Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[moondweller]

The kingdom of God is defined as the power of God’s love active in the world.

From where did you get this definition?

Then according to Philthy, and based on your definition of the KOG, a person can be saved but not enter "the power of God’s love active in the world." Do you agree with him?

 

[moondweller]

Thank you for moving to Epistle of Titus, breaking some new ground in Scripture !! Yes, you make our Catholic arguement, by quoting 3:5.

Hardly, since you don’t find your word “initial” or “initially” in that verse. Or any verse, for that matter, using the word “saved.” That’s something you add, and not because the context demands it, but because your soteriology does (works).

“Saved” means a past, completed event or action. And according to Titus 3:5, “not on the basis of works which we have done in righteousness.”
.

 

[fhansen]

Hardly, since you don’t find your word “initial” or “initially” in that verse. Or any verse, for that matter, using the word “saved.” That’s something you add, and not because the context demands it, but because your soteriology does (works).

“Saved” means a past, completed event or action. And according to Titus 3:5, “not on the basis of works which we have done in righteousness.”
.

Actually, I don’t think Paul was talking about a done deal here.

4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

 

[Pax]

Hardly, since you don’t find your word “initial” or “initially” in that verse. Or any verse, for that matter, using the word “saved.” That’s something you add, and not because the context demands it, but because your soteriology does (works).

“Saved” means a past, completed event or action. And according to Titus 3:5, “not on the basis of works which we have done in righteousness.”
.

Moon in Christ,

You’re being very unreasonable on this. The entire context of being justified would include “initial” if properly understood and appreciated. After all, no one comes from faith to belief. The come from unbelief to belief. Even the hymn *Amazing Grace *illustrates the point by saying “…when I first believed.”

And again, you’re playing a double standard of demanding that every word of us be found in scripture, regardless of meaning and context, but you happily free wheel it for yourself.

God bless.

 

[moondweller]

Actually, I don’t think Paul was talking about a done deal here.

4 But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7

Well let’s see: saved, washed, rebirth, renewal, justified, heirs of eternal life. And no word “initial” to be found. I would say Paul disagrees with you.

The word “might” doesn’t express uncertainty. You can exchange the word “might” for “would,” as some translations do. It’s like me saying, “I wrote you out a five million dollar check that you might/would become rich.”

And you would respond, yes, but I must cash the check. Absolutely. Which in the context of “salvation” (washed, reborn, renewed, justified and an heir of eternal life), it would mean through personal faith in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8-9).

“He saved us not on the basis of works …” is written to those who personally believed in Jesus Christ. IOW, a done deal. Why? Because it (salvation) is not based on our works but on the finished work of Another. Salvation is not a reward but a gift, by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) - according to the Scriptures.

 

[moondweller]

Moon in Christ,

You’re being very unreasonable on this. The entire context of being justified would include “initial” if properly understood and appreciated. After all, no one comes from faith to belief. The come from unbelief to belief.

What? I don’t see where “initial” is even implied.

Even the hymn *Amazing Grace *illustrates the point by saying “…when I first believed.”

Well, if you’re going to use that song, it says, “We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise than when we first believed.” IOW, the writer is expressing the fact that salvation is ETERNAL, i.e,. everlasting, beginning at the time when one first believes: never ending.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Well, if you’re going to use that song [Amazing Grace], it says, “We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise than when we first believed.” IOW, the writer is expressing the fact that salvation is ETERNAL, i.e,. everlasting, beginning at the time when one first believes: never ending.

Context:
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

IOW, the song is talking about Grace not Faith. How precious that GRACE is, was first perceived the hour he first believed. It is Grace that leads the way, it was Grace that SAVED the wretch (first verse.) The believer has been given grace through many dangers toils and snares. It is GRACE that brought the believer home not just Faith alone. You’ll have to search elsewhere to find a born again OSAS anthem.

You are incapable of correctly interpreting even a simple song.

 

[moondweller]

Context:
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost but now am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

T’was Grace that taught my heart to fear.
And Grace, my fears relieved.
How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come;
'Tis Grace that brought me safe thus far
and Grace will lead me home.

IOW, the song is talking about Grace not Faith. How precious that GRACE is, was first perceived the hour he first believed. It is Grace that leads the way, it was Grace that SAVED the wretch (first verse.) The believer has been given grace through many dangers toils and snares. It is GRACE that brought the believer home not just Faith alone. You’ll have to search elsewhere to find a born again OSAS anthem.

You are incapable of correctly interpreting even a simple song.

"When we’ve been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun."And when did singer first begin? The hour he first believed. And from that hour it was GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved, divine favor), not works, that brought him safely through the dangers, toils and snares of this life, and led him Home. He began and ended “by grace through faith.”

That’s what the song is all about, my friend.

 

[Pax]

"When we’ve been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun."And when did singer first begin? The hour he first believed. And from that hour it was GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved, divine favor), not works, that brought him safely through the dangers, toils and snares of this life, and led him Home. He began and ended “by grace through faith.”

That’s what the song is all about, my friend.

Moon in Christ,

Quit trying to nit pick words. When the song says “…first believed…” it is the same as saying “initially believed.”

I don’t know how many times I’ve posted things from the dictionary for your benefit but here we go again:

Merriam-Webster

Definition of INITIAL
1
: of or relating to the beginning : incipient
2
: placed at the beginning : first
— ini·tial·ly \i-ˈni-sh(ə-)lē\ adverb
— ini·tial·ness \i-ˈni-shəl-nəs\ noun

Synonyms: earliest, foremost, headmost, inaugural, first, leadoff, maiden, original, pioneer, premier, virgin

So please…stop the nonsense.

God bless.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

"When we’ve been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun.
We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise
Than when we’ve first begun."And when did singer first begin? The hour he first believed. And from that hour it was GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved, divine favor), not works, that brought him safely through the dangers, toils and snares of this life, and led him Home. He began and ended “by grace through faith.”

That’s what the song is all about, my friend.

First of all, Grace is always “unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved, divine favor.” so adding all that seems to imply that you believe there is some other kind of grace, which there isn’t.

2ndly, dangers, toils and snares: what are they? They are the “works” you fear. Look up toils in your dictionary.

3rdly, Yes, Faith is there, but Grace was there first and last. It is all about Grace. If you understood Grace, you would understand that even Faith is a Grace. It is not something you just “do.” That is what the first verse is talking about.

4thly, It is Grace that allows us to walk through dangers, do God’s work, and avoid the snares of the enemy. Faith began the work of God, or more properly, is our first co-operation with His grace, which draws upon us still more Grace, allowing us to stay on the straight and narrow way. That in turn continues to draw yet more grace from the infinite bounty of Grace, won by our Lord and Savior. God in his kindness and graciousness, allows that grace to be counted as merit, which as you have already attested, will be judged on the Last day.

5thly, Just as in Sacred Scripture, you can only see a handful of verses, which blot out all the rest of Bible in your understanding, the song too is misinterpreted in its last verse which you KEEP referring to as if it is the whole song. The last verse mentions a beginning THAT IS ALL. What is that beginning? The GRACE that SAVED a wretch, when he first believed. He’s still PRAISING GOD IN HEAVEN for the GRACE that began it all! Hence the Title: “AMAZING GRACE”

 

[paul_c]

From where did you get this definition?

Then according to Philthy, and based on your definition of the KOG, a person can be saved but not enter "the power of God’s love active in the world." Do you agree with him?

Its a standard definition used in Catholic Catechism. But there are many nuances to the use of the Kingdom of God. Sometimes in scripture it reflect God’s love active in the world , sometimes it means heaven. That’s why I said a better word to use is eternal life. There is no ambiguity in that term- it means heaven. So yes, a person who is saved may or may not enter eternal life. It depends on whether the person, onced saved, choses to cooperate with the graces provided or whether he/she turns his/her back on those graces and sins mortally. There are dozens of references to eternal life in the new testament and they have various requirements. you can’t take any of them in vacuum.

newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm

 

[moondweller]

Moon in Christ,

Quit trying to nit pick words. When the song says “…first believed…” it is the same as saying “initially believed.”

I don’t know how many times I’ve posted things from the dictionary for your benefit but here we go again:

Merriam-Webster

Definition of INITIAL
1
: of or relating to the beginning : incipient
2
: placed at the beginning : first
— ini·tial·ly \i-ˈni-sh(ə-)lē\ adverb
— ini·tial·ness \i-ˈni-shəl-nəs\ noun

Synonyms: earliest, foremost, headmost, inaugural, first, leadoff, maiden, original, pioneer, premier, virgin

So please…stop the nonsense.

God bless.

In the context of that song “first” means at the moment of belief. If a man should say, “I saw her when I first entered the room,” he means at the moment he entered the room.How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.IOW, by believing the justified enter into grace. Paul states it like this:Rom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand;"Elsewhere he states that we are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14). The true believer is “under” and “stands” in grace (divine favor). And that through faith in Christ.

It’s quite simple, you know.

 

[moondweller]

3rdly, Yes, Faith is there, but Grace was there first and last.

How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.The writer of the song disagrees with you.

It is all about Grace.

Yes, it is all about grace, the moment one believes.

If you understood Grace, you would understand that even Faith is a Grace.

Are you a Calvinist, an Augustinian?

Faith began the work of God,

This is Calvinistic and Augustinian terminology.

or more properly, is our first co-operation with His grace, which draws upon us still more Grace, allowing us to stay on the straight and narrow way.

Grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) is the MEANS “by” which God Himself saves a sinner through faith (in Christ. Eph. 2:8-9). It is what the true believer is “under” and in which he now “stands” before God, having been justified (Rom. 6:14; 5:1-2).

 

[moondweller]

Its a standard definition used in Catholic Catechism. But there are many nuances to the use of the Kingdom of God. Sometimes in scripture it reflect God’s love active in the world , sometimes it means heaven. That’s why I said a better word to use is eternal life. There is no ambiguity in that term- it means heaven. So yes, a person who is saved may or may not enter eternal life. It depends on whether the person, onced saved, choses to cooperate with the graces provided or whether he/she turns his/her back on those graces and sins mortally. There are dozens of references to eternal life in the new testament and they have various requirements. you can’t take any of them in vacuum.

newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm

I think you’re backpeddling. So, you can give it as many definitions as need be. Whatever suits your theology at the moment.

 

[fhansen]

Well let’s see: saved, washed, rebirth, renewal, justified, heirs of eternal life. And no word “initial” to be found. I would say Paul disagrees with you.

The word “might” doesn’t express uncertainty. You can exchange the word “might” for “would,” as some translations do. It’s like me saying, “I wrote you out a five million dollar check that you might/would become rich.”

And you would respond, yes, but I must cash the check. Absolutely. Which in the context of “salvation” (washed, reborn, renewed, justified and an heir of eternal life), it would mean through personal faith in Jesus Christ (Eph. 2:8-9).

“He saved us not on the basis of works …” is written to those who personally believed in Jesus Christ. IOW, a done deal. Why? Because it (salvation) is not based on our works but on the finished work of Another. Salvation is not a reward but a gift, by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9) - according to the Scriptures.

That might be a plausible reading if not for the preponderance of scripture supporting the fact that Jesus taught and the apostles believed they must -and admonished their audience to- persevere, make their election sure, work our their salvation, be holy because without holiness no one has eternal life, be perfect, keep the commandments, finish the race so they don’t fail to win the prize, refrain from sin because sinners don’t enter heaven, etc, etc, etc. And if not for the consistent faith and testimony of Christians down through the centuries. And the idea of renewal in order to be justified speaks to the Catholic understanding of the necessity of sanctification, the necessity of genuine change

BTW, I’ve felt for quite some time that Newton had a somewhat skewed understanding of the faith, as so many have especially since the Reformation.

 

[Pax]

In the context of that song “first” means at the moment of belief. If a man should say, “I saw her when I first entered the room,” he means at the moment he entered the room.How precious did that Grace appear
The hour I first believed.IOW, by believing the justified enter into grace. Paul states it like this:Rom 5:1-2 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand;"Elsewhere he states that we are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14). The true believer is “under” and “stands” in grace (divine favor). And that through faith in Christ.

It’s quite simple, you know.

Moon in Christ,

These tangential statements do not get you off the hook. You like playing word games when the meaning is crystal clear, but not in favor of your position.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul c
Its a standard definition used in Catholic Catechism. But there are many nuances to the use of the Kingdom of God. Sometimes in scripture it reflect God’s love active in the world , sometimes it means heaven. That’s why I said a better word to use is eternal life. There is no ambiguity in that term- it means heaven. So yes, a person who is saved may or may not enter eternal life. It depends on whether the person, onced saved, choses to cooperate with the graces provided or whether he/she turns his/her back on those graces and sins mortally. There are dozens of references to eternal life in the new testament and they have various requirements. you can’t take any of them in vacuum.

Your comment is not helping you find the truth. The question is whether being saved automatically gets you into heaven. Lets recap:

• We all agree that you are saved by grace through faith without the benefit of works.
• We disagree on whether baptism is required to be saved. You say it is not and that all that is required is Faith. The Catholic Position is that the norm for salvation is that you must be baptized. This results in the forgiveness of sins and the baptized person being put in the state of grace. This is discussed throughout the new testament, maybe most obviously in Acts 2: 37-39. Please note that the Catholic Church recognizes that God isn’t bound by the sacraments and that if you desired to be baptized but were physically kept from it (like St. Dismas, the good thief who was cricified with Jesus), that God would take that into account.
• We further disagree on whether you can lose your salvation through sin. You say that once you are saved, you are guaranteed heaven. Catholics believe that you must die in the state of grace to go to heaven and that if you fall from grace through unreconciled sin, that you will be condemned to hell

.

So rather than argue about Ephesians 2: 8-9, lets focus on the real areas of disagreement.

• Is baptism needed for salvation (and lets focus on the normative case, since that applies in virtually all cases)
• Can Salvation be lost.

This way we can more productively seek the truth. Arguing about definitions is just not getting us to the truth.

 

[brb3]

Paul states it like this:Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand;”

Elsewhere he states that we are not under law but under grace (Rom. 6:14). The true believer is “under” and “stands” in grace (divine favor). And that through faith in Christ.

Moondweller …

Let me finish out the verse you abruptly cut short

Rom. 5:2 “… we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice IN OUR HOPE OF SHARING the glory of God.”

now, cross reference this with Rom. 8

Rom 8:16 … When we cry, “Abba ! Father !” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, PROVIDED WE SUFFER WITH HIM IN ORDER THAT WE MAY ALSO BE GLORIFIED with Him.

Therefore …

While we STAND IN CHRIST in the present tense, we can only HOPE to share in God’s glory [Eternal Salvation], PROVIDED WE SUFFER with Christ [in future tense], in order that we MAY ALSO see God’s Glory.

Again as the Catholic Team keeps telling you, Paul teaches we only know our Past/Present circumstances. But, we have a determined FUTURE HOPE that we will remain standing IN CHRIST [via discipleship, suffering, charity, love], and realize final PERSEVERANCE ---- til our earthly deaths and Glorification. Paul’s Soterology, expressed in ALL his Epistles, does not allow you/ me to guarantee our futures. Christ alone is our Judge, we cannot see our future as God does. Nevertheless, we can be ASSURED that Christ will never abandon us first.

So, while OSAS has some support in scripture … it does not hold up as you present it, apart from the fuller teaching/understanding of the Church on the essential need for our Perseverance. Catholics see / acknowledge that Christ is the Good Shepherd, who tends his flock in most excellent ways. If we step away briefly and desire to return, Christ will recover us. If we abandon Christ, back into full apostasy … we no longer remain IN CHRIST, and our Hope of Salvation is in GRAVE Peril, should we die w/o making full confession and being brought back into God’s Rest, via Grace.

This is why Glorification is all about being IN CHRIST [per Paul and John]. We must die IN CHRIST to see the Kingdom of Heaven … and those of Faith and Gracious Works have EVERY CONFIDENCE we will PERSEVERE, if we follow the teachings that Christ taught us. We must live out the Will of God [Keep the 2 Great Commandments] … which fulfills ALL the LAW, and encompasses the New Covenant Beatutides.

 

[moondweller]

Moondweller …

Let me finish out the verse you abruptly cut short

Rom. 5:2 “… we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice IN OUR HOPE OF SHARING the glory of God.”

now, cross reference this with Rom. 8

Rom 8:16 … When we cry, “Abba ! Father !” it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, PROVIDED WE SUFFER WITH HIM IN ORDER THAT WE MAY ALSO BE GLORIFIED with Him.

This is not conditional, it’s a manifestation of one’s true faith.

How much have you “suffered” to date, brb? Can you point out the abundance of Scriptures that tell you just how much you must suffer before you’ll be glorified with Him? Do you pray for suffering daily? What kind of suffering do you pray for? Physical affliction? Emotional? Psychological? Spiritual? Is there a daily, monthly or yearly quota? Certainly if it’s conditional, there must be some Scriptures that tell you how much you must suffer to qualify. God wouldn’t leave that out, would He?.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

This is not conditional, it’s a manifestation of one’s true faith.

How much have you “suffered” to date, brb? Can you point out the abundance of Scriptures that tell you just how much you must suffer before you’ll be glorified with Him? Do you pray for suffering daily? What kind of suffering do you pray for? Physical affliction? Emotional? Psychological? Spiritual? Is there a daily, monthly or yearly quota? Certainly if it’s conditional, there must be some Scriptures that tell you how much you must suffer to qualify. God wouldn’t leave that out, would He?.

[bibledrb]Matt 16:24-27[/bibledrb]

Click on the Commentary link for verse 24 for St. John Chrysostom’s explanation