Faith/Grace...Grace/Faith

[Pax]

Nope. Only happened once. Moondweller’s right. (Macc. is not Scripture according to us Prots.) Hebrews & James and the rest speak of the same event as Genesis. Sorry you did all that work for nothing.

Kevin in Christ,

You deny but cannot refute what was given. Moreover, even if you do not accept Maccabees as scripture, it would still be clear evidence of how the Jews understood the issue and it is perfectly congruent with all of the other evidence from the scriptures you do accept, but apparently refuse to believe.

God bless.

 

[Globachio]

Kevin in Christ,

You deny but cannot refute what was given. Moreover, even if you do not accept Maccabees as scripture, it would still be clear evidence of how the Jews understood the issue and it is perfectly congruent with all of the other evidence from the scriptures you do accept, but apparently refuse to believe.

God bless.

I refuse to believe exegesis that’s wrong.

Again, sorry you went through so much trouble for nothing.

Kevin (in Christ? Not sure what that’s about.)

 

[moondweller]

First of all, it is you who have rendered the word Salvation meaningless.

On the contrary, I allow “saved” to mean exactly what it says: “saved”: delivered form the eternal consequence of sin(s), guarded from Divine judgment/condemnation. As the Scriptures clearly state. Paul writes:Eph 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast."And Jesus Himself said:John 5:24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.”

You are rendering 90% of the Bible meaningless with this man-made false dogma.

Hardly. Christ Himself was the goal of the Law for righteousness. The Law, found in the O.T. writings, could save no one but served as a tutor to lead those under it (Jews, and the world through them) TO CHRIST, that we may be justified BY FAITH (not law/works). You see, ASJ, Someone far greater than Moses has come, and He brought salvation with/through Him (Jn. 1:17.)

What about the Parable of the Prodigal son?

What about it? It says nothing about salvation in that parable.

Why the need for repentance and forgiveness, even after one is saved by Faith?

That’s a good question since Scripture presents no such need: Acts 10:43; Acts 13:38; Col. 1:14; 1 Jn. 2:12. Forgiven for His name’s sake because He bore them all in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and died TO them, once for all (Rom. 10:10).

Why do you ignore Jesus?

On the contrary, I exalt the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ, as does Pauline soteriology found in his Epistles.

You set up Paul against the Word made flesh.

To the contrary, like Paul I preach the cross (see 1 Cor 1:18)

You are so confused on just one small doctrine, and have no concept of the havoc you wreak on the entire remainder of the Gospel message itself.

Salvation by grace through faith in the Person and sacrificial work of Jesus Christ IS the gospel.

Jesus gives us the Parable of the thief in the night, and the need for constant vigilance… Why? Jesus has said we must do works, not for our salvation, but because it is our duty as Christians. If we neglect those duties, we can see the result in the parables of Jesus. The rich man and Lazarus is another parable about a rich man THAT DID NO WORKS. What was his reward? Eternal damnation.

Odd! Just above you said "not for salvation. You’re in two minds, and so you interpret the Scriptures accordingly.

What about your back tracking and reneging on your own statements. You have been quoted as saying Salvation CAN BE LOST, just as Paul warned the Galatians.

I’ve never said salvation can be lost. If I "wrote’ it, it was a typo, and should have read “can not be lost.” Look at all my posts. They’re the preponderance of evidence that I have always held fast to the Biblical doctrine of eternal salvation. I could adhere to no other since I’ve always believed, according to the Scriptures, that salvation was wrought not by me but Another: Jesus Christ. I enter into that salvation via FAITH in Him alone, “…not as a result of works.”

However your argument is that the person never had Faith in the first place if it is ever lost.

An oxymoron. One can not lose something he never had. You see, your soteriology is constructed on the idea that all who are baptized are potentially saved. You have no concept of “saved.” IOW, salvation through baptism. “Salvation” meaning a state of “sanctifying grace” which one must preserve by sacraments, good works and avoiding unconfessed, so-called “mortal” sins. Hence, one is not truly “saved.” Only an uncertain “hope so.”

Now you are embarrassed to admit you said that, and try to pretend you never said it,

I’m “pretending” nothing of the sort.

by saying salvation can not be lost because then the word is meaningless.

If salvation can be lost then, truly, the word is meaningless.

But to say salvation can be gained is no different.

Oh but it is. A lost person can enter into (thereby gain) a “saved” state (of being) through FAITH. God Himself saves him by grace, through faith.

You are gaining salvation by your “work” of accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.

“Accepting” Christ is synonymous with “believing” in Him. Scripture does not recognize belief as a work. Read Eph. 2:8-9 again where one is saved through faith…not as a result of works. Hence, faith is not recognized as a work.

You have rendered the word meaningless yourself! You weren’t saved, you simply picked up salvation with more ease than putting on a pair of shoes. What a mockery you make of salvation.

God has made salvation easy for men by having laid the burden of it on Christ, who endured it (in our stead). To this day men stumble over the simplicity of it. Because men consider pure, unadulterated grace (unmerited favor) repugnant. Hence, they must dilute it with works. But God accepts only ONE Man’s work for man’s salvation. And men are required to believe in it.

You are nothing but a broken record.

Broken I was, made whole I am.

You reach an unsatisfactory conclusion of illogical contradictory statements, and then start over again from the beginning.

I can’t add to the gospel message (1 Cor. 1:18).

 

[Pax]

This is the ONLY time God justifies Abraham. He (the Lord) reckons it (his faith) TO him as righteousness.God does not justify Abraham in Hebrews. ONLY in Gen. 15:6 does it say that He (the Lord) reckoned it (his faith) TO him as righteousness.James quotes Gen. 15:6 in Ja. 2:23 because it’s the ONLY place where it says the Lord reckoned it (his faith) TO him as righteousness. Nowhere in Gen. 22 is it recorded that the Lord reckoned Abraham righteous.

Moon in Christ,

Please read my analysis over again as well as the Book of Hebrews Chapter 11. I will go through this with you again in summary form, so please pay attention and then read my several posts over again.

Hebrews 11 begins by saying:

1. NOW FAITH is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2. For by it the men of old received divine approval. 3. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.

The divine approval is the reckoning of righteousness to the “men of old.” The men of old are then listed beginning with Abel all the way through a lengthy list of people, some named and some unnamed and ending with the phrase that they were “well attested by their faith.”[verse 39].

It is absolutely clear that all of these patriarchs, prophets and others are all being spoken of in the same way and that all are examples of the same thing. There are no exceptions cited or even a hint or suggestion that any are examples of something other than faith and righteousness. Since they are all the same we can draw further conclusions about all of them by way of the context.

Now please note that the example of Abel sets the context and tenor of what is being said about all of those listed. In the reference to Abel it says:

Heb 11:4

By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking.

In other words it was “reckoned to him as righteousness.”

Now, clearly that applies to all of the other figures listed in Hebrews 11 and even a well respected Protestant Commentary which I cited in one of my previous posts agrees with that point. Since it applies to Abraham as listed in Hebrews 11 it thus means that Abraham was reckoned righteous when by faith he left Haran to sojourn to an unknown place promised to him by God. This instance is found in Gen 12: 1-4, and thus easily proves that Abraham was justified on more than one occasion.

Your comment on James chapter 2 is meaningless and my posts exploded your comment in advance. Paul cites two different examples of Abraham being justified. He references Gen 15:6 in Romans, and he references Gen 12:1-4 in Galatians 3:5-9. Paul, or one of his close disciples, is most likely the author of Hebrews and that Book also cites Gen 12:1-4 as an example of Abraham being justified. It is so utterly obvious that no reasonable person that is not blinded by doctrine could miss it.

Please take no offense, but your denial is simply that…it is a denial…it is not a refutation. You need to appreciate the difference between those two things, and thus learn to appreciate the truth no matter how difficult it is for your preconceived ideas and doctrines.

God bless.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

AAAA

 

[AmbroseSJ]

moondweller:

God has made salvation easy for men by having laid the burden of it on Christ, who endured it (in our stead). To this day men stumble over the simplicity of it. Because men consider pure, unadulterated grace (unmerited favor) repugnant. Hence, they must dilute it with works. But God accepts only ONE Man’s work for man’s salvation. And men are required to believe in it.

I shouldn’t reply to you since you have proven to be duplicitous and willfully obtuse by the answers you have posted. However your comment above is worthy of note.

You are ignorant of God’s plan, by virtue of His grace, to make man capable of merit. Grace leads to grace. You deny man is capable of merit only by making God a liar. The grace and merit that Jesus wrought on the cross has been showered on believers (grace) and makes them capable of meriting still more grace, by their cooperation with His grace (works) . What do you make of the Parable of the Good Samaritan? This is a parable about works. It is only by WORKS that the Samaritan has PROVEN to be a neighbor as taught by the Law of Moses and Jesus Himself. What is Jesus saying to born-agains? That they are no different from the Priest and Levite smug and self-satisfied that bypassed the dying man in the road. But it is only by works that Faith is PROVEN in the eyes of God.

Why do you think the Son of God was put to death? Because of His WORKS! That is how we show ourselves to be His disciples, and PROVE TO GOD, that we are His children.

What do you think of this passage in the Bible [bibledrb] Matt 7: 21-24 [/bibledrb]

Here is Jesus telling you directly and clearly, that without works you won’t be saved!!

You admit you don’t understand the parable of the prodigal son. You say it has nothing to do with salvation, despite all of my many allusions to how the parable relates not only to salvation, but to repentance and reconciliation. Born agains are uncomfortable with all of the doctrines of repentance and reconciliation mentioned in the Bible because it undermines your false doctrine of NEVER NEEDING repentance and reconciliation once you have been saved.

In Sum. Grace is necessary for works. Works are necessary for Grace. Works are necessary for salvation, BY GOD’S PLAN. Not works alone, NO. But works are still necessary. This is what the Gospel teaches.

 

[Pax]

Kevin and Moon in Christ,

Since it has been demonstrated that Abraham was, indeed, justified on more than one occasion, the ball is in your court. My efforts have not been refuted at all. I therefore ask two things:

1. Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that justification “only happens one time.”
2. Present a real, genuine, and well thought out refutation of the scriptural evidence and analysis that was presented.

Thank you and God bless.

 

[Globachio]

Kevin and Moon in Christ,

Since it has been demonstrated that Abraham was, indeed, justified on more than one occasion, the ball is in your court. My efforts have not been refuted at all. I therefore ask two things:

1. Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that justification “only happens one time.”
2. Present a real, genuine, and well thought out refutation of the scriptural evidence and analysis that was presented.

Thank you and God bless.

What utter nonsense. What rubbish you put forth. You never made any Scriptural assertion in order for anyone to refute. And to ask someone to point to a particular place in Scripture where it says “justification happens only one time” is tantamount to saying “show me where Scripture says ‘Trinity’” or “show me the verse where ‘transubstantiation’ is used.” Complete childishness on your part.

I didn’t come here to argue, or to end up in a “Scripture-throwing” war. I came in order to educate myself and, hopefully, to teach others. I was thinking of rejoining the Catholic church, but thanks to you and your ilk, that’s simply out of the question. With the likes of yourself and your stupidity, I’m now firmly resolved to remain Protestant. I’d simply forgotten how poorly RCs were with Scripture and theology. So thanks for reminding me.

Good by

Kevin

 

[Philthy]

On the contrary, I allow “saved” to mean exactly what it says: “saved”: delivered form the eternal consequence of sin(s), guarded from Divine judgment/condemnation. As the Scriptures clearly state. Paul writes:Eph 2:8-9 “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Hi MD :tiphat:

I think you add to the word saved. I think you see no distinction between being “saved” and going to Heaven. We discussed this before, but you still seem to be locked into your abbreviated notion of the Christian life.
We are saved by grace through faith exactly as described above. Nothing we can add to it. I agree with you whole heartedly there. But a very big question remains:

**Does being saved(ie born again) a year ago guarantee that you or I will go to Heaven(ie inherit the kingdom of Heaven) when we eventually die?

We need look no farther than this very same letter to the Ephesians to get the answer…chapter 5, beginning with verse 3:

**“Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones, no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.”

Notice the absence of the “faith alone” language when the topic turns to inheriting the kingdom of God? Paul warns the very same community of “saved believers” (quoted above) that certain behaviors jeopardize their inheritance in the kingdom of God (ie heaven). He delivers the same message in 1Cor 6 and Galatians 5. You continue to stumble on this point as well as the justification issue. In my opinion you do so because you start with the notion that salvation is an irrevocable, permanent and completed event at the first instant one comes to faith in Christ. Scripture reveals a slightly different reality: we must persevere in faith to cross the finish line and only then are we judged worthy (Heb 9:27). It can only be done by grace through faith with one difference: we can willfully choose to reject the grace that God offers us.

Blessings!

 

[brb3]

men consider pure, unadulterated grace (unmerited favor) repugnant. Hence, they must dilute it with works. But God accepts only ONE Man’s work for man’s salvation. And men are required to believe in it.Broken I was, made whole I am.

Moondweller …

Those 1st Century Judaizers desired to reject grace, in favor of relying on their 1st Century Mosaic Legalism ideas, … which went far beyond the Ten Commandments.

Ambrose and Catholics don’t espouse what you place on them. He/we are not Legalists. We accept ALL GRACE and ALL JUSTIFICATION / SANCTIFICATION as being rooted in the ONCE FOR ALL TIME, SACRIFICE OF CHRIST AT CALVARY. WE would never have the gall to think we could offer God a Life of GOOD WORKS as a substitute for His AMAZING GRACE, freely given to those who REPENT and desire DISCIPLESHIP and REBIRTH into Christ & Church via water baptism/confirmation.

We only do good works AFTER our Rebirth INTO CHRIST & Church … and only those which were prepared / predestined before the creation of the World for us. We only know GRACIOUS WORKS … only those desired of us and enabled for us by our LORD.

So … get off your Protesting Legalism highhorse … and get your facts right !! You put WORKS before GRACE … as the Catholic modus operandi. We reject your errant ‘opinion’ … and believe you’re riding ‘your horse’ arzbackwards or only looking in the rearview mirror. Turn around 180, to clearly see we acknowledge only God’s GRACE accomplishes our Initial Justification / Initial Salvation … before any ‘gracious’ works are ever thereafter desired of us by our Lord.

Recall the Catholic viewpoint on this. As we exist IN CHRIST by our Persevering Faith unto GRACE, … we are obligated to serve our Lord, as did the first 12 Church Apostles + Paul. Paul and the 12 acknowledged their ‘workmanship’ IN CHRIST … as part of their daily service to God, thru Christ. This is the ONLY Catholic Works we know.

Get a grip on reality !!! Go to Mass for a change, and learn the facts FIRSTHAND !!!

If you doubt me … Post a Poll on topic … and see what the majority of Catholics say…

 

[moondweller]

Kevin and Moon in Christ,

Since it has been demonstrated that Abraham was, indeed, justified on more than one occasion, the ball is in your court. My efforts have not been refuted at all. I therefore ask two things:

1. Show me anywhere in scripture where it says that justification “only happens one time.”
2. Present a real, genuine, and well thought out refutation of the scriptural evidence and analysis that was presented.

Thank you and God bless.

Pax, was it not pointed out to you that the ONLY time Abraham, in his lifetime, was justified before God was recorded in Gen. 15:6? Here it is:Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He (the Lord) reckoned (credited) it (his belief in Him) TO him as righteousness."Both James and Paul make reference to this ONE verse because there is no other place in the O.T. where it is stated that God RECKONED Abraham righteous based on Abraham’s personal belief in Him. Certainly not in Gen. 22.

Gen. 15:6 is the ONLY time in Abraham’s lifetime that it’s stated that God justified him. Hence, he was justified by FAITH only once. When God justifies by/through faith, the believer IS truly justified. Why? Because it’s gifted by God based on the, once for all, redemptive work of Christ on the cross: For Abraham that work was yet future. For us it’s a finished, past work.Rom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who (like Abraham) believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and (continually, present tense) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"And you know, Pax, that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29, i.e., impossible to retract). Hence, one need only be justified by God ONCE.

 

[brb3]

Hi MD

I think you add to the word saved. I think you see no distinction between being “saved” and going to Heaven. We discussed this before, but you still seem to be locked into your abbreviated notion of the Christian life.
We are saved by grace through faith exactly as described above. Nothing we can add to it. I agree with you whole heartedly there. But a very big question remains:

**Does being saved(ie born again) a year ago guarantee that you or I will go to Heaven(ie inherit the kingdom of Heaven) when we eventually die?

We need look no farther than this very same letter to the Ephesians to get the answer…chapter 5, beginning with verse 3:

**“Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones, no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient.”

Notice the absence of the “faith alone” language when the topic turns to inheriting the kingdom of God? Paul warns the very same community of “saved believers” (quoted above) that certain behaviors jeopardize their inheritance in the kingdom of God (ie heaven). He delivers the same message in 1Cor 6 and Galatians 5. You continue to stumble on this point as well as the justification issue. In my opinion you do so because you start with the notion that salvation is an irrevocable, permanent and completed event at the first instant one comes to faith in Christ. Scripture reveals a slightly different reality: we must persevere in faith to cross the finish line and only then are we judged worthy (Heb 9:27). It can only be done by grace through faith with one difference: we can willfully choose to reject the grace that God offers us.

Blessings!

Bravo !!!
This is the Catholic Party Line … not Moondweller’s ALIEN ‘theorys’ on Catholic Soterology/Christology.

 

[Pax]

What utter nonsense. What rubbish you put forth. You never made any Scriptural assertion in order for anyone to refute. And to ask someone to point to a particular place in Scripture where it says “justification happens only one time” is tantamount to saying “show me where Scripture says ‘Trinity’” or “show me the verse where ‘transubstantiation’ is used.” Complete childishness on your part.

I didn’t come here to argue, or to end up in a “Scripture-throwing” war. I came in order to educate myself and, hopefully, to teach others. I was thinking of rejoining the Catholic church, but thanks to you and your ilk, that’s simply out of the question. With the likes of yourself and your stupidity, I’m now firmly resolved to remain Protestant. I’d simply forgotten how poorly RCs were with Scripture and theology. So thanks for reminding me.

Good by

Kevin

Kevin in Christ,

I apologize for offending you…it was not intentional.

God bless

 

[Pax]

Pax, was it not pointed out to you that the ONLY time Abraham, in his lifetime, was justified before God was recorded in Gen. 15:6? Here it is:Gen 15:6 "Then he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He (the Lord) reckoned (credited) it (his belief in Him) TO him as righteousness."Both James and Paul make reference to this ONE verse because there is no other place in the O.T. where it is stated that God RECKONED Abraham righteous based on Abraham’s personal belief in Him. Certainly not in Gen. 22.

Gen. 15:6 is the ONLY time in Abraham’s lifetime that it’s stated that God justified him. Hence, he was justified by FAITH only once. When God justifies by/through faith, the believer IS truly justified. Why? Because it’s gifted by God based on the, once for all, redemptive work of Christ on the cross: For Abraham that work was yet future. For us it’s a finished, past work.Rom 3:22-24 "…even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who (like Abraham) believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned and (continually, present tense) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"And you know, Pax, that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Rom. 11:29, i.e., impossible to retract). Hence, one need only be justified by God ONCE.

Moon in Christ,

I still think that you are avoiding the areas of scripture that indicate that Abraham was justified on more than one occasion. That having been said, I do appreciate your response. I think we will simply have to disagree on that one.

God bless.

 

[Philthy]

What utter nonsense. What rubbish you put forth. You never made any Scriptural assertion in order for anyone to refute. And to ask someone to point to a particular place in Scripture where it says “justification happens only one time” is tantamount to saying “show me where Scripture says ‘Trinity’” or “show me the verse where ‘transubstantiation’ is used.” Complete childishness on your part.

I didn’t come here to argue, or to end up in a “Scripture-throwing” war. I came in order to educate myself and, hopefully, to teach others. I was thinking of rejoining the Catholic church, but thanks to you and your ilk, that’s simply out of the question. With the likes of yourself and your stupidity, I’m now firmly resolved to remain Protestant. I’d simply forgotten how poorly RCs were with Scripture and theology. So thanks for reminding me.

Good by

Kevin

Sometimes the truth hurts Kevin, but that’s no excuse for being rude. Whatever path you choose, the one you are on is one you clearly need to leave behind.

Blessings!

 

[Philthy]

"Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot."

Unfortunately they are not mutually exclusive

 

[brb3]

Scripture does not recognize belief as a work.

Are you sure about this ? What about work as a belief ? Don’t you see that Faith w/o [subsequent] works is DEAD ? … per St. James.

Lets consider Christ’s message to the Churches … in Revelation.

Rev. 2:1-6 “To the angel of the Church in Ephesus write: 'The WORDS OF HIM WHO HOLDS THE SEVEN STARS IN HIS RIGHT HAND, WHO WALKS AMONG THE SEVEN GOLDEN LAMPSTANDS. I KNOW YOUR WORKS, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear evil men but have tested those who CALL THEMSELVES APOSTLES BUT ARE NOT, AND FOUND THEM TO BE FALSE; I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name’s sake, and you have not grown weary. But, I have this against you, that YOU HAVE ABANDONED THE LOVE YOU HAD AT FIRST. REMEMBER THEN FROM WHAT YOU HAVE FALLEN, REPENT AND DO THE WORKS YOU DID AT FIRST. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampsand from its place, UNLESS YOU REPENT. Yet this you have, you HATE THE WORKS OF THE NICOLAITANS, WHICH I ALSO HATE. …”

Moondweller … note the key points of John.

1.) Some call themselves apostles, but are false prophets
2.) That the word ‘WORKS’ is mentioned 3 times … the Works God loves, and the ones he hates.
3.) That abandonment of First Love Discipleship to Christ ]… results in FALLING from Grace.
4.) Nevertheless, IF WE REPENT and DO THE WORKS [we once did] … we can recover and not be ‘cut off’ from Christ & Kingdom.
5.) The type WORKS Christ hates, and ones we are also to hate.

What were the Works of the Nicolaitans, Moondweller ?

A). They believed the LAW was no longer binding upon the Christian.
B). They taught FREEDOM of flesh and sin, teaching the deeds of the flesh had NO EFFECT UPON SALVATION STATUS … a OSAS heresy, that disregarded the Big 10 Laws of God]. See Paul on this topic in Romans 6:1-2

Do you not see that Christ is teaching the Churches that once we are reborn by grace thru faith … NOW OUR WORKS BECOME ESSENTIAL !!! This is what the Catholic Church and ALL Catholics will attest to. Once we are made participants IN CHRIST by GRACE … we now practice Lordship Salvation, and honor Christ by being LAW KEEPERS and his ‘workmanship’. Yet, if we turn back or ‘fall from grace’ as did the Nicolaitans … we must REPENT, and be RESTORED to GRACE.

Is that not a second Justification event ? Does not John teach that Christ gave him this Revelation, and His Words are FAITHFUL AND TRUE ?

 

[brb3]

On the contrary, I allow “saved” to mean exactly what it says: “saved”: delivered form the eternal consequence of sin(s), guarded from Divine judgment/condemnation.
If salvation can be lost then, truly, the word is meaningless.

St Paul disagree’s with your Nicolaitan ideas of OSAS. He teaches PERSEVERANCE is essential to retention of a ‘final’ SALVATION, to those who have been reconciled to God via Christ’s death.

Colossians 1:21-23 And you, WHO ONCE WERE ESTRANGED AND HOSTILE IN MIND, DOING EVIL DEEDS, HE HAS NOW RECONCILED IN HIS BODY OF FLESH BY HIS DEATH, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, STABLE AND STEADFAST, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I PAUL BECAME A MINISTER.

So, yes, we agree with you that YOUR understanding of OSAS SALVATION is MEANINGLESS … unless you come to deny it, and accept Paul’s correct teaching of.

 

[moondweller]

St Paul disagree’s with your Nicolaitan ideas of OSAS. He teaches PERSEVERANCE is essential to retention of a ‘final’ SALVATION, to those who have been reconciled to God via Christ’s death.

Show me where “final salvation” is mentioned in the Scriptures. If there’s a “final” salvation then it’s the only salvation. IOW, “saved” in this present life is rendered meaningless.

Colossians 1:21-23 And you, WHO ONCE WERE ESTRANGED AND HOSTILE IN MIND, DOING EVIL DEEDS, HE HAS NOW RECONCILED IN HIS BODY OF FLESH BY HIS DEATH, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, PROVIDED THAT YOU CONTINUE IN THE FAITH, STABLE AND STEADFAST, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, and of which I PAUL BECAME A MINISTER.

Take note of what I underlined in the passage you provided. It might help you to understand the context.

By seeking to be saved by works one has “shifted from the hope of the gospel which he had heard and has been preached.” Just like those in Galatia who were “severed from Christ” and “fell from grace” because they rejected the gospel of grace that was presented to them and sought rather a justification by works instead. Christ is of no value to such men.

So, yes, we agree with you that YOUR understanding of OSAS SALVATION is MEANINGLESS … unless you come to deny it, and accept Paul’s correct teaching of.

Unless one is OSAS the word “saved” is utterly meaningless. That’s why you add your own extrabiblical word “final” to it. You must, since you can’t stop working for it until your dying day. And then you only “hope so.”

 

[moondweller]

Hi MD :tiphat:

I think you add to the word saved. I think you see no distinction between being “saved” and going to Heaven.You present a false dichotomy.

"Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones, no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient."This is an admonition to “holy ones.” “Holy ones” are heaven bound. In fact, their citizenship is heaven (Phil. 3:20-21).

Paul writes to the Corinthians:1 Cor 6:9-11 “*Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor {the} covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”

"Such were some of you; BUT you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God*."IOW, believers are made “holy ones” (saints) through Christ, washed by His blood, sanctified in Him, justified in His name through faith in Him. Such are the heaven-bound SAVED. Yup, they’re actually “saved.”