Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[moondweller]

The irony is that they think this all applies to someone else because they are shielded by Christ by virtue of their belief in his saving power.

Well, I can’t use the word “shielded,” but certainly sealed:2 Cor 1:18-22 "But as God is faithful, our word to you is not yes and no. For the Son of God, Christ Jesus, who was preached among you by us–by me and Silvanus and Timothy–was not yes and no, but is yes in Him. For as many as are the promises of God, in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is our Amen to the glory of God through us. Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge (earnest, down payment, see also Eph. 1:13; 4:30)."

 

[AmbroseSJ]

What you have to ask yourself moondweller, is by what authority is my interpretation of Scripture superior to anyone else’s. You CAN’T say because the Bible says so, because EVERYONE else’s interpretation can be similarly justified in their own judgment. And it circular reasoning again. Neither can you say that the Holy Spirit guides you in your interpretation, since ALL opposing interpreters of Scripture would also claim the guidance of the Holy Spirit (which includes the Catholic Church.)

No, you must show us by what authority you have the right interpretation of the Scripture. Is the Moody Bible Institute the final arbiter, the infallible judge of Scripture in your world?

 

[moondweller]

What you have to ask yourself moondweller, is by what authority is my interpretation of Scripture superior to anyone else’s.

I don’t think in the realm of “superiority,” but rather accuracy. And that based on hermeneutics and context.

You CAN’T say because the Bible says so, because EVERYONE else’s interpretation can be similarly justified in their own judgment.

And each one will be held accountable. Just because you hold others and their interpretation of Scripture superior to yourself doesn’t make you exempt from accountability.

No, you must show us by what authority you have the right interpretation of the Scripture.

Can you show me in the Scriptures where it restricts interpretation to certain men? Can you show me where it mentions the various gifts of the Holy Spirit that one of them is “the gift of interpreting Scripture?” Can you show where there is such an ecclesiastical office mentioned in the Scriptures? Such as, Apostles, prophets, teachers and “interpreters of Scripture.” I can’t find the latter, can you?

Is the Moody Bible Institute the final arbiter, the infallible judge of Scripture in your world?

I don’t know. I have never gone there nor taken a course from that institute. Have you?

 

[Pax]

So you’re trying to “love” your way to heaven?

Moon in Christ,

Please…turn that on yourself…“So you’re trying to “faith” your way to heaven?”

Your question is ridiculous.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

"moondweller:

I don’t think in the realm of “superiority,” but rather accuracy. And that based on hermeneutics and context.

Yes, and EVERYONE uses that argument.

moondweller:

And each one will be held accountable. Just because you hold others and their interpretation of Scripture superior to yourself doesn’t make you exempt from accountability.

Is that why you subscribe to a false doctrine where there is no accountability?

Can you show me in the Scriptures where it restricts interpretation to certain men? Can you show me where it mentions the various gifts of the Holy Spirit that one of them is “the gift of interpreting Scripture?” Can you show where there is such an ecclesiastical office mentioned in the Scriptures? Such as, Apostles, prophets, teachers and “interpreters of Scripture.” I can’t find the latter, can you?

Yes, I can too. But where is that person today? That is why I asked you in the first place by what authority you deem your interpretation right, in opposition to the same Church that wrote and protected the Sacred Scriptures.

Give me a name and address, or an organizational name, anything that would lend authority to your own bald assertions.

But you don’t have any do you? Are you ashamed of your teachers? I am speaking of those that you have seen or heard with your own eyes or your own ears, not print on the page of the Bible. Your doctrine comes from men, and you have been taught by men how to read the Bible. But you are ashamed of those very same men aren’t you?

 

[moondweller]

Moon in Christ,

Please…turn that on yourself…“So you’re trying to “faith” your way to heaven?”

Your question is ridiculous.

No. I “have been saved” "by (God’s) grace “through faith” (in Christ) and that not of myself, the “gift” of God, “not as a result of works.”

Therefore, my citizenship, the Scriptures say, is in heaven (Phil. 3:20-21) where my inheritance is also. An inheritance (in Christ) which is “imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven” for me (1 Pet. 1:4).

This is called salvation “by grace.”

 

[AmbroseSJ]

No. I “have been saved” "by (God’s) grace “through faith” (in Christ) and that not of myself, the “gift” of God, “not as a result of works.”

Therefore, my citizenship, the Scriptures say, is in heaven (Phil. 3:20-21) where my inheritance is also. An inheritance (in Christ) which is “imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven” for me (1 Pet. 1:4).

This is called salvation “by grace.”

So your teacher is John Calvin. You believe in predestination. You are simply predestined to go to heaven. You received a free gift (Faith) which is what saves you. As your quote above says, Faith is a gift. The only thing you “did” was accept your free ticket to heaven. But you know Calvin says the unpredestined have no hope. So why do you waste your breath on them?

 

[moondweller]

Yes, and EVERYONE uses that argument.

That’s because there is no other. But just because you leave it up to others doesn’t exempt you from accountability.

Is that why you subscribe to a false doctrine where there is no accountability?

According to the Scriptures I will go before the judgment (bema) seat of Christ and my WORKS will be appraised and I will either receive reward or not. But I myself will not be “judged” nor my salvation (1 Cor. 3:10-15; cf. Jn. 3:18; 5:24).

Yes, I can too.

You “can too” what??? Here was my question to you:Can you show me in the Scriptures where it restricts interpretation to certain men? Can you show me where it mentions the various gifts of the Holy Spirit that one of them is “the gift of interpreting Scripture?” Can you show where there is such an ecclesiastical office mentioned in the Scriptures? Such as, Apostles, prophets, teachers and “interpreters of Scripture.” I can’t find the latter, can you?

Give me a name and address, or an organizational name, anything that would lend authority to your own bald assertions.

What “authority?” I take full responsibility for my interpretations. However, just because you ascribe “authority” to others to interpret the Scriptures for you doesn’t exempt you from personal accountability.

But you don’t have any do you? Are you ashamed of your teachers? I am speaking of those that you have seen or heard with your own eyes or your own ears, not print on the page of the Bible. Your doctrine comes from men, and you have been taught by men how to read the Bible. But you are ashamed of those very same men aren’t you?

What in the world are you talking about? :whacky:

 

[moondweller]

So your teacher is John Calvin. You believe in predestination. You are simply predestined to go to heaven. You received a free gift (Faith) which is what saves you. As your quote above says, Faith is a gift. The only thing you “did” was accept your free ticket to heaven. But you know Calvin says the unpredestined have no hope. So why do you waste your breath on them?

I have said many times on this forum that I AM NOT A CALVINIST. :whacky:

Oh, BTW, it’s not faith that’s the gift, it’s salvation, and “not as a result of works.”

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

What “authority?” I take full responsibility for my interpretations. However, just because you ascribe “authority” to others to interpret the Scriptures for you doesn’t exempt you from personal accountability.

So you deny that your interpretation has come from anyone!!?? The fact that this sounds exactly like your run of the mill born again doctrine is just a coincidence? You claim full authorship of this standard born again doctrine?

BTW, how does accountability for improper interpretation of the Scriptures apply to you? There is nothing you can do to lose salvation right? How are you being held accountable? Are only other people accountable?

moondweller:

According to the Scriptures I will go before the judgment (bema) seat of Christ and my WORKS will be appraised and I will either receive reward or not. But I myself will not be “judged” nor my salvation

So what is this mysterious “reward” that comes on top of salvation? What’s it like to be saved with no reward??? Do you have to go stand in a corner in heaven while everyone else is filled with their reward?

Your doctrine just gets loonier and loonier.

 

[Pax]

No. I “have been saved” "by (God’s) grace “through faith” (in Christ) and that not of myself, the “gift” of God, “not as a result of works.”

Therefore, my citizenship, the Scriptures say, is in heaven (Phil. 3:20-21) where my inheritance is also. An inheritance (in Christ) which is “imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven” for me (1 Pet. 1:4).

This is called salvation “by grace.”

Moon in Christ,

Catholics believe that salvation is by grace, but we do not agree with how you define that point because it is simply an incomplete definition. Please think about your question to which I took exception. When asked the counter question as I posed it*(“So you’re trying to “faith” your way to heaven?”)*, you answered “no” because the question itself is an attempt to make it look like you were somehow trying to work/earn your way into heaven by way of your work of faith.

Unfortunately, that is precisely what you trying to unjustly do when discussing Catholic theology. Please understand and appreciate our position according to the way it has been explained to you over the course of many threads. “Salvation by grace” for you includes “faith” and rightly so. Salvation by grace for the Catholic includes “faith, hope, and charity” and even more rightly so.

Our position in no way weakens, denigrates, or subtracts from salvation by grace. If anything, it gives greater credit and glory to God because of what it attributes to God in terms of what is necessary and what occurs within the Christian believer. If “believing”, which is something we do by way of God’s grace, is not earning our way into heaven, then neither is the Catholic position. Your claims for faith and our claims for “faith, hope, and charity” in God’s plan of salvation are not works righteousness as a wage.

It is for this reason that I challenged the method and phrasing of your question. I hope that you can appreciate the point.

God bless.

 

[david_friol_1]

Does any one else see the shift in the conversation? Now we are apparently moving to authority. We all, both Protestant and Catholic have been taught by others so there is no sense in bringing that up. But I have noticed not to many/or any arguments aginst the Pope’s letters.

 

[fhansen]

So you’re trying to “love” your way to heaven?

Absolutely-this is Christianity 101. Jesus didn’t come to abolish the Law, but to fulfill it-and every jot and tittle must also be fulfilled in us by our following Him; our righteousness must surpass that of the Pharisees-IOWs, we must fulfill the greatest commandment -that’s God’s entire goal for us and the purpose of our being exiled into a place where we can begin the struggle of accomplishing this fulfillment.

As you stated in another post, sin separates man from God. This, simply put, is why sinners cannot enter heaven. No desire to believe otherwise can change the fact that God never intended man to sin to begin with nor is there any reason for Him to desire that we continue sinning. Jesus takes away the sins of the world. Sin and God/Love are mutually exclusive and if not for the grace of the Atonement man would be absolutely hopeless in attempts to overcome sin, i.e. to obey the Law. The sacrifice of Jesus reconciles the separation from God realized at the fall-a separation caused by sin, man’s willful disobedience of God-so that the Spirit of God can operate within man once again as He did originally. Without this continuous relationship, man’s hopelessly doomed to remain in his sins, eternally excluding the Holy Spirit from his life. IOWs, the Law doesn’t justify man, God’s presence in man justifies us. Man must come to see his need so he can turn to God, accepting His offer of forgiveness and help-His offer of* Himself-*so we can come to sin no more. “Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more”.

Our wills are the prize, so to speak. Our choice is now the same as Adam & Eve’s-we can choose God or we can choose sin. He promises, with His grace, to help us choose and abide in the first rather than the latter.

The “faith alone” doctrine is dangerously short-sighted –while it recognizes that man needs God and that only God can save, it supplants the true gospel with the lie that God doesn’t require holiness in order to be able to see Him-claiming that it’s impossible for man to be holy, in fact. Scripture, OTOH, says: “For man this is impossible but for God all things are possible”. Otherwise man remains in his sin.

Salvation doesn’t mean being saved despite our sins, even thought this is true, of course. But the way God effects our salvation is by “writing His laws on our hearts and in our minds”, unless we’re to believe that He’s no longer interested in our obedience. And the beginning of this is faith, but not faith alone -it’s love alone that saves-Love saving us* unto* love- IOWs Gods’ love being molded into us.

 

[Philthy]

I’ve explained it many…times. Phil, like the Pharisees …you too keep asking me to re-explain my position…(you, like) those Pharisees simply refused to accept his account…Because it was connected to Christ, and to Him alone. I find myself in the same position here…

Firstly, you did not, in fact, explain your position in the original post. That is why you were asked to explain it again. You do not get a free pass on an apologetics forum due to alleged past postings.
Secondly, I don’t see any significant parallel with the Gospel account your reference. You imply that the reason why I don’t accept your position is because your position is “connected to Christ, and to Him alone.” That is truly weak and offensive for you to suggest that YOUR failings are actually due to a deficiency on my part. I suggest rather than whining you simply provide a defense in a manner consistent with an apologetics forum.

Your prime mistake, Phil …is that you interpret the Bible by your own feelings, circumstances, and sphere.

This is pure speculation and conjecture. I interpret Scripture just like you do, and in this case I do it better.

You must look at (salvation) in connection to Christ alone (which is how it is Divinely revealed) - not with self.Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Im not looking at being “saved” MD, are you really that clueless that you’ve forgotten the actual topic at hand? The topic at hand is not “being saved”, it is inheriting the Kingdom of God. Can you deal with that topic or is it simply too much for you? :banghead:

Nowhere in the text is Paul accusing the Corinthians of engaging in all those acts.

I never claimed he was accusing them of engaging in “all” of those acts. What I pointed out was that he specifically addressed an issue he KNEW they were engaged in: injustice. And he IMMEDIATELY tells them that the unjust will not inherit the KOG. Here, let me spoon feed you again vs 7-9
“it is, in any case, a failure on your part that you have lawsuits against one another. Why not rather put up with injustice? Why not rather let yourselves be cheated?( Instead, you inflict injustice and cheat, and this to brothers. Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?”
Paul explains that even their having lawsuits against one another is a failure. And he reports that he is aware that they are inflicting injustice to brothers and then says that the unjust will not inherit the KOG. He is talking to them about their behavior and it’s consequences. He also equates their behavior with a number of other behaviors which jeopardize one’s inheritance in the KOG.

He was chastening them for one brother (believer) dragging another brother before the courts of the unrighteous.

Yup, he was, but that isnt ALL of the story - that’s only a small part of it. He never says that those who bring lawsuits before unbelievers won’t inherit the KOG, he says that the unjust won’t, and he does so IMMEDIATELY after accusing them of “inflicting injustice”. It’s very straightforward MD. It becomes more obvious when one reads the letters to the Ephesians and Galatians where there were NO lawsuit issues, but he delivers the same message: those who do such things have no inheritance in the KOG.
It’s very clear to see.

To drive home his point regarding their error, Paul makes the STATEMENT (not the accusation) that the unrighteous (the unbeliever, to whom they were dragging their brother in order to make a decision over them) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

First off, you completely ignore verse 7 in this analysis where Paul ends the discussion about how inappropriate it is that they have lawsuits before unbelievers and transitions to the fact that they themselves are committing injustice.
Secondly, I don’t get what you are purporting the actual message to be - that the unbelievers won’t go to Heaven??? Again that’s a non-point -they already know that.

IN CONTEXT Paul was not accusing them of being those (nouns),

Pure desperation MD. Read and weap:"…you inflict injustice and cheat…Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God?"
He’s talking to them about their behavior, MD. And again, I thought it wasnt behaviour that separates the righteous from the unrighteous, but “belief”. Why would Paul identify the unrighteous with their actions if it’s their “unbelief” that distinguishes them from the righteous??? Certainly you don’t mean to suggest that Christians dont sin, do you? We know that can’t be the case because “all wrongdoing is sin” and Paul initiates the letter pointing out a “wrongdoing” that some of the Corinthians were engaged in. Please take all the time you need to construct a simple explanation to this very simple question. And this time - if you can control yourself - don’t blame your failings on me.

 

[Philthy]

MD:

IOW, what do they who have inherited the kingdom of God have to do with the unrighteous who will not inherit it?

Well, they need to evangelize to them for one thing and that usually requires interaction.

See the disconnect Paul was driving home to those Corinthians?

Yes, I see the disconnect, but I also the rest of what he was driving home and what he drove home in Eph 5 and Galatians 5: certain behaviors jeopardize our inheritance in the KOG.

What do those who have inherited the kingdom of God have to do with those who will not inherit it?

Where does he ever say that they won’t inherit it MD? I never saw that statement anywhere. Your need to make this insinuation points out one of the practical problems with your entire analysis: are really supposed to judge every individual as to whether they are saved or not *prior *to interacting with them?? Totally ridiculous…

You err in your interpretation because you don’t interpret those Corinthians, and their salvation, in direct connection to Christ, but rather by the behavior for which Paul was chastising them (not accusing them of being those nouns). Which, of course, directly affects your own understanding (or rather, misunderstanding) of Divine salvation.He makes no such warning (or threat) in that text, nor any other text of his. You miss his point completely - and I have pointed out to you why.

If what you claim is true, his point is irrelevant. Namely, that even if one does bring brothers unjustly before the unrighteous they will suffer no consequence for having done so other than disappointing Paul.
As further support for my position (our free will choices can jeopardize our inheritance in the KOG) I also have Eph 5 - which reiterates the same message in direct association with the saints themselves, not with the unrighteous.
“Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,…no immoral or impure or greedy person…has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
And further we have the exact same message in Galatians 5 in connection with saved Christians engaging in bad behavior…
"For freedom Christ set us free (ie Paul includes them); so stand firm and do not submit again (ie they had broken away from the yoke through Christ) to the yoke of slavery…I, Paul, … am telling you that if you have yourselves circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
No benefit to you??? That doesnt sound good to me, but perhaps you have a clever, “Christ-centered” way of understanding how a salvation where Christ is no benefit to the saved is still, in fact, salvation
For completeness I’ll include the exact same message that Paul delivers in this letter as the others…
“For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love…I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh.”
But what if one chooses not to live by the Spirit, MD? Apparently Paul sees that as a possibility in the Galatian community of saved believers…
“Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
Why doesnt he just say that those who do such things “aren’t saved”? Why this CONSISTENT change in terminology??
I resubmit that the change in terminology is substantial and not coincidental.
Being “saved” (by faith apart from works) is different than “inheriting the KOG”. Once you come to terms with that fact, then the rest of the interpretation problems will quickly fade away.

Blessings!

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Why can’t you understand that you can be freely saved by grace through faith but still need to love to get to heaven?

Moondweller, do you understand the Catholic concept of love? It means doing something for someone without expecting anything in return. Love is a pure gift. It is not done for reward. So there is the paradox: You can’t get to heaven without love but you can’t love to get to heaven. You must love simply because its the right thing to do, not as a way to earn a reward.

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Quote:
Come on Moondweller. this very verse shows that things can change. In baptism, we are born again, are we not?

I forgot that you disregard John 3.

Quote:
He’s telling them that if they commit those acts, they will be condemned. That’s the point

people who commit sins are sinners.

Quote:
If you had not altered this scriptural passage to make an indefensible point, you would see that 1Cor 6: 9:10 actually says:

Have you considered the point that at least one of the believers acted unjustly to the other to warrant a lawsuit to begin with? Doesnt’t this prove that believers an be unrighteous?

---

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul c
Why can’t you understand that you can be freely saved by grace through faith but still need to love to get to heaven?

Moondweller, do you understand the Catholic concept of love? It means doing something for someone without expecting anything in return. Love is a pure gift. It is not done for reward. So there is the paradox: You can’t get to heaven without love but you can’t love to get to heaven. You must love simply because its the right thing to do, not as a way to earn a reward.

---

Quote:
Come on Moondweller. this very verse shows that things can change. In baptism, we are born again, are we not?

I forgot that you disregard John 3.

Quote:
He’s telling them that if they commit those acts, they will be condemned. That’s the point

people who commit sins are sinners.

Quote:
If you had not altered this scriptural passage to make an indefensible point, you would see that 1Cor 6: 9:10 actually says:

Have you considered the point that at least one of the believers acted unjustly to the other to warrant a lawsuit to begin with? Doesnt’t this prove that believers an be unrighteous?

---

 

[brb3]

I have said many times on this forum that I AM NOT A CALVINIST. :whacky:

So then, what are you ? and don’t just say bac. Give us your church, your training, your mentors in the faith, and trace your church’s root back to the Apostles.

If you can’t show a linkage back to the first 12 … then Catholicism is for you !!!

---

Paul makes it very clear in his Epistles, 2 Thessalonians Chap. 1-3, for example, that the laity are to follow the TRADITIONS and LETTERS of the Elders, they are to imitate Paul and their Elders, and OBEY their COMMANDS in all matters of faith/morals.

These new Thessalonian Christian Converts to the faith were not taught to go off on their own, as lone rangers, and develop maturity / understandings by waiting for the H.S. to guide them into a PERFECT knowledge of God/Christ … w/o the mentoring of Paul & Elders.

Protestants, start out breaking RULE 101 from the get go … and everyone has their own opinion of what verses [they take out of context] mean. They make easy marks for satan … and it soon becomes like the Tower of Babel of old.

 

[brb3]

Does any one else see the shift in the conversation? Now we are apparently moving to authority.

But I have noticed not to many/or any arguments aginst the Pope’s letters.

For none can make a case against those letters of the Pontiff. They are superbly crafted, and address the matter of Luther in an excellent way.

Christ demands authority in his Church ‘Body’. And the only Church I see today with that authority, and able to speak with a unified voice for the True Faith, … is Catholicism.

John shows us in Revelation that ALL the Saints sing the same song, ALL unified in faith and service to Christ, the Godhead. Christ tells us in the Gospel that it is his desire that we all be one/unified, in him.

 

[brb3]

He’s talking to them about their behavior, MD. And again, I thought it wasnt behaviour that separates the righteous from the unrighteous, but “belief”.

**Why would Paul identify the unrighteous with their actions if it’s their “unbelief” that distinguishes them from the righteous?

**

Debate points awarded to Philthy

Moondweller is starting to mix his Faith and Works together ! He can’t keep them apart any longer. For, the minute he goes OUTSIDE the ‘supersacred realm’ of those 8-10 verses he always uses … he gets himself in big trouble …

Remember Moon … scripture interprets scripture, in the Protestant world. You keep chasing your tail. Go to the authority on scripture … listen to what the Church teaches on every topic. Recall Augustine, more brilliant than any of us, was wise enuf to know his limitations… stating that he would not have believed various matters … except for the teaching of the Church on them. GOD BREATHED teachings from the first Apostles … MD !