to ‘experience’ his grace upon Conversion & other sacred occasions, and sometimes even unexpectedly thereafter ?

Experience is core to our humanity … it fortifies our faith and helps us Persevere. Christ didn’t just reveal himself in visions to the first 12 … he lived among them for 3 years. They had a ‘wealth’ of experiences to fortify their faith and Perseverance.

And, it didn’t stop with 1st Century Christians. Christ promised that those they brought into the faith/Church … would have a personal ‘experience’ with the 3rd Person of Godhead, as their steadfast Counsel and Guide. The H.S. seals us / and bonds us to Christ in agape love "personal relationship’.

We all have Guardian Angels, per Chruch teaching. And they too can be experienced … both in spiritual and thru physical ‘signs’. There is even today manifestations of ‘tongues’, and casting out of demons … which are clearly experienced by those involved.

So Personal Revelation is also ‘part and parcel’ of our understanding of the Trinity, and it plays a role in buttressing our faith. Remember, God gives us Nature … as another chief way we can ‘experience’ the Creator’s love for mankind.

So, our faith is not soley ‘theoretical’. Would Paul of come to faith apart from God’s work upon him ? Would the 12 Apostles have come to Christ apart from his personal calling of them to join him in discipleship ? Same goes for all the Prophets of old … and same goes for us today. If we could not ‘experience’ God’s love on frequent basis, we would never of come to a saving faith and now call Christ our Lord.

 

[brb3]

Through personal faith that one is “born again.”

It’s a complete package. It’s called "salvation, or “saved,”

MoonDweller, elaborate on the ‘complete package’. What are the key essentials needed for salvation, as you define/understand it ?

 

[Pax]

Very well stated, and it is a reminder to me that we should always be seeking and thanking God even in the quietest of spiritual experiences.

God bless brb3.

 

[brb3]

Very well stated, and it is a reminder to me that we should always be seeking and thanking God even in the quietest of spiritual experiences.

God bless brb3.

Also, John speaks to the matter of our Experience of God.

John 15:10-11 If you KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS, YOU WILL ABIDE IN MY LOVE, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. These things I have spoken to you, THAT MY JOY MAY BE IN YOU, AND THAT YOUR JOY MAY BE FULL."

We all know from our ‘human experience’ … that LOVE is SUPREME emotion & life experience for man-womankind. Man & woman can ‘experience’ God in the union of sexuality … especially newly-wed marital embraces. But, Apage Love far exceeds human sexual love.

So, when we experience God’s Agape Love … we know we have been touched / graced by the Creator ! We can experience Agape Love on regular basis via prayer, charity, meditations, & praise of our Lord in word/song. Our great Catholic Saints have spoken & written extensively on this matter. St. Teresa of Avila, Catherine of Sienna, John of the Cross, etc. … even JP2 .

Thru the Beatitudes, Christ has called us to ‘experience’ agape love … which enables the chief of God’s Commandments to be kept. So, for Protestants to fault Catholics for desiring to please God via keeping of the Law of Love ] … is so misguided, and totally ignores John’s testimony in Chp. 15, regarding command of Christ to his Adoption.

 

[Philthy]

Totally false. Else salvation/saved is meaningless.One enters a personal relationship with God through faith in Christ. Through personal faith that one is “born again.” No longer in Adam, but now in Christ (the “Last Adam”), redeemed (purchased by blood), sanctified, washed (purified) in the name of Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of his God (1 Cor. 6:11). It’s a complete package. It’s called "salvation, or “saved,” and that by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works.It’s not those who “do” such “things.” But those who ARE those things. It’s a list of nouns: fornicators, idolaters, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers, shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But ALL the SAINTS will (1 Cor. 1:2). Why? Because they’ve been washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I’m one of them!!!

Philthy, if you haven’t been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God, then it is possible that you’re one of those listed who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But that also applies to the sweet little old lady down the block, or that devout religious man who’s tying to work his way into it.

 

[Philthy]

Totally false. Else salvation/saved is meaningless.

I dont find it totally false that entering into a relationship with God that sometimes doesnt end in going to Heaven meaningless at all. Perhaps you could explain yourself rather than simply disagreeing. Then again, history has shown that you can’t actually defend such statements - you just hold them as unassailable and expect us to do the same.

One enters a personal relationship with God through faith in Christ. Through personal faith that one is “born again.” No longer in Adam, but now in Christ (the “Last Adam”), redeemed (purchased by blood), sanctified, washed (purified) in the name of Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of his God (1 Cor. 6:11). It’s a complete package.It’s called "salvation, or “saved,” and that by grace through faith…a gift of God, not as a result of works.

OK, MD, this is you simply RESTATING your position without actually arguing it. The fact that one IS no longer in Adam does not mean that they won’t return to that state. If you believe that - and you obviously do - then it’s time to defend it, not merely restate it.

It’s not those who “do” such “things.” But those who ARE those things. It’s a list of nouns: fornicators, idolaters, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, the covetous, drunkards, revilers, swindlers, shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Is this really your position?? That the fact that it is list of “nouns” somehow obviates the otherwise clear fact that it applies to those Corinthians who were engaged in those acts? That is, not even remotely coherent. The noun status applies to ALL who engage in those activities, and that applies directly and contextually and logically to those Corinthians who were causing “injustice”…their ACTS of injustice renders them the status of being “unjust” (noun, verb or otherwise).

But ALL the SAINTS will (1 Cor. 1:2). Why? Because they’ve been washed, sanctified, and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. I’m one of them!!!

Once again you restate your position without actually defending it: those who are saints remain forever saints because they’ve been washed, sanctified and justified. And then, perhaps sensing the weakness of your argument, you throw in an apparent appeal to the emotions (Im one of them!!!). Well, I for one, remain unimpressed by your inability to address the issues at hand:
Some Corinthians were engaging in injustice and Paul points out that those who engage in injustice (ie, the unjust) won’t inherit the KOG.
In your attempt to quickly explain away the obvious (our post-adoption behavior has salvific consequences), do you realize that you render Paul’s message to complete non-sense? After all, what you apparently feel Paul felt the need to tell the Corinthians is that the unsaved don’t go to Heaven. That is just absurd! Why, exactly, would he bring that up in a discussion of what THEY(the Corinthians) were doing wrong, if it didnt apply to them? It makes no sense. And think about this: How can they truly have “saving faith” if they don’t know that true faith in who Christ is and what his Cross accomplishes for sinners? They can’t, of course! But that is what you are willing - apparently - to make of Paul’s comments in order to preserve your OSAS theology: that the Corinthians werent aware of the fact that the unsaved don’t go to Heaven.

Philthy, if you haven’t been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God, then it is possible that you’re one of those listed who will not inherit the kingdom of God. But that also applies to the sweet little old lady down the block, or that devout religious man who’s tying to work his way into it.

This is some really deep stuff, MD - Im sure you would love to simply get away from the topic at hand in order to discuss such profound issues. As it stands, however, you have failed in your attempt to support your position and haven’t even begun to address mine, let alone construct an argument against it. The facts remain:

• Paul warns saved believers that their behavior could cost them their inheritance in the KOG.
• The fact that he does so indicates that being 'saved" and actually going to Heaven are not irrevocably linked.
• That renders your notion of “once saved always saved” to be a falsehood.
• That reveals your understanding of grace, sin and it’s consequences in the context of the fullness of salvation to be deficient

I am grateful that your response - IMHO- is exactly what it is: a non-response and restatement in defense of your personal theology. Those who are following along - and genuinely seeking the truth - can see with particular clarity how something very clear and very straight forward can be distorted by an allegiance to theology and how that can happen to someone intelligent and well-versed in Scripture such as yourself.
But will you ever benefit from these discussions? I can only pray that that is God’s will…and I trust His wisdom in this regard.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

Show me where “final salvation” is mentioned in the Scriptures. If there’s a “final” salvation then it’s the only salvation. IOW, “saved” in this present life is rendered meaningless.

Your inability to understand why God would order salvation in this way is a far cry from your “conclusion” that it is, therefore, “meaningless”.
Here God accomplishes his will through humanity - not because He needs to, but because he chooses to allow us to participate. He knows it will make us holier. He does it out of love for us…And do you know how he subtly revealed this to us??? HE BECAME ONE OF US TO ACCOMPLISH SALVATION, and He sent his Holy Spirit to be with us in our journey…think about it.

Blessings

 

[brb3]

Once again you restate your position without actually defending it: those who are saints remain forever saints because they’ve been washed, sanctified and justified.

Moondweller …

You went to Bible College. You have at minimum a Master’s Degree in Theology. Perhaps even a Doctorate. How can you read Rev. Chp. 2 … and not see Christ [and John] have discredited your OSAS dogma ?

Scripture interprets scripture for you … so, exegete Rev. Chp. 2 for us, to suppport Protestant OSAS Soterology. Clearly you have misinterpreted those several ‘select’ Pauline passages you quote from to support OSAS, ---- a viewpoint that had its inception from the 1st Century, conceived by the Nicolaitans, and rejected by Christ in his message to the Ephesians.

If you cannot do so, or do not wish to … then, don’t ever bring up the OSAS heresy again in other threads.

 

[david_friol_1]

Pope Benedict XVI on these topics in Paul

Saint Paul (13):

The Doctrine of Justification: from Works to Faith.

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

On the journey we are making under St Paul’s guidance, let us now reflect on a topic at the centre of the controversies of the century of the Reformation: the question of justification. How does man become just in God’s eyes? When Paul met the Risen One on the road to Damascus he was an accomplished man; irreproachable according to the justice deriving from the Law (cf. Phil 3: 6), Paul surpassed many of his contemporaries in the observance of the Mosaic Law and zealously upheld the traditions of his fathers (cf. Gal 1: 14). The illumination of Damascus radically changed his life; he began to consider all merits acquired in an impeccable religious career as “refuse”, in comparison with the sublimity of knowing Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 8). The Letter to the Philippians offers us a moving testimony of Paul’s transition from a justice founded on the Law and acquired by his observance of the required actions, to a justice based on faith in Christ. He had understood that what until then had seemed to him to be a gain, before God was, in fact, a loss; and thus he had decided to stake his whole existence on Jesus Christ (cf. Phil 3: 7). The treasure hidden in the field and the precious pearl for whose purchase all was to be invested were no longer in function of the Law, but Jesus Christ, his Lord.

The relationship between Paul and the Risen One became so deep as to induce him to maintain that Christ was no longer solely his life but also his very living, to the point that to be able to reach him death became a gain (cf. Phil 1: 21). This is not to say he despised life, but that he realized that for him at this point there was no other purpose in life and thus he had no other desire than to reach Christ as in an athletics competition to remain with him for ever. The Risen Christ had become the beginning and the end of his existence, the cause and the goal of his race. It was only his concern for the development in faith of those he had evangelized and his anxiety for all of the Churches he founded (cf. 2 Cor 11: 28) that induced him to slow down in his race towards his one Lord, to wait for his disciples so they might run with him towards the goal. Although from a perspective of moral integrity he had nothing to reproach himself in his former observance of the Law, once Christ had reached him he preferred not to make judgments on himself (cf. 1 Cor 4: 3-4). Instead he limited himself to resolving to press on, to make his own the One who had made him his own (cf. Phil 3: 12).

It is precisely because of this personal experience of relationship with Jesus Christ that Paul henceforth places at the centre of his Gospel an irreducible opposition between the two alternative paths to justice: one built on the works of the Law, the other founded on the grace of faith in Christ. The alternative between justice by means of works of the Law and that by faith in Christ thus became one of the dominant themes that run through his Letters: “We ourselves, who are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law; because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2: 15-16). And to the Christians of Rome he reasserts that “all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rm 3: 23-24). And he adds “we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law” (ibid., v. 28). At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the Catechesis. First, we must explain what is this “Law” from which we are freed and what are those “works of the Law” that do not justify. The opinion that was to recur systematically in history already existed in the community at Corinth. This opinion consisted in thinking that it was a question of moral law and that the Christian freedom thus consisted in the liberation from ethics. Thus in Corinth the term “πάντα μοι έξεστιν” (I can do what I like) was widespread. It is obvious that this interpretation is wrong: Christian freedom is not libertinism; the liberation of which St Paul spoke is not liberation from good works.

So what does the Law from which we are liberated and which does not save mean? For St Paul, as for all his contemporaries, the word “Law” meant the Torah in its totality, that is, the five books of Moses. The Torah, in the Pharisaic interpretation, that which Paul had studied and made his own, was a complex set of conduct codes that ranged from the ethical nucleus to observances of rites and worship and that essentially determined the identity of the just person. In particular, these included circumcision, observances concerning pure food and ritual purity in general, the rules regarding the observance of the Sabbath, etc. codes of conduct that also appear frequently in the debates between Jesus and his contemporaries. All of these observances that express a social, cultural and religious identity had become uniquely important in the time of Hellenistic culture, starting from the third century B.C. This culture which had become the universal culture of that time and was a seemingly rational culture; a polytheistic culture, seemingly tolerant constituted a strong pressure for cultural uniformity and thus threatened the identity of Israel, which was politically constrained to enter into this common identity of the Hellenistic culture. This resulted in the loss of its own identity, hence also the loss of the precious heritage of the faith of the Fathers, of the faith in the one God and in the promises of God.

 

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Against this cultural pressure, which not only threatened the Israelite identity but also the faith in the one God and in his promises, it was necessary to create a wall of distinction, a shield of defence to protect the precious heritage of the faith; this wall consisted precisely in the Judaic observances and prescriptions. Paul, who had learned these observances in their role of defending God’s gift, of the inheritance of faith in one God alone, saw this identity threatened by the freedom of the Christians this is why he persecuted them. At the moment of his encounter with the Risen One he understood that with Christ’s Resurrection the situation had changed radically. With Christ, the God of Israel, the one true God, became the God of all peoples. The wall as he says in his Letter to the Ephesians between Israel and the Gentiles, was no longer necessary: it is Christ who protects us from polytheism and all of its deviations; it is Christ who unites us with and in the one God; it is Christ who guarantees our true identity within the diversity of cultures. The wall is no longer necessary; our common identity within the diversity of cultures is Christ, and it is he who makes us just. Being just simply means being with Christ and in Christ. And this suffices. Further observances are no longer necessary. For this reason Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love. Faith is looking at Christ, entrusting oneself to Christ, being united to Christ, conformed to Christ, to his life. And the form, the life of Christ, is love; hence to believe is to conform to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).

Paul knows that in the twofold love of God and neighbour the whole of the Law is present and carried out. Thus in communion with Christ, in a faith that creates charity, the entire Law is fulfilled. We become just by entering into communion with Christ who is Love. We shall see the same thing in the Gospel next Sunday, the Solemnity of Christ the King. It is the Gospel of the judge whose sole criterion is love. What he asks is only this: Did you visit me when I was sick? When I was in prison? Did you give me food to eat when I was hungry, did you clothe me when I was naked? And thus justice is decided in charity. Thus, at the end of this Gospel we can almost say: love alone, charity alone. But there is no contradiction between this Gospel and St Paul. It is the same vision, according to which communion with Christ, faith in Christ, creates charity. And charity is the fulfilment of communion with Christ. Thus, we are just by being united with him and in no other way.

At the end, we can only pray the Lord that he help us to believe; really believe. Believing thus becomes life, unity with Christ, the transformation of our life. And thus, transformed by his love, by the love of God and neighbour, we can truly be just in God’s eyes.

 

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Saint Paul (14):

The Doctrine of Justification: The Apostle’s Teaching on Faith and Works

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In the Catechesis last Wednesday I spoke of how man is justified before God. Following St Paul, we have seen that man is unable to “justify” himself with his own actions, but can only truly become “just” before God because God confers his “justice” upon him, uniting him to Christ his Son. And man obtains this union through faith. In this sense, St Paul tells us: not our deeds, but rather faith renders us “just”. This faith, however, is not a thought, an opinion, an idea. This faith is communion with Christ, which the Lord gives to us, and thus becomes life, becomes conformity with him. Or to use different words faith, if it is true, if it is real, becomes love, becomes charity, is expressed in charity. A faith without charity, without this fruit, would not be true faith. It would be a dead faith.

Thus, in our last Catechesis, we discovered two levels: that of the insignificance of our actions and of our deeds to achieve salvation, and that of “justification” through faith which produces the fruit of the Spirit. The confusion of these two levels has caused more than a few misunderstandings in Christianity over the course of centuries. In this context it is important that St Paul, in the same Letter to the Galatians radically accentuates, on the one hand, the freely given nature of justification that is not dependent on our works, but which at the same time also emphasizes the relationship between faith and charity, between faith and works: “In Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love” (Gal 5: 6). Consequently, there are on the one hand “works of the flesh”, which are “immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry…” (Gal 5: 19-20): all works that are contrary to the faith; on the other, there is the action of the Holy Spirit who nourishes Christian life, inspiring “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control” (Gal 5: 22-23). These are the fruits of the Spirit that blossom from faith.

Agape, love, is cited at the beginning of this list of virtues and self-control at the conclusion. In fact, the Spirit who is the Love of the Father and the Son pours out his first gift, agape, into our hearts (cf. Rm 5: 5); and to be fully expressed, agape, love, requires self-control. In my first Encyclical, Deus Caritas Est, I also treated of the love of the Father and the Son which reaches us and profoundly transforms our existence. Believers know that reciprocal love is embodied in the love of God and of Christ, through the Spirit. Let us return to the Letter to the Galatians. Here St Paul says that by bearing one another’s burdens believers are fulfilling the commandment of love (cf. Gal 6: 2).
Justified through the gift of faith in Christ, we are called to live in the love of Christ for neighbour, because it is on this criterion that we shall be judged at the end of our lives. In reality Paul only repeats what Jesus himself said and which is proposed to us anew by last Sunday’s Gospel, in the parable of the Last Judgment. In the First Letter to the Corinthians St Paul pours himself out in a famous eulogy of love. It is called the “hymn to love”: “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal… Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way” (1 Cor 13: 1, 4-5). Christian love is particularly demanding because it springs from Christ’s total love for us: that love that claims us, welcomes us, embraces us, sustains us, to the point of tormenting us since it forces each one to no longer live for himself, closed into his own selfishness, but for him “who for their sake died and was raised” (2 Cor 5: 15). The love of Christ makes us, in him, that new creation (cf. 2 Cor 5: 17), which comes to belong to his Mystical Body that is the Church.