Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[paul_c]

Yes, and along the same lines, assured Salvation depends on Faith. Yet how can Faith be assured? In his line of argument, if one loses one’s faith, it is because one never had faith. Yet how can anyone lose something they never had? How can ANYONE be assured he has Faith, because if he ever loses his faith, then he never had faith? So what they are REALLY saying is that Faith can never be lost. But if faith can never be lost, then why does Paul condemn the Judaizers who are counting on the Law to justify them. Have they lost their faith? What if a fundamentalist becomes Catholic? Does that mean they lost their faith because they never had it? Can a Catholic even have faith in their world? Or, if Faith can’t be lost, then it doesn’t matter what they believe, or what religion they adhere to because they once had faith, so they always have faith.

Yet, if they admit that faith can be lost, then they also admit that salvation can be lost as well! O dear! What a dilemma for them. They must have to be very illogical to be persuaded by such illogical arguments.

I have also been down this road with Moondweller and a few others. Moondweller has the singular ability to disregard all of this and start right back with Ephesians 2:8-9 as if nothing else has ever been discussed. Nonetheless, he provides a good catalyst for discussion that helps many others see the issues with more clarity.

My big question for Moondweller is " why are you here on Catholic answers Forum." It is very clear that he’s not here to get Catholic Answers but to give answers to Catholics. I’m at a loss to understand what he thinks he’s saving us from. We believe everything he does about having faith in Jesus’ saving power but we believe you must put it into action. Even if he was right and that this was not necessary, can he conceive of anyone being condemned for loving God and neighbor too much? And if he’s seriously crossed the bridge that says its actually harmful to try to love your fellow man or show your love of God through the visible partaking of the sacraments , then All we can do is pray for him…

 

[moondweller]

I have been down this road with him several times. The “you don’t lose your salvation, but you lose your reward” is his attempted means of reconciling what is IMHO irreconcilable.

That’s because both you and AST (as well as paul c & brb3) view salvation as a result of works. Essentially it’s a “reward.” Which, of course, is the Catholic view.

But the Biblical teaching on salvation is quite the opposite:Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."IOW, salvation and rewards are two completely different things. Salvation is not a reward since it’s not at all based on man’s works. It’s gifted to men, by grace through faith (alone).

And why, then, does he (MD) minimize the role of works?

In respect to receiving salvation (gifted) I don’t minimize the “role” of works, I completely dismiss them, altogether - as do the Scriptures. Works, and their subsequent eternal rewards, are for the SAVED who, by grace through faith, are “created in Christ Jesus” for them (Eph. 2:10) - they do not/did not save them (Eph. 2:8-9)

I realize this makes no sense to you. Reason being "…unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3). To the natural mind salvation by grace through faith - not as a result of works, remains utterly senseless. As you expressed, in your mind it’s irreconcilable because you view salvation as a final reward.

 

[fhansen]

I used to think the way MD does. We believed that the CC stifled our relationship with God by placing herself between us and Him. I now see that the Church’s role is to help us get to Him-and that her teachings regarding His nature and will are so much deeper-and much more cognizant of the centrality of *love’s *role- in the whole scheme of things.

We believed that we were somehow slapping God in the face by suggesting we had any part to play in our salvation-Jesus did all-but, as it now seems to me the thinking went, He did it all solely by substituting His righteousness for ours-saving our worthless hides for some unknown reason in a relatively sterile and legalistic fashion, rather than leading the way to our own righteousness which God coveted all along as a means of our restoration to full relationship with Him. When we’ve come to know, appreciate, and ultimately love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength- turned completely from all attachment to sin-we’ll not only be fully just, but finally capable of seeing Him.

 

[moondweller]

Yes, and along the same lines, assured Salvation depends on Faith. Yet how can Faith be assured? In his line of argument, if one loses one’s faith, it is because one never had faith. Yet how can anyone lose something they never had? How can ANYONE be assured he has Faith, because if he ever loses his faith, then he never had faith? So what they are REALLY saying is that Faith can never be lost. But if faith can never be lost, then why does Paul condemn the Judaizers who are counting on the Law to justify them. Have they lost their faith? What if a fundamentalist becomes Catholic? Does that mean they lost their faith because they never had it? Can a Catholic even have faith in their world? Or, if Faith can’t be lost, then it doesn’t matter what they believe, or what religion they adhere to because they once had faith, so they always have faith.

Yet, if they admit that faith can be lost, then they also admit that salvation can be lost as well! O dear! What a dilemma for them. They must have to be very illogical to be persuaded by such illogical arguments.

It’s all quite confusing to you, isn’t it?

 

[fhansen]

I have also been down this road with Moondweller and a few others. Moondweller has the singular ability to disregard all of this and start right back with Ephesians 2:8-9 as if nothing else has ever been discussed. Nonetheless, he provides a good catalyst for discussion that helps many others see the issues with more clarity.

My big question for Moondweller is " why are you here on Catholic answers Forum." It is very clear that he’s not here to get Catholic Answers but to give answers to Catholics. I’m at a loss to understand what he thinks he’s saving us from. We believe everything he does about having faith in Jesus’ saving power but we believe you must put it into action. Even if he was right and that this was not necessary, can he conceive of anyone being condemned for loving God and neighbor too much? And if he’s seriously crossed the bridge that says its actually harmful to try to love your fellow man or show your love of God through the visible partaking of the sacraments , then All we can do is pray for him…

I used to think the way MD does. We believed that the CC stifled our relationship with God by placing herself between us and Him. I now see that the Church’s role is simply to help us get to Him-and that her teachings regarding His nature and will are so much deeper-and much more cognizant of the centrality of *love’s *role- in the whole scheme of things.

We believed that we were somehow slapping God in the face by suggesting we had any part to play in our salvation-Jesus did it all-but, as it now seems to me the thinking went, He did it all solely by substituting His righteousness for ours-saving our worthless hides for some unknown reason in a relatively sterile and legalistic fashion, rather than leading the way to our own righteousness which God coveted all along as a means of our restoration to full relationship with Him. When we’ve come to know, appreciate, and ultimately love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength- turned completely from all attachment to sin-we’ll not only be fully just, but finally capable of seeing Him.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

paul c:

All we can do is pray for him…

I pray that at least he can think things through to their logical conclusion. I don’t believe that God expects us to believe anything that is irrational. I believe God gave us rational thinking powers to help us discern Truth from error.

IOW some Divine Revelations may be beyond our capacity to understand, but they should still be rational, i.e. by the Power of God, it is possible. The Trinity, The Incarnation, and the Eucharist for example.

But irrational doctrines, that have us losing something we never had, or having something that we can never lose, those are things that simply don’t stand up to rational thinking, although at first glance they may *sound *comforting and even biblical.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

I realize this makes no sense to you. Reason being “…unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God” (Jn. 3:3). To the natural mind salvation by grace through faith - not as a result of works, remains utterly senseless.

Yes, of course! I knew that was it! It is impossible to see the rationality of this irrational doctrine because we don’t subscribe to it! But if we suppress our right reason, another gift of God, and believe in something irrational, then it will seem rational!

So by that doctrine, we should believe ANYTHING that seems unreasonable, because it only SEEMS unreasonable because we don’t believe it yet. But once we believe something irrational, then it will seem rational!

No wonder this doctrine succeeds so well in a world gone mad!

 

[TracyR]

So yes, it’s what we do that matters !!! We must live a life devoted to our ‘high callings’ IN CHRIST. We must not ‘fail’ to REPENT & confess our sins and take up our Crosses DAILY, and allow Christ to MOLD our lives on the Potter’s Wheel !!! We learn that Suffering for Christ is part/parcel of Discipleship.

But, its also about what we DON’T DO … we must not 'grow weary in well-doing, and ‘FAIL TO’ PERSEVERE. Apart from the Catholic Church, that is a very difficult matter my brother !!! I tried to Persevere, Protestant style, with OSAS understandings … and that was a disaster !!! I fell back into my SUPERSIZED Pride and Sexual Lusts … breaking ALL of Big 10, on 3 major occasions [lasting years at a time, w/o darkening door of church or praying]. If someone had asked me during those years if I was Christian, I’d of said YES. But, it would of been an answer predicated on my INITIAL faith & justification by God, not my current state, since I was subsequently living OUTSIDE of CHRIST & w/o the H.S. I was living a major caliber Prodigal life … so don’t tell me it isn’t possible to FALL FROM GRACE, back into our sinful past ! You are clueless / delusional on this matter.

But, praise be to God !!! On my 3rd excusion off the reservation … Christ lead me back TO THE FATHER, thru major repentance / penance, and revealed the Catholic Church to me. This time I really have the CONFIDENCE TO KNOW I can Persevere, being a part of the original Church Christ founded. The Church provides ample means for our recovery from occasional sins, and teaches us to live lives of holiness, and provides us the SACRAMENTS, which continually bring us to confession and receipt of God’s ongoing daily graces to his Flock. It is our OASIS in this life.

Your living the Christian life apart from the Catholic Church is a very difficult road my friend. And, when you fall back into, or start to realize your current UNCONFESSED mortal’s, ----- don’t delay, make your way to Catholicism and get into God’s real ‘recovery program’, that enables PERSEVERANCE til your last day & a FINAL SALVATION !!

Recall the words of Christ to those he healed and justified … “GO AND SIN NO MORE” !!! This is where Catholicism EXCELS !! It teaches us how to remain faithful, and how to QUICKLY recover from our missteps … before we LEAVE God’s SAFE HARBOR / OASIS, ---- His Church Universal, MILITANT and TRIUMPHANT.

---

So, to answer your question it’s BOTH !! Not just what God does ALONE for us. Yes, God FIRST draws via grace … but, we must COOPERATE with that offerred grace and respond. And, once we receive our initial Justification [by Grace, thru faith … not of works lest anyman boast] from Christ, we must continue as disciples [by active choice]. We must Chose to “follow and give up mortal sinning” … we must grow into lives of holiness, via discipleship, and maturity that Paul taught was essential. WE must cooperate with God’s calling for us and REMAIN steadfast and ‘worthy disciples’, growing in wisdom, understanding, and bearing fruit … ‘gracious works’ worthy of discipleship. So, Catholics know TODAY that we are SAVED [living lives of holiness, and fully confess/repentant] … but, we also know that apart from the Catholic Church and continued Obedience to Christ, our tomorrows are very PROBLEMATIC.

So, again its COVENANTAL bonding to Christ, the Catholic/Apostolic way, that allows us to have CONFIDENCE IN OUR ABILITY TO PERSEVERE unto FINAL Salvation. Catholics HAVE BEEN saved, we ARE saved, and if we CHOOSE TO PERSEVERE til our ends … we WILL BE SAVED !! Remember, CHRIST NEVER LEAVES OR FORSAKES US … its always we who leave first, choosing not to repent and remain his disciples. We must cooperate with grace offered, and continue to receive God’s grace thruout our lives. So its not ONE & DONE, OSAS as you errantly believe. That is utterly not supportable by scripture, or our lived reality. We can turn back, even on our final day … as did Judas.

I agree Catholics are saved. The difference is that its not being saved by a sinners prayer and thinking your good to go.
People absolutely CAN fall from Grace. We are human and designed to do so.
Catholics need to strive to be saved everyday, not just once by saying a prayer.

I have seen many Protestants say they are saved and do some of the most immoral things. They figured that ’ heck , I said a prayer and I’m good to go, I can do whatever I want. I’m saved." Yet they put no effort into living the life that Jesus taught.

Granted that Catholics can fall into this trap. The difference is if they realize what it is they are doing that they have the Sacraments to get them back onto the right path. Where as with Protestants , you sin, you sin. But your saved. So your all good.

This is where I have issues with just faith alone. God never said that believing in Him and following his son was going to be easy peasy.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

fhansen:

We believed that we were somehow slapping God in the face by suggesting we had any part to play in our salvation-Jesus did it all-but, as it now seems to me the thinking went, He did it all solely by substituting His righteousness for ours-saving our worthless hides for some unknown reason in a relatively sterile and legalistic fashion, rather than leading the way to our own righteousness which God coveted all along as a means of our restoration to full relationship with Him. When we’ve come to know, appreciate, and ultimately love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength- turned completely from all attachment to sin-we’ll not only be fully just, but finally capable of seeing Him.

Beautiful! Not only rational, but has the characteristic of the Divine Love that can not be limited by earthly men’s failure to understand.

 

[moondweller]

We believed that we were somehow slapping God in the face by suggesting we had any part to play in our salvation-Jesus did it all-but, as it now seems to me the thinking went, He did it all solely by substituting His righteousness for ours-saving our worthless hides for some unknown reason in a relatively sterile and legalistic fashion, rather than leading the way to our own righteousness which God coveted all along as a means of our restoration to full relationship with Him.

Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”

Rom 10:3 “For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.”

Phil 3:9 "…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,"I don’t see in Paul’s teaching your idea that Christ came to lead the way “to our own righteousness,” which righteousness then becomes the means of our complete restoration to full relationship with God. In fact, quite the opposite is expressed by Paul. It’s not our own righteousness, but rather the “righteousness of God” which is to be sought. That which is reckoned/imputed at the time of personal belief (faith) in Christ. Only the “righteousness of God” “surpasses that of the Scribes and Pharisees” (Matt. 5:20). Unless one possesses “the righteousness of God” he will not enter the Kingdom of heaven.Rom 3:21-22 “But now apart from law {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe…”

When we’ve come to know, appreciate, and ultimately love God with our whole heart, soul, mind and strength- turned completely from all attachment to sin-we’ll not only be fully just, but finally capable of seeing Him.

Not without the “righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” - according to the Scriptures.

What you’re expressing above is a righteousness according to the Law and a life of striving to achieve sinlessness. However, there is no righteousness according to law - law can only condemn. And sinless perfection in this life is totally unachievable. Especially if you’re trying to attain it according to law. Here’s the principle:Gal 3:23-24 "But before faith came, we (Jews) were kept in custody under law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor {to lead us} to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.God does not lead men to their own righteousness, but rather to Christ that they may be justified (made righteous, the “righteousness of God”) by faith.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

God does not lead men to their own righteousness, but rather to Christ that they may be justified (made righteous, the “righteousness of God”) by faith.

The latter does not rule out the former. Instead it makes the former possible. You are bound to a half-truth, unlike Catholics who have the whole Truth in its fullness. You would rather cling to an irrational doctrine when a rational one exists, and that rational one opens up the entire remainder of the Bible. One isn’t focused on a single irrational doctrine through which all other doctrines must be twisted and perverted to make sense.

 

[Philthy]

That’s because both you and AST (as well as paul c & brb3) view salvation as a result of works. Essentially it’s a “reward.” Which, of course, is the Catholic view.

Gosh you are sly, MD. I don’t recall saying salvation is the result of works at all. In fact, I’m pretty sure I started the discussion by admitting that being “saved” is by faith. The ONLY question that we have been discussing is whether inheriting the KOG is jeopardized by post baptismal (ie post born again, post “saved”) sin. But you dont really want to discuss that any more, do you? There are too many difficult questions to address. What you would prefer to do is pretend that we believe that salvation is by works so that you can “prove” us wrong.

But the Biblical teaching on salvation is quite the opposite:Eph 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."IOW, salvation and rewards are two completely different things.

I know it’s hard to keep your thoughts together, but this verse says nothing about rewards and nothing about heaven and nothing about inheriting the KOG.

Salvation is not a reward since it’s not at all based on man’s works. It’s gifted to men, by grace through faith (alone).

I agree - get over it. It is inheriting the KOG that we differ on - time to deal with it.

I realize this makes no sense to you. Reason being "…unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:3).

Dont continue to blame your weak apologetics on me again MD - it really is unbecoming. Be a man and debate the issues but the ad hominem attacks cloaked in Scripture are pathetic.

To the natural mind salvation by grace through faith - not as a result of works, remains utterly senseless.

I’ll have to take your word for that…

As you expressed, in your mind it’s irreconcilable because you view salvation as a final reward.

No, MD, I dont - this is more of your dodging, obfuscation and straw man attacks.

**Why are you so afraid to show us where Scripture reveals that being saved and inheriting the KOG are “the same thing”? ** You keep spouting off of this topic, but yYou have been awfully quiet on the **two prior requests to answer that question **directly. Is it too hard for you? Or do you really have no answer and think that I’ll just forget about it? I won’t, MD, because I am committed to the truth wherever it leads me. It seems you have plenty of time on your hand, MD, to answer the question. But you don’t - you simply continue to restate it as the platform from which you build your case.

I repeat:

Philthy:

And, for the record, you never addressed my specific rebuttals to each of these issues from prior posts.

• You havn’t even touched the rebuttal of your claim that “being saved and inheriting the KOG are the same else salvation/being saved is meaningless”. I reiterate that being saved is still meaningful even if some of those who are saved don’t ultimately inherit the KOG - it is still a necessary step for those who do inherit it.
• You havent answered why Paul identifies the unrighteous by their behavior when - if your sola fide theology were true - it is their unbelief which condemns them. His doing so undermines your claim that his message is that salvation is by faith alone - for if you were correct he should identify the unrighteous by their UNBELIEF, not by their behavior. But he does identify the unrighteous by their behavior.
• You havent addressed my comments that simply because Paul points out that SOME of the Corinthians USED to be those things, that that does not mean that some of them have not BECOME THEM AGAIN. I submit that that is precisely what he was addressing and warning them about. Some had used their newborn freedom in Christ as an opportunity for the flesh and Paul warns them that doing so jeopardizes their inheritance in the KOG.

Blessings!

 

[fhansen]

Phil 3:9 “…and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from law (i.e., works), but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which {comes} from God on the basis of faith,”[/indent]I don’t see in Paul’s teaching your idea that Christ came to lead the way “to our own righteousness,” which righteousness then becomes the means of our complete restoration to full relationship with God. In fact, quite the opposite is expressed by Paul. It’s not our own righteousness, but rather the “righteousness of God” which is to be sought.

All righteousness comes from God. This includes human righteousness which also includes the original righteousness of Adam & Eve. In order for that righteousness to be restored God and man must be reconciled. The original sin of A&E included loss of faith in God, i.e. He was no longer the God of them, for all practical purposes. This is why their progeny-us- are born without faith in God, let alone love for Him. So faith must first be restored-we must simply come to believe in God first of all in order for restoration to righteousness-to mans full justice- can begin.

What you’re expressing above is a righteousness according to the Law and a life of striving to achieve sinlessness. However, there is no righteousness according to law - law can only condemn.

The Law points to righteousness-the Law itself is Spiritual, in fact, according to Scripture, while we’re not-which is why it can’t justify us-only God can do so, and God is essentially what Adam & Eve effectively eliminated from their lives. This is why now we must come to obey by the Spirit of the Law, through His indwelling-which gives life, rather than by the letter, which kills.

And sinless perfection in this life is totally unachievable.

Sinless perfection is simply the way God created man. Why would He give us laws that are impossible to fulfill, blame us for not fulfilling them, then forgive us anyway for not fulfilling them, no longer expecting them to be fulfilled? Sounds more than a bit capricious. And the Law is fulfilled by our love, whether in this life or finished in the next- because,** “…love is the fulfillment of the Law.” **Rom 13:10.

 

[moondweller]

You havn’t even touched the rebuttal of your claim that “being saved and inheriting the KOG are the same else salvation/being saved is meaningless”. I reiterate that being saved is still meaningful even if some of those who are saved don’t ultimately inherit the KOG - it is still a necessary step for those who do inherit it.

Ok, let’s tackle this.

Define KOG.

 

[Pax]

…
…
And sinless perfection in this life is totally unachievable.
…
…

Moon in Christ,

You are ignoring God’s work of sanctification during our life times, and you are also underestimating the power of God’s grace.

God bless.

 

[moondweller]

Moon in Christ,

You are ignoring God’s work of sanctification during our life times,

“Sanctification” is not the equivalent of sinlessness.

and you are also underestimating the power of God’s grace.

The power of God’s grace is to save the sinner from his sins. Not to effect sinlessness in this yet unredeemed body.

 

[Pax]

“Sanctification” is not the equivalent of sinlessness.The power of God’s grace is to save the sinner from his sins. Not to effect sinlessness in this yet unredeemed body.

Moon in Christ,

I see your statements as opinions only. Scripture indicates something quite different to me than what you have expressed.

Please look at where scripture talks about sinlessness both directly and indirectly…you might then want to modify your thinking.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philthy
You havn’t even touched the rebuttal of your claim that “being saved and inheriting the KOG are the same else salvation/being saved is meaningless”. I reiterate that being saved is still meaningful even if some of those who are saved don’t ultimately inherit the KOG - it is still a necessary step for those who do inherit it.

The kingdom of God is defined as the power of God’s love active in the world.

lets redefine the question to be more specific to the discussion and can’t be mistaken. There are dozens of references to eternal life in the new testament. I think you will find them to be discussing things well beyond faith, like following the commandments, doing works of mercy

 

[brb3]

Titus 3:5 “He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,”
​

Thank you for moving to Epistle of Titus, breaking some new ground in Scripture !! Yes, you make our Catholic arguement, by quoting 3:5.

He SAVE(D) us … past tense my friend !! SAVED us in the PAST, not on basis of our pre-conversion ‘ungracious’ deeds/works … since none of us were righteous on the day of our first Justification / first Conversion. And Paul goes on to say … on that day [in the past] … those Cretans, and we also were Baptized into Christ, made Righteous IN CHRIST, and Rebirthed by H.S.​

 

[ServantJohn]

“For if you will forgive men their offences, your heavenly Father will forgive you also your offences. But if you will not forgive men, neither will your Father forgive you your offences.”
(Matthew 6:14-15 DRB)

Just a verse to contemplate.