Faith in works...

[Valtiel]

Okay so how do I respond to " you only do good works as a conviction of the holy spirit, it’s the good works that are the result of spiritual change"???

This was a responce to Ephesians 2:8-10

Which 8-9 was showing his point of faith and not works saves, until I included 10 which states; “For we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, that he has prepared for us”, his defense was the above quote…

some one help please…

 

[twiztedseraph]

Hello brother, having evangelical troubles are we? Anyway, goodworks are at the same time fruit of the grace of God, but also a result of our co-operation with God. We can choose not to be witnesses of God’s goodness in this world, or we can choose not to do so.

God gives us all grace, all things necessary to attain salvation. All thats left is our co-operation.

 

[Pax]

Valtiel,

Take another look at the Romans 10:9 thread. I’ve posted a number of things on that thread that may be of some help.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

Okay so how do I respond to " you only do good works as a conviction of the holy spirit, it’s the good works that are the result of spiritual change"???

Ummm, I’m slightly confused as to what your friend is trying to say?

If this is anywhere near to helpful, anyone who does a good deed is working FOR God’s plan, whether they know it or not. Like if an athiest donates money to a homeless shelter, that’s still clothing and feeding God through “the least of these, My children”, despite the fact that the athiest doesn’t accept God.

And since God is all goodness, you could argue that He’s the one who puts the good ideas in your head while the devil is the one that puts the bad ones in.

 

[Pax]

Valtiel,

This what I said to EA_Man about Eph 2:8-10 on the Romans 10:9 thread.

EA_Man,

You are missing something quite profound in Eph. 2:8-10. Please note that the verses speak of works two different times. The first time the word occurs, Paul is telling us that there is nothing that we can do to come into a state of justification before God. It is pure gift and by the grace of God. In the second instance, we notice that the works that we are to do after being justified are not merely the by-product of grace received. Instead the works we are to do were prepared and ordained by God beforehand. In other words the works we are to do are established even before we are justified. These works are not optional. These works are by grace and we are, therefore, nothing less than “God’s workmanship.” This is more than simply a by-product of grace. This aspect of being “God’s workmanship” encompasses both faith and works in the action of justification. If you separate them you have something other than what God intended.

This set of verses is intimately tied and related to James 2:24. Both Paul and James teach a living faith as opposed to a dead faith. In Galatians 5:6 Paul sums it all up quite beautifully by saying, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.” In Galatians 6:15-16 the apostle also says, “For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. Peace and mercy be upon all who walk by this rule, upon the Israel of God.” Again, in 1 Cor 7:19, Paul says, “For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.”

I have supplied these quotes in conjunction with Eph 2:8-10 because Paul’s beef with the issue of works is related to the Judaizers. Paul never intends anyone to believe that the moral law is not essential to salvation. He argues, as do all of the apostles, that everything is by grace. Even our works are totally by grace and they are nothing less than the work of the Father’s hands in our hearts, minds, souls, and bodies. Just as our initial justification is a gift and by grace, so also are all of the works that were prepared before hand. Faith and works are both by grace and they are inseparable.

Paul even says that faith is a work[1Thess 1:3]. Jesus says that faith is a work[John 6:27-28] There is another place in scripture where we learn the same thing. In John’s vision in the book of Revelation, Jesus warns members of the church at Ephesus that they might be destroyed if they do not repent and return to the love they once had. This is very clear in Rev 2:4-5 where Jesus says, “But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.” Then again just before addressing the transgressions of the church at Thyatira, Jesus says in Rev 2:19 that, “I know your works, your love and faith and service and patient endurance, and that your latter works exceed the first.” These verses are significant in two ways. They show the necessity of love in the plan of salvation, and they show that both love and faith are referred to as works. We are saved by faith and works and not by faith alone.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Valtiel:

Okay so how do I respond to " you only do good works as a conviction of the holy spirit, it’s the good works that are the result of spiritual change"???

This was a responce to Ephesians 2:8-10

Which 8-9 was showing his point of faith and not works saves, until I included 10 which states; “For we are created in Christ Jesus for good works, that he has prepared for us”, his defense was the above quote…

some one help please…

There are amillion threads about this, a few very recent.

I’d recommend going here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=65373

There’s tons of good stuff there (and some Protestant stuff too lol). I wrote up two huge treatments, one over #52-55, and one over 45-47, I think. The 52-55 is a complete look at Romans 2-4, and the 45-47 is a big long analysis of how faith and works are related.

Personally, to counter the “works are a result of faith” thing, I always prefer James 2:22 - “You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.”

This is good because it clearly says faith and works were both active and working in a partnership. If works were simply evidence of faith, they could not also be working together with the faith, unless we want to get into some weird sortof recursive salvation which would be so problematic it’s ridiculous.

 

[Valtiel]

I need something problematic about believing that works are a by product of faith more specifically because he’s going to get confused, just like when I told him what pax told to EA man, he siad; “that doesn’t make sense, so good ordains good works before hand, how does that ave anything to do with works in salvation” I tried to explain it more, that it was not what he thought it was the works that people would individually throughout their lives but it’s refering to to christs works on so many levels, he’s still not buying it…

 

[Pax]

Valtiel,

Please be advised that your friend may not “buy it” no matter what you tell him. You are currently planting seeds. Pray and let the Holy Spirit do the heavy lifting.

Since this person does not appreciate the idea of works as part of justification try having him “explain” exegetically, linguistically, and logically why what you have given him so far is not true. Make sure that he tackles the scriptural passages head on, and that he does not try to dodge them by simply quoting other verses.

Here is another set of passages that he will need to digest and then explain.

Rev 2:7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. **To him who conquers ** I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

Rev 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’

Rev 2:17 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. **To him who conquers ** I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.’

Rev 2:26-29 **He who conquers ** and who keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over the nations, and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received power from my Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:4-5 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. **He who conquers ** shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

Rev 3:11-13 I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown. He who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God; never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 3:21-22 He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Rev 12:11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

Rev 21: 7-8 **He who conquers ** shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."

Finally, I would suggest that you relentlessly hammer home the fact that everything is by God’s grace and that God’s grace goes out in power. In this regard refer him to:

Isaiah 55:11
so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

2 Cor 3:5-6
Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, who has made us competent…

1 Cor 10:13
God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.

Eph 3:16
I pray that, according to the riches of his glory, he may grant that you may be strengthened in your inner being with power through his Spirit,

Eph 3:20
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine,

2 Tim 1:7
for God did not give us a spirit of cowardice, but rather a spirit of power and of love and of self-discipline.

2 Tim 3:2- 5
For people will be lovers of themselves, … lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to the outward form of godliness but denying its power.

John 15:5
I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

There is still more that can be said, but this is enough to start with. Keep us posted on how things are going, but remember that it is the Holy Spirit that does the heavy lifting.