Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[david_friol_1]

Paul’s preaching, does not clash with faith that works through love; indeed, it demands that our faith itself be expressed in a life in accordance with the Spirit. Often there is seen an unfounded opposition between St Paul’s theology and that of St James, who writes in his Letter: “as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”(2: 26). In reality, while Paul is primarily concerned to show that faith in Christ is necessary and sufSeen in this perspective, the centrality of justification without works, the primary object of ficient, James accentuates the consequential relations between faith and works (cf. Jas 2: 24). Therefore, for both Paul and James, faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justification in Christ. Salvation received in Christ needs to be preserved and witnessed to “with fear and trembling. For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure… Do all things without grumbling or questioning… holding fast the word of life”, St Paul was to say further, to the Christians of Philippi (cf. Phil 2: 12-14, 16).

We are often induced to fall into the same misunderstandings that characterized the community of Corinth; those Christians thought that since they had been freely justified in Christ through faith, “they could do as they pleased”. And they believed and it often seems that today’s Christians also think this that it is permissible to create divisions in the Church, the Body of Christ, to celebrate the Eucharist without looking after the neediest of our brothers, to aspire to better charisms without being aware that each is a member of the other, and so forth. The consequences of a faith that is not manifested in love are disastrous, because it reduces itself to the arbitrariness and subjectivism that is most harmful to us and to our brothers. On the contrary, in following St Paul, we should gain a new awareness of the fact that precisely because we are justified in Christ, we no longer belong to ourselves but have become a temple of the Spirit and hence are called to glorify God in our body with the whole of our existence (cf. 1 Cor 6: 19). We would be underselling the inestimable value of justification, purchased at the high price of Christ’s Blood, if we were not to glorify him with our body. In fact, our worship at the same time reasonable and spiritual is exactly this, which is why St Paul exhorts us “to present [our] bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God” (Rm 12: 1). To what would a liturgy be reduced if addressed solely to the Lord without simultaneously becoming service to one’s brothers, a faith that would not express itself in charity? And the Apostle often places his communities in confrontation with the Last Judgment, on the occasion of which: “we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body” (2 Cor 5: 10; cf. also Rm 2: 16). And this idea of the Last Judgment must illumine us in our daily lives.

If the ethics that Paul proposes to believers do not deteriorate into forms of moralism and prove themselves timely for us, it is because, each time, they start from the personal and communal relationship with Christ, to be realized concretely in a life according to the Spirit. This is essential: the Christian ethic is not born from a system of commandments but is a consequence of our friendship with Christ. This friendship influences life; if it is true it incarnates and fulfils itself in love for neighbour. For this reason, any ethical decay is not limited to the individual sphere but it also weakens personal and communal faith from which it derives and on which it has a crucial effect. Therefore let us allow ourselves to be touched by reconciliation, which God has given us in Christ, by God’s “foolish” love for us; nothing and no one can ever separate us from his love (cf. Rm 8: 39). We live in this certainty. It is this certainty that gives us the strength to live concretely the faith that works in love.

 

[david_friol_1]

BENEDICT XVI

GENERAL AUDIENCE

Saint Peter’s Square
Wednesday, 8 November 2006

St Paul’s new outlook

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In our previous Catechesis two weeks ago, I endeavoured to sketch the essential lines of the biography of the Apostle Paul. We saw how his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus literally revolutionized his life. Christ became his raison d’être and the profound motivation of all his apostolic work.

In his Letters, after the Name of God which appears more than 500 times, the name most frequently mentioned is Christ’s (380 times). Thus, it is important to realize what a deep effect Jesus Christ can have on a person’s life, hence, also on our own lives. Actually, the history of salvation culminates in Jesus Christ, and thus he is also the true discriminating point in the dialogue with other religions.

Looking at Paul, this is how we could formulate the basic question: how does a human being’s encounter with Christ occur? And of what does the relationship that stems from it consist? The answer given by Paul can be understood in two stages.

In the first place, Paul helps us to understand the absolutely basic and irreplaceable value of faith. This is what he wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “We hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (3: 28).

This is what he also wrote in his Letter to the Galatians: “[M]an is not justified by works of the law but only through faith in Jesus Christ; even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified” (2: 16).

“Being justified” means being made righteous, that is, being accepted by God’s merciful justice to enter into communion with him and, consequently, to be able to establish a far more genuine relationship with all our brethren: and this takes place on the basis of the complete forgiveness of our sins.

Well, Paul states with absolute clarity that this condition of life does not depend on our possible good works but on the pure grace of God: “[We] are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom 3: 24). With these words St Paul expressed the fundamental content of his conversion, the new direction his life took as a result of his encounter with the Risen Christ.

Before his conversion, Paul had not been a man distant from God and from his Law. On the contrary, he had been observant, with an observance faithful to the point of fanaticism. In the light of the encounter with Christ, however, he understood that with this he had sought to build up himself and his own justice, and that with all this justice he had lived for himself.

He realized that a new approach in his life was absolutely essential. And we find this new approach expressed in his words: “The life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me” (Gal 2: 20).

Paul, therefore, no longer lives for himself, for his own justice. He lives for Christ and with Christ: in giving of himself, he is no longer seeking and building himself up. This is the new justice, the new orientation given to us by the Lord, given to us by faith.

Before the Cross of Christ, the extreme expression of his self-giving, there is no one who can boast of himself, of his own self-made justice, made for himself! Elsewhere, re-echoing Jeremiah, Paul explains this thought, writing, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord” (I Cor 1: 31 = Jer 9: 23-24ff.); or: “Far be it from me to glory except in the Cross of Our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6: 14).

In reflecting on what justification means, not for actions but for faith, we thus come to the second component that defines the Christian identity described by St Paul in his own life.

This Christian identity is composed of precisely two elements: this restraint from seeking oneself by oneself but instead receiving oneself from Christ and giving oneself with Christ, thereby participating personally in the life of Christ himself to the point of identifying with him and sharing both his death and his life. This is what Paul wrote in his Letter to the Romans: “[A]ll of us… were baptized into his death… we were buried therefore with him… we have been united with him… So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” (Rom 6: 3, 4, 5, 11).

These last words themselves are symptomatic: for Paul, in fact, it was not enough to say that Christians are baptized or believers; for him, it was just as important to say they are “in Christ Jesus” (cf. also Rom 8: 1, 2, 39; 12: 5; 16: 3, 7, 10; I Cor 1: 2, 3 etc.).

At other times he inverted the words and wrote: “Christ is in us/you” (Rom 8: 10; II Cor 13: 5) or “in me” (Gal 2: 20).

 

[david_friol_1]

This mutual compenetration between Christ and the Christian, characteristic of Paul’s teaching, completes his discourse on faith.

In fact, although faith unites us closely to Christ, it emphasizes the distinction between us and him; but according to Paul, Christian life also has an element that we might describe as “mystical”, since it entails an identification of ourselves with Christ and of Christ with us. In this sense, the Apostle even went so far as to describe our suffering as “the suffering of Christ” in us (II Cor 1: 5), so that we might “always [carry] in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies” (II Cor 4: 10).

We must fit all this into our daily lives by following the example of Paul, who always lived with this great spiritual range. Besides, faith must constantly express humility before God, indeed, adoration and praise.

Indeed, it is to him and his grace alone that we owe what we are as Christians. Since nothing and no one can replace him, it is necessary that we pay homage to nothing and no one else but him. No idol should pollute our spiritual universe or otherwise, instead of enjoying the freedom acquired, we will relapse into a humiliating form of slavery.

Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Moondweller …

You went to Bible College. You have at minimum a Master’s Degree in Theology. Perhaps even a Doctorate. How can you read Rev. Chp. 2 … and not see Christ [and John] have discredited your OSAS dogma ?

Scripture interprets scripture for you … so, exegete Rev. Chp. 2 for us, to suppport Protestant OSAS Soterology. Clearly you have misinterpreted those several ‘select’ Pauline passages you quote from to support OSAS, ---- a viewpoint that had its inception from the 1st Century, conceived by the Nicolaitans, and rejected by Christ in his message to the Ephesians.

If you cannot do so, or do not wish to … then, don’t ever bring up the OSAS heresy again in other threads.

Did you know that many born agains take correspondence courses from the Moody Bible Institute from the comfort of their own closet? They don’t automatically have advanced degrees in Theology. If md claims to have advanced degrees, his problems with logic and clear thinking (cogency) belies that claim.

 

[fhansen]

Did you know that many born agains take correspondence courses from the Moody Bible Institute from the comfort of their own closet? They don’t automatically have advanced degrees in Theology. If md claims to have advanced degrees, his problems with logic and clear thinking (cogency) belies that claim.

The fact is that even well-credentialed scholars can disagree on the meaning of Scripture-even between Catholic scholars. The take home message is that sola scriptura is a worthless doctrine-we’re hopelessly lost trying to find the true gospel without Gods’ Church to guide us.

 

[paul_c]

The fact is that even well-credentialed scholars can disagree on the meaning of Scripture-even between Catholic scholars. The take home message is that sola scriptura is a worthless doctrine-we’re hopelessly lost trying to find the true gospel without Gods’ Church to guide us.

The problem for Protestants is that once they turn away from the Catholic Church, all that’s left for them of the sacred is the bible. They have to grasp on to it as their only remaining link to Jesus, even if they don’t fully understand what it means.

 

[Pax]

david_friol,

The Pope can really preach and teach the word…thanks for the postings and God bless!

 

[moondweller]

I dont find it totally false that entering into a relationship with God that sometimes doesnt end in going to Heaven meaningless at all. Perhaps you could explain yourself rather than simply disagreeing.

Then again, history has shown that you can’t actually defend such statements - you just hold them as unassailable and expect us to do the same.I’ve explained it many, many times. Phil, like the Pharisees in John chapter nine who refused to believe the testimony of the man formerly blind (so they kept asking how he received his sight), you too keep asking me to re-explain my position. It wasn’t that the formerly blind man hadn’t clearly told them how he’d received his sight, it was that those Pharisees simply refused to accept his account. Why? Because it (his healing) was connected to Christ, and to Him alone. I find myself in the same position here as that poor man was there.

Your prime mistake, Phil (and the others caught up in this dialogue), which is the prime source of all mistakes when interpreting Scripture, is that you interpret the Bible by your own feelings, circumstances, and sphere. You’ll never understand the Word of God in such a manner. You must look at it as it’s revealed to us: In connection with Christ - not with SELF.

The Pharisees refused to accept the testimony of the once blind man because what was done to him was directly connected to Christ. Salvation, as revealed in the Scriptures, must be accepted and believed in the same way. You must look at it in connection to Christ alone (which is how it is Divinely revealed) - not with self.Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

OK, MD, this is you simply RESTATING your position without actually arguing it. The fact that one IS no longer in Adam does not mean that they won’t return to that state.

Again, you’re interpreting in connection with self, not Christ. To be no longer in Adam but now in Christ (the “Last Adam”) is not a mere subjective mind-set, but a whole new “creation” in Christ (Eph. 2:10; 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). Can you give one example of where God uncreated something He created?

Is this really your position?? That the fact that it is list of “nouns” somehow obviates the otherwise clear fact that it applies to those Corinthians who were engaged in those acts?

Nowhere in the text is Paul accusing the Corinthians of engaging in all those acts. He was chastening them for one brother (believer) dragging another brother before the courts of the unrighteous.

To drive home his point regarding their error, Paul makes the STATEMENT (not the accusation) that the unrighteous (the unbeliever, to whom they were dragging their brother in order to make a decision over them) will not inherit the kingdom of God. IN CONTEXT Paul was not accusing them of being those (nouns), but rather, to the contrary, and to make the contrast, he says:1 Cor 6:11 "Such were (not “are”) some of you; but you were washed (by the blood of Christ), but you were sanctified (set apart now “in Christ”), but you were justified (by/through faith in Christ) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."IOW, what do they who have inherited the kingdom of God have to do with the unrighteous who will not inherit it? See the disconnect Paul was driving home to those Corinthians? What do saints have to do with the unrighteous? What do believers have to do with unbelievers? What does light have to do with darkness? What do those who have inherited the kingdom of God have to do with those who will not inherit it?

You err in your interpretation because you don’t interpret those Corinthians, and their salvation, in direct connection to Christ, but rather by the behavior for which Paul was chastising them (not accusing them of being those nouns). Which, of course, directly affects your own understanding (or rather, misunderstanding) of Divine salvation.

Paul warns saved believers that their behavior could cost them their inheritance in the KOG.

He makes no such warning (or threat) in that text, nor any other text of his. You miss his point completely - and I have pointed out to you why.

 

[Yab_Yum]

Your prime mistake, Phil (and the others caught up in this dialogue), which is the prime source of all mistakes when interpreting Scripture, is that you interpret the Bible by your own feelings, circumstances, and sphere. You’ll never understand the Word of God in such a manner. You must look at it as it’s revealed to us: In connection with Christ - not with SELF.

And yet Christ was one of us.

 

[moondweller]

And yet Christ was one of us.

But He wasn’t YOU. And when it comes to salvation, Scripture points to HIM, not “one of us.”

 

[Yab_Yum]

… when it comes to salvation, Scripture points to HIM, not “one of us.”

Telling you use scripture in the same breath as salvation. Rather, His finger points to me.

 

[paul_c]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philthy
I dont find it totally false that entering into a relationship with God that sometimes doesnt end in going to Heaven meaningless at all. Perhaps you could explain yourself rather than simply disagreeing.

MD, this is a surprising condemnation from a born again Christian who believes in individual interpretation of the bible. Indeed, isn’t it you that choose your own interpretation of scripture rather than follow what the Catholic Church teaches?

The Pharisees refused to accept the testimony of the once blind man because what was done to him was directly connected to Christ. Salvation, as revealed in the Scriptures, must be accepted and believed in the same way. You must look at it in connection to Christ alone (which is how it is Divinely revealed) - not with self.

Lets be clear here. We need to follow the will of God, not our own whims. This is true. As John the Baptist said, " He must increase, we must decrease." But that implies that we have the responsibility of actually following his will, not just give it lip service. And if our actions don’t reflect love, then we will be condemned.

Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Yes, this is true, but so is the following from Luke 10:
25 There was a scholar of the law 11 who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?”
27 He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
28 He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”
Why can’t you understand that you can be freely saved by grace through faith but still need to love to get to heaven?

Quote:
OK, MD, this is you simply RESTATING your position without actually arguing it. The fact that one IS no longer in Adam does not mean that they won’t return to that state.

Come on Moondweller. this very verse shows that things can change. In baptism, we are born again, are we not?

Quote:
Is this really your position?? That the fact that it is list of “nouns” somehow obviates the otherwise clear fact that it applies to those Corinthians who were engaged in those acts?

. He’s telling them that if they commit those acts, they will be condemned. That’s the point.

To drive home his point regarding their error, Paul makes the STATEMENT (not the accusation) that the unrighteous (the unbeliever, to whom they were dragging their brother in order to make a decision over them) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

If you had not altered this scriptural passage to make an indefensible point, you would see that 1Cor 6: 9:10 actually says:

9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites
10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

The English is clear. Why don’t you understand that if you do these things, whether you have claimed to believe in Christ or not, then you will be condemned? Now your argument might be that a “TRUE” believer would never do these things and I would agree but there are many people who think they are believers that do.

 

[paul_c]

IN CONTEXT Paul was not accusing them of being those (nouns), but rather, to the contrary, and to make the contrast, he says:
1 Cor 6:11 “Such were (not “are”) some of you; but you were washed (by the blood of Christ), but you were sanctified (set apart now “in Christ”), but you were justified (by/through faith in Christ) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”
IOW, what do they who have inherited the kingdom of God have to do with the unrighteous who will not inherit it? See the disconnect Paul was driving home to those Corinthians?

yes, he’s condemning them for going to public court rather than bearing wrongs patiently and he’s appealling to them to be righteous.

What do saints have to do with the unrighteous? What do believers have to do with unbelievers? What does light have to do with darkness? What do those who have inherited the kingdom of God have to do with those who will not inherit it?

Saints will try to correct and save the unrighteous out of love.

You err in your interpretation because you don’t interpret those Corinthians, and their salvation, in direct connection to Christ, but rather by the behavior for which Paul was chastising them (not accusing them of being those nouns). Which, of course, directly affects your own understanding (or rather, misunderstanding) of Divine salvation.

He’s chastising them for going to secular court against fellow believers.

Quote:
Paul warns saved believers that their behavior could cost them their inheritance in the KOG.

He certainly warns them that their behavior can cost them their inheritance in heaven many many times:

In Romans 2: 5-10 for instance. I don’t have time to look up other one for you now but I will if someone doesn’t do it first.

 

[bluelake]

david_friol:
We can do niothing to earn our fatih, Faith is a gift.
PS.139:13-18

 

[paul_c]

We can do niothing to earn our fatih, Faith is a gift.
PS.139:13-18

How does psalm 139: 13-18 prove that faith is a gift?

13 You formed my inmost being; you knit me in my mother’s womb.
14 I praise you, so wonderfully you made me; wonderful are your works! My very self you knew;
15 my bones were not hidden from you, When I was being made in secret, fashioned as in the depths of the earth.
16 Your eyes foresaw my actions; in your book all are written down; my days were shaped, before one came to be.
17 How precious to me are your designs, O God; how vast the sum of them!
18 Were I to count, they would outnumber the sands; to finish, I would need eternity.
19 If only you would destroy the wicked, O God, and the bloodthirsty would depart from me!

We know that god made us and that he is all knowing and all powerful and that he can predict our actions perfectly. But we also have free will. This was demonstrated in Genesis and in every action of man since…

 

[david_friol_1]

I really hope all of us can truly come to see the beauty and simplicity of this truth as Pope Benedict XVI has so wonderfully explained which puts all of our attempts to silence.

 

[brb3]

I really hope all of us can truly come to see the beauty and simplicity of this truth as Pope Benedict XVI has so wonderfully explained which puts all of our attempts to silence.

We did … Awesome Papal expose’ on the Faith, on Paul’s meaning on Justification, etc. I used to think the Protestants had the best Preachers/Preaching. But, this Pope is far superior to them all.

There was one major typo in the info … about half-way thru. I wish to copy these papal messages and distribute to fence-sitting Protestants. Will go to Papal site & copy from that site … to print out info minus typo.

Another profound link for info on grace/faith topic is www.theholyeucharist.com/
Have you seen that video yet ?

 

[AmbroseSJ]

paul c:

MD, this is a surprising condemnation from a born again Christian who believes in individual interpretation of the bible. Indeed, isn’t it you that choose your own interpretation of scripture rather than follow what the Catholic Church teaches?

The irony is that their doctrine of private judgment means their interpretation is the only right one. That is why there are 33000 different Protestant denominations.

The sad truth is, belief in private judgment underscores a serious lack of understanding of the Bible. Those that hold that error, are blind to the fact that the Bible can easily be interpreted thousands of different ways, proving thousands of conflicting and opposing doctrines. It’s a pernicious blindness too in that they refuse to see. Any intelligent disinterested reader can see that. That is why Jesus spoke in parables which born agains do not understand:

[bibledrb]Matt 13:13-15[/bibledrb]

 

[paul_c]

The irony is that their doctrine of private judgment means their interpretation is the only right one. That is why there are 33000 different Protestant denominations.

The sad truth is, belief in private judgment underscores a serious lack of understanding of the Bible. Those that hold that error, are blind to the fact that the Bible can easily be interpreted thousands of different ways, proving thousands of conflicting and opposing doctrines. It’s a pernicious blindness too in that they refuse to see. Any intelligent disinterested reader can see that. That is why Jesus spoke in parables which born agains do not understand:

[bibledrb]Matt 13:13-15[/bibledrb]

The irony is that they think this all applies to someone else because they are shielded by Christ by virtue of their belief in his saving power.

 

[moondweller]

Why can’t you understand that you can be freely saved by grace through faith but still need to love to get to heaven?

So you’re trying to “love” your way to heaven?

Come on Moondweller. this very verse shows that things can change. In baptism, we are born again, are we not?

We are not.

He’s telling them that if they commit those acts, they will be condemned. That’s the point.

They’re not verbs they’re nouns.

If you had not altered this scriptural passage to make an indefensible point, you would see that 1Cor 6: 9:10 actually says:

9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor sodomites nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God

So how did I alter it? They’re still nouns. They’re the unjust who will not inherit the KOG.

His point is (based on the CONTEXT), how should the 'just" (saints) go before the unjust (unrighteous) to make decisions over/between them? How should those who have inherited the KOG appeal to those who won’t?

Those nouns aren’t describing the Corinthian believers (saints), but the unrighteous ones those Corinthian believers were dragging their brethren (fellow saints) before and telling them (the unrighteous) to judge over them.

Paul was correcting their behavior toward one another. Not accusing them of being those nouns, much less, threatening the loss of their salvation.

The English is clear.

Yes, It is. So is the CONTEXT:1 Cor 6:1-3 Does any one of you, when he has a case against his neighbor, dare to go to law before the unrighteous and not before the saints? Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent {to} {constitute} the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more matters of this life?