Faith, Imagination and Feelings

[BarbaraTherese]

I did post this article a few months ago, but have read a couple of posts where people seem to be struggling with Faith, which could in fact be a struggle rather with their feelings and/or imagination - and so I decided to post the article again.

ronrolheiser.com/columnarchive/archive_display.php?rec_id=374

Imagine yourself lying in bed some night: You have just had a very good time of prayer and are flooded with feelings and images about God. You have strong, clear feelings that God exists. On that particular evening you have no faith doubts; you can feel the existence of God.

Now, imagine another night, a darker one. You wake up from a fitful sleep and are overwhelmed by the sense that you don’t believe in God. You try to convince yourself that you still believe, but you cannot. Every attempt to imagine that God exists and to feel his presence comes up empty. You feel an overwhelming emptiness inside because of that feeling. Try as you like, you cannot shake the feeling that you no longer believe. Try as you like, you can no longer regain the solid ground on which you once stood. Try as you like, you can no longer make yourself feel the existence of God.

Does this mean that on one of these nights you have a strong faith and on the other you have a weak one?..to read entire text go to above link…

 

[TOP]

I didn’t have to read the link above. I fight nightly still for 2 or 3 hours. But because it is common place now, I know it always passes. Thanks for the encouragment, Tim

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I didn’t have to read the link above. I fight nightly still for 2 or 3 hours. But because it is common place now, I know it always passes. Thanks for the encouragment, Tim

… … most often a night and day struggle for me too, Tim. One does learn that it will pass…truly “all things pass, God alone suffices” (St. Paul - I think! )…

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Belief and faith are two different things

Belief is something we choose.

Faith is a gift given to us from God.

Those who have faith, don’t struggle with belief.

They struggle with dryness and doubts about things(belief), but never lose faith, because it wasn’t something they achieved for themselves in the first place.

Jim

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting Jim:

Those who have faith, don’t struggle with belief.

They struggle with dryness and doubts about things(belief)

… …seems to be contradictory, Jim? Over and above the contradiction, I think the meaning of the article was clear as a human experience.
Faith is that Gift of God that enables/facilitates belief but the article did not mean to be a strictly theological proclomation … rather a quite common, I should think, human experience. Faith itself can be under attack which is the Dark Night, and the essence of the Dark Night I think is that Faith is never lost but clung onto against all odds, struggles and temptations to disbelieve.

Blessings - Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

I think I may have grasped your meaning, Jim. The only way I can describe it is by an example: I believe for example God is Merciful and Loving, but my feelings may be insisting otherwise - I feel that rather He is judgemental and condemning and that I am not loved at all - hence I am struggling actually with my own doubts and dryness (inability to pray or think with the support of consolations and supportive feelings)…but I work against what I am feeling (doubts and dryness) and continue to cling to that He is indeed a Merciful and Loving God and indeed Merciful and Loving of me. What enables me to cling to the Truth of God (Loving and Merciful) is Faith.
Does that illustrate your meaning? Both do involve belief. What enables/facilitates me to cling to the Real and Actual Truth of God is the Gift of Faith and it is this Gift that discerns what is the Actual Truth and against all and any ‘comers’ including my own feelings and accompanying thoughts. It could be said it is what I know rather than what I believe and it is a ‘pure’ knowledge that does not need the support of the ‘passions’ (feelings). This does take things a little beyond the article, and that is completely ok and valid, while I did not anticipate at all going beyond the article…and my problem entirely

Blessings and regards…Barb

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Quoting Jim:

… …seems to be contradictory, Jim? Over and above the contradiction, I think the meaning of the article was clear as a human experience.
Faith is that Gift of God that enables/facilitates belief but the article did not mean to be a strictly theological proclomation … rather a quite common, I should think, human experience. Faith itself can be under attack which is the Dark Night, and the essence of the Dark Night I think is that Faith is never lost but clung onto against all odds, struggles and temptations to disbelieve.

Blessings - Barb

I can see why my statement was contradictory. I meant to say, we struggle with faith, i.e. the dark night etc.

You explained it well.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I think I may have grasped your meaning, Jim. The only way I can describe it is by an example: I believe for example God is Merciful and Loving, but my feelings may be insisting otherwise - I feel that rather He is judgemental and condemning and that I am not loved at all - hence I am struggling actually with my own doubts and dryness (inability to pray or think with the support of consolations and supportive feelings)…but I work against what I am feeling (doubts and dryness) and continue to cling to that He is indeed a Merciful and Loving God and indeed Merciful and Loving of me. What enables me to cling to the Truth of God (Loving and Merciful) is Faith.
Does that illustrate your meaning? Both do involve belief. What enables/facilitates me to cling to the Real and Actual Truth of God is the Gift of Faith and it is this Gift that discerns what is the Actual Truth and against all and any ‘comers’ including my own feelings and accompanying thoughts. It could be said it is what I know rather than what I believe and it is a ‘pure’ knowledge that does not need the support of the ‘passions’ (feelings). This does take things a little beyond the article, and that is completely ok and valid, while I did not anticipate at all going beyond the article…and my problem entirely

Blessings and regards…Barb

Yes!

The dryness is not so much a lack of faith, but rather, a growth in faith. The Lord is teaching us to have faith, despite not receiving consolations from Him. It is in these periods of dryness, that we actually grow the most. We no longer go out into the wilderness looking for consolations of God, through the preaching of words from dynamic preachers, from eloquently written books or witness to wondrous miracles. Our desire is totally for the Lord, as He is. We desire Him and Him alone, not because of what he gives us, but because we love Him as He loves us.

Jim

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Yes!

The dryness is not so much a lack of faith, but rather, a growth in faith. The Lord is teaching us to have faith, despite not receiving consolations from Him. It is in these periods of dryness, that we actually grow the most. We no longer go out into the wilderness looking for consolations of God, through the preaching of words from dynamic preachers, from eloquently written books or witness to wondrous miracles. Our desire is totally for the Lord, as He is. We desire Him and Him alone, not because of what he gives us, but because we love Him as He loves us.

Jim

Jim, I am totally relieved truly to read that “Yes” and indeed the rest of your post. When I first read your intital post and suggested there was a contradiction, I was puzzled as I came away as I always, always, respect highly your posts which to me are always absolutely spot on and with a real gift to say much with few words…and knowing a few Carmelites very well indeed over a span of very many years, I have come to sight saying much with very few words as a real Carmelite gift to my experience.

Hence when I came away from my Post suggesting a contradiction in your Post, I kept returning to your Post and pondering it, chewing it over and over…and then I thought I could insight what you meant, and hoped so…hence your “Yes” was a real relief to me:thumbsup:

I “get” what you are saying in your post above…consolations of any kind and a lack of any sort of aridity can be supportive of our Faith…when they are taken away our Faith must stand alone and without supports and in aridity of spirit…in fact sermons, spiritual books etc. etc. can loose all appeal as well as these too can be supports and consolations etc. As it says and I think in The Cloud of Unknowing…“seek the God of Consolations and not The Consolations of God”.

We no longer go out into the wilderness looking for consolations of God

The sentence “go out into the wilderness” leapt out at me in the way a word of sentence sometimes can as a very true, apt and beautiful term for seeking other than God Himself since it links me to Scripture and at a time when the wilderness has some focus in John the Baptist and Advent especially, and in the Old Testament readings too at this season…and I need to go away and ponder and chew onyour ‘wilderness’ sentence to let it sink and settle and ‘own’ it…thank you for that!
I have always considered Isiah to be the “soft prophet” but in the last two First Readings in the Office of Readings last night and the night before, I came away in a sweat almost at anything but “soft messages” …

Blessings Jim, and my regards…Barb

 

[JimR-OCDS]

BarbaraTherese

The sentence “go out into the wilderness” leapt out at me in the way a word of sentence sometimes can as a very true,

I was actually thinking about the Spiritual Canticle of St. John of the Cross. This poem touched me deeply, when I first was introduced to it, during my formation in my OCDS group.

First Stanza

Where have you hidden,

Beloved, and left me moaning?

you fled like the stag

after wounding me;

I went out calling you, but you were gone.

3rd Stanza

Seeking my Love

I will head for the mountains and for watersides,

I will not gather flowers,

nor fear wild beasts;

I will go beyond strong men and frontiers.

You can read the entire thing, along with commentary. This is the translation by Kieran Kavanaugh here;

karmel.at/ics/john/cn.html

 

[BarbaraTherese]

BarbaraTherese

I was actually thinking about the Spiritual Canticle of St. John of the Cross. This poem touched me deeply, when I first was introduced to it, during my formation in my OCDS group.

You can read the entire thing, along with commentary. This is the translation by Kieran Kavanaugh here;

karmel.at/ics/john/cn.html

Thanks, Jim. I haven’t read St. John for quite a few years now and will put the Spiritual Canticle onto my reading list.

Blessings and regards…Barb