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DPMartin
Guest
Why is it that the Living God requires, Faith, not intellect?
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Ultima_Ratio
Guest
Faith is of the intellect. The theological virtue of faith perfects the intellect, just as the theological virtue of charity perfects the will.
The purpose of supernatural faith is to help us to believe the truths that God has revealed. One of the effects of supernatural faith is that the truths of Catholicism will strike a person as “common sense”. Just as some natural truths are “obvious” to us, and strike us as being “common sense”, in like manner the dogmas of the Church will strike a person with a strong faith as “common sense”. It is an intellectual virtue that assists us in believing the truths that God has revealed. It makes believing easy. But to gain a strong faith (which is very rare these days) we must often for it.
Pray often throughout the day: “God, please grant me the grace of greater faith, and teach me to trust you more”.
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Moscati
Guest
I don’t think He does. Faith and reason generally go together.
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“When Christian faith is authentic, it does not diminish freedom and human reason; so, why should faith and reason fear one another if the best way for them to express themselves is by meeting and entering into dialogue? Faith presupposes reason and perfects it, and reason, enlightened by faith, finds the strength to rise to knowledge of God and spiritual realities. Human reason loses nothing by opening itself to the content of faith, which, indeed, requires its free and conscious adherence.” -Pope Benedict, On the Faith-Reason Synthesis
zenit.org/article-18765?l=english
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Of course, there are some, who through no fault of their own cannot reason to the extent that others can (the mentally handicapped, children, those with no education, etc), but often still have great faith.
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“When Christian faith is authentic, it does not diminish freedom and human reason; so, why should faith and reason fear one another if the best way for them to express themselves is by meeting and entering into dialogue? Faith presupposes reason and perfects it, and reason, enlightened by faith, finds the strength to rise to knowledge of God and spiritual realities. Human reason loses nothing by opening itself to the content of faith, which, indeed, requires its free and conscious adherence.” -Pope Benedict, On the Faith-Reason Synthesis
zenit.org/article-18765?l=english
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Of course, there are some, who through no fault of their own cannot reason to the extent that others can (the mentally handicapped, children, those with no education, etc), but often still have great faith.
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DPMartin
Guest
Ultima Ratio
thanks for the reply
What about what a man sees or hears? Are you saying that if I be dumber then you are, that I may not have the Catholic sense? That seems to be, what is required, according to your posting.
Would that be saying that without a certain measure of predetermined intellect, then one would be of no use to the “Catholic Faith”?
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DPMartin
Guest
Moscati
thanks for the reply
If the Lord rains down His Spiritual wealth from heaven, then what reason do you need but His Word?
Does a man rise to the knowledge of God? Or is the fear of the Lord God, the being of Knowledge? And what measure of intellect is required to fear the Lord your God?
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Other_Eric
Guest
Faith cannot be “of” the intellect. An impressive intellect or a deficient one does not necessarily correspond to a similar degree of Faith. Therefore, Faith is separate and distinct from the intellect.
These two faculties are created to work in concert with each other, yet each suffers in the absence of the other. Intellect without Faith is cold and heartless. Faith without intellect is blind.
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DPMartin
Guest
Other Eric
Though your point about Faith is warranted, one must understand that anything of one’s own mind returns to the ground but the mind of Christ is forever. Note: Moses specifically made sure that it was understood that what he was telling them was not of his own mind (which was verified by God’s presence with him).
on my previous posting it should have said beginning not being:
correction:
Does a man rise to the knowledge of God? Or is the fear of the Lord God, the beginning of knowledge?
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Think_About_It
Guest
Because an intellect, unencumbered by personal fantasies and religious wishes, denies God at every turn. Our intellect is mostly shaped by our senses, to which God never appeals, and the way that they interact with our environment, from which God is apparently absent. The idea of God transcends our intellect, the only thing we have to assess reality and the world around us.
DPMartin, I loved what you said about “What about what a man sees or hears? Are you saying that if I be dumber then you are, that I may not have the Catholic sense?”
Our intellect is obviously predetermined (some people are born retarded, some average, some geniuses - this probably doesn’t require a proof). If the only means by which we can come to understand God is through our intellects, and we don’t, then we can’t be held accountable for refusing to believe with our intellects what God has not given our intellects to believe. The whole requirement to believe falls to pieces when we do not have the mental faculties to do so (not that I think our faculties lead us into this kind of conclusion anyway - if there wasn’t already a long and superstitious tradition of believing in God, I should be very surprised if any would develop in the modern era).
And of course, believing anything on faith alone is pointless and rediculous. There are an infinite number of appeals to faith:
“I have a cannibalistic leprechaun chained up in my basement, but you can’t see him”
“Then why should I believe you”
“Faith…”
“But then anybody can tell me to believe on faith - that’s a poor means of determining the veracity of something”
DPMartin, I loved what you said about “What about what a man sees or hears? Are you saying that if I be dumber then you are, that I may not have the Catholic sense?”
Our intellect is obviously predetermined (some people are born retarded, some average, some geniuses - this probably doesn’t require a proof). If the only means by which we can come to understand God is through our intellects, and we don’t, then we can’t be held accountable for refusing to believe with our intellects what God has not given our intellects to believe. The whole requirement to believe falls to pieces when we do not have the mental faculties to do so (not that I think our faculties lead us into this kind of conclusion anyway - if there wasn’t already a long and superstitious tradition of believing in God, I should be very surprised if any would develop in the modern era).
And of course, believing anything on faith alone is pointless and rediculous. There are an infinite number of appeals to faith:
“I have a cannibalistic leprechaun chained up in my basement, but you can’t see him”
“Then why should I believe you”
“Faith…”
“But then anybody can tell me to believe on faith - that’s a poor means of determining the veracity of something”
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DPMartin
Guest
Think About It
thanks for the reply
Though in the sense you have mentioned, it wasn’t what I meant. (in the context of, Ears to hear and eyes to see) Sorry, I wasn’t taking into consideration this view. But your point is very well taken. In your posting it could be presumed:
How can you know what you don’t know? Or maybe better said,; if you don’t experience that something is, how can you know that it is? I mean: know, that you know, that you know.
On one hand I agree, it is truly a valid point, but on the other hand (of course there’s a but you know). As you say, it is Trust but are you saying that your being told to trust, “trust”, or are you being told to trust the Word of God? (In Keeping with the context on, Faith in God)
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Other_Eric
Guest
I can accept that. Both intellect and Faith, when divorced from God, become twisted and evil. But both intellect and Faith are gifts of God. To accept one and reject the other is to distance the thing accepted from God and thereby slip into error.
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DPMartin
Guest
Other Eric
thanks for the reply
No question there, surly we understand that soul, heart , mind and strength are for to Love Him with. So then it would be His Knowledge His Wisdom, and His Understanding that we should seek to receive, for it is of Him.
Therefore the requirement of measure of intellect like the strength of an athlete would be not necessary, for one does not need to be a athlete to make what one’s strength is available unto the Lord to love Him.
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Think_About_It
Guest
Yes, and to elaborate on that point, we know that there is a physical world (or at least, it is a good assumption). In order to find God in the world, we must find a way that He is distinct from the world, otherwise what we call God can be called anything. If an experience of God doesn’t differ from what we would ordinarily experience in life, why even suppose there is one? For instance, I can have a transcendant experience and say “Oh, it was glorb.” Another person may call it God, or whatever. But these feelings are not distinct from what we would expect anyway. What we call God are not evidences, but attributions. Case in point, Jesus calls mental illness demons. We know that mental illnesses aren’t demons, but Jesus mistakenly made that attribution.
I don’t know that there is a difference. The Word of God tells us to trust (be assured of) those hoped-for things (a.k.a., faith - or trust). We also must trust that such a promise is valid. Hence, we are being told to trust trust.
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DPMartin
Guest
Think About It
thanks for the reply
Well if I may there would be a few question on that. If there be a God as you say in your view, why would He have to be in the world? Now there is a destination on world, world originally means in the English, human existence but I am sure you must mean just physical or universe but yes then again you could say that human existence is a part of the universe but again, world means human existence so galaxies away are not part of human existence Or experience (as far as we know)
So if one can not perceive that He is, know that you know, if He is in the universe then why don’t you know, or if even in the world. There is a lot of people that say He is. That is not proof for sure, but one would think it would at least rase an eye brow an consider if it be true. What if only a few really knew or even just one out of all of human history? Or would it take the opinion of the many? Or none of the above?
But you do know that just because one does not know some thing is, is not proof that it is not. Nor can one honestly say that nobody can know, because one does not.
Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding in what was referred to as mental illness, it was reffed to as lunatick (old English ) found in (Mt:4:24
and devils or demons were distinct from that. So mental illness in those days was mental illness and devils were devils. In one case He , Jesus asked them what there name was, they told Him, so they devils or demons attributed themselves to be demons. And in most cases when confronted with demons making there own presence known in the host, they would proclaim Him, Jesus as Son of God. (Just so you know)Hope this explains my friend.
If one is born into the flesh, world , human existence. In most cases one has eyes of flesh to see what flesh can see and one has ears of flesh to hear what flesh can hear. But if one is born of Spirit namely (Holy Spirit) then one has ears of Spirit to hear what the Spirit can hear and eyes of the Spirit that see what the Spirit can see hence my earlier reference to (Ears to hear and eyes to see). This does not mean one goes wako or something like that, but for example one begins to develop discernment of whether some thing is horse dump or not, or of Truth, is common. What is of flesh is flesh and what is of Spirit is Spirit. And flesh does not perceive Spirit.
Therefore when we are to Trust the Word of God it is because we know, that we know, that we know the Word of God in God’s Holy Spirit, revealed in the flesh to the world as Jesus Christ the Word of God. Therefore we are not Trusting what we don’t know.
enjoyed very much, Think About It.
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Think_About_It
Guest
Hmm?
I do raise an eyebrow - I did for years when I converted, but didn’t find anything close to evidence for faith.
Of course. I’m not saying “no proof;” I’m saying “no evidence.” To go on anything but evidence is absurd. All I really mean by evidence is “something that is made clear or evident; something supported.” Any requirment of faith (to which there are endless appeals) stands directly in the way of knowing something by clearity; it’s more like saying you know something you simply believe. And the reasons for claiming belief in God are far greater than evidentiary reasons for believing in God.
A distinction I’m sure you would only make if you believed in demons. Even in this modern era, even despite what you may believe is accurate in the bible, you wouldn’t think someone demon possessed, but rather psychologically maladjusted, if you saw a boy acting as the one from whom jesus had cast the devils. If a boy was acting crazy and knashing his teeth, falling into pits of fire, you’d do what everybody does and call a shrink, not an exorcist.Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding in what was referred to as mental illness, it was reffed to as lunatick (old English ) found in (Mt:4:24
But how do spirit-ears and spirit-eyes hear and see? This sounds silly to me. We’ve now explained why God, who we cannot sense, is still in fact there but we can’t sense him because of yet another unexplainable addition: the spirit - our sense of understanding things by spirit. People believe in God only based on intellectual things (it either appeals or doesn’t appeal to a person’s intellect or emotion). You couldn’t tell me how a spirit knows things, nor why I should believe such a contraption interacts with our knowing. We have, in essence, invented a spirit of knowing to make up for what clearly we cannot experience in any sensual way. And like faith, it has an infinite number of appeals:
“I believe there is a tea cup orbiting saturn”
“you can’t possibly know that”
“not in the flesh, no, but by spirit ears and eyes”
“But you can make that appeal for anything that I don’t know, that you claim to”
etc…
If Jesus is our only connection to God in the flesh, then He ought to’ve done a better job showing his divine majesty. It seems there are copycats both in the history leading up to, and around the time Jesus was preaching that were also casting out demons, preforming miracles, and being born of virgin women. They seem like very crude (almost bronze-age
) ideas of what would establish divinity, but then, that may be a matter of opinion.
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DPMartin
Guest
Think About It
thanks for the reply
As far proof or evidence goes, I could point out old documents now know as Old Testament of the Bible in countless places were Jesus has fulfilled that which was to be done. Israel has alone history of what their God said to them and then He did it. They knowing they did not do it without Him. And testified to that by their documented witness. Hence so the Apostles did the same as they witnessed the fulfillment thereof. But again that is not necessarily proof, though it is evidence. What was written lone before, has come true.
That may be you, my blessed friend, but not I. I can’t speak for you, nor can you speak for me.
As it has been said: Jesus is the Way, why should there be any other, isn’t there one correct Truth? Not flawed or hampered in any way with the views of man. Consider one may see the souse of light, such as the sun for example, from where one is, and another might see the same source of light from where they are but it is the same source of light. Therefore Jesus is the Light of men. Not hampered by mens view but correct in all ways according God’s view of man that God made. Hence man is made to be, in the Presence of God. And Jesus is the Way to be in God the Father’s Presence by the Power of His Holy Spirit.
Therefore God’s Choice for all mankind, mankind’s maker, God the Almighty. Hence one repents from his own choice for himself, and accepts God’s Choice for him, to be in God’s Presence. Therefore Jesus being the only Way.
There are many gods made by man, whether they be of man’s imaginations and desires, or objects of earth or sky, or even man himself. But there is only One God that has made man. The God of Truth. So He made one man “The Son of Man to reestablish, restore the Presence of the Truth in the word (human existence). The proof the evidence is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That He is and lives forever. Note publically crucified, but revealed (as I head some one point out) only to loving eyes, loving hands, and loving hearts.
In respect to there is a God, a Living God, then one must know that a Living God is aware of all that He has made. Therefore the principle thing is, you yourself have to ask Him for that which is of Him. Then you Know when you recieve and are recieved of Him.
thanks for the reply
If you love the Truth, then you and the Almighty have something in common already, for the Truth is His Word, that is of Him that is, and gives Life. Which He Loves. And only the Truth of God could give Life.
As far proof or evidence goes, I could point out old documents now know as Old Testament of the Bible in countless places were Jesus has fulfilled that which was to be done. Israel has alone history of what their God said to them and then He did it. They knowing they did not do it without Him. And testified to that by their documented witness. Hence so the Apostles did the same as they witnessed the fulfillment thereof. But again that is not necessarily proof, though it is evidence. What was written lone before, has come true.
Though in the flesh yes, but in the Spirit, God’s Holy Presence you would be incorrect.
That may be you, my blessed friend, but not I. I can’t speak for you, nor can you speak for me.
As it has been said: Jesus is the Way, why should there be any other, isn’t there one correct Truth? Not flawed or hampered in any way with the views of man. Consider one may see the souse of light, such as the sun for example, from where one is, and another might see the same source of light from where they are but it is the same source of light. Therefore Jesus is the Light of men. Not hampered by mens view but correct in all ways according God’s view of man that God made. Hence man is made to be, in the Presence of God. And Jesus is the Way to be in God the Father’s Presence by the Power of His Holy Spirit.
Therefore God’s Choice for all mankind, mankind’s maker, God the Almighty. Hence one repents from his own choice for himself, and accepts God’s Choice for him, to be in God’s Presence. Therefore Jesus being the only Way.
.If Jesus is our only connection to God in the flesh, then He ought to’ve done a better job showing his divine majesty. It seems there are copycats both in the history leading up to, and around the time Jesus was preaching that were also casting out demons, preforming miracles, and being born of virgin women. They seem like very crude (almost bronze-age
There are many gods made by man, whether they be of man’s imaginations and desires, or objects of earth or sky, or even man himself. But there is only One God that has made man. The God of Truth. So He made one man “The Son of Man to reestablish, restore the Presence of the Truth in the word (human existence). The proof the evidence is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. That He is and lives forever. Note publically crucified, but revealed (as I head some one point out) only to loving eyes, loving hands, and loving hearts.
In respect to there is a God, a Living God, then one must know that a Living God is aware of all that He has made. Therefore the principle thing is, you yourself have to ask Him for that which is of Him. Then you Know when you recieve and are recieved of Him.
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Moscati
Guest
If the Lord rains down His spiritual wealth from heaven (including the intellect, the ability to love others, beauty in the created world, etc), why would one NOT partake of His gifts?
To whom much is given (i.e. the ability to reason), of him much is required. It’s a requirement according to one’s ability to use it, which God gives to each person according to His own will.
It’s not that a measure of intellect is required to fear the Lord–it’s that the exercise of the intellect is the proper response to recognizing that Lord, and it use can help us to do so.
D
DPMartin
Guest
Moscati
thanks for the reply
The wicked love there own, and many love money more then anything.
Beauty in the created world is not Spiritual no matter how much you might admire it, or how nice it makes you feel, though yes God made it, so that you may enjoy it, but it’s not Spiritual. Again the wicked enjoy and admire the beauty in the created world.
How much intellect did it take for the Israelite to shake in their boots when the Lord their God spoke to them the Ten Commandments? (Ex:20)
how much intellect does it take for the mountains to shake or melt of Him. How much intellect did it take for the storm to stop when the Lord Jesus told it to? Storms don’t have brains nor do mountains.
thanks for the reply
Brains are not Spiritual no matter how you slice it. There are many very intelligent, capable thinkers that do not believe in a God.
The wicked love there own, and many love money more then anything.
Beauty in the created world is not Spiritual no matter how much you might admire it, or how nice it makes you feel, though yes God made it, so that you may enjoy it, but it’s not Spiritual. Again the wicked enjoy and admire the beauty in the created world.
The “(i.e. the ability to reason)” is your addition to what the Lord has said, not what the Lord has said. How much of the Lord your God, that is of Him do you have, or have received? If it is much, then how much is required of you? For how can you do the work of the Lord, if you have not that which He has, to do it?
Or is it that the fear of the Lord, is just that, fear of the Lord. And if it be not of His Wisdom or His Knowledge or His Understanding, how could it be respected to be intellect at all before the Lord?
How much intellect did it take for the Israelite to shake in their boots when the Lord their God spoke to them the Ten Commandments? (Ex:20)
how much intellect does it take for the mountains to shake or melt of Him. How much intellect did it take for the storm to stop when the Lord Jesus told it to? Storms don’t have brains nor do mountains.
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Think_About_It
Guest
You’re waxing seriously dogmatic. I hear what you’re saying, but they’re just words. You haven’t given me a very clear point-to-point correspondence with reality. If there is a line of reasoning for how our intellects can know things outside the flesh and why we should believe that that’s possible, I will surely hear it. But otherwise, it becomes too difficult to decode; you’re using dogma to support dogma to support dogma. Give it to me in plain language, doc.
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DPMartin
Guest
Think About It
thanks for the reply
You are absolutely correct in that respect. It is just words. But what can one do on a forum or in a book or on paper but write words. Hopefully in a fashion that can be understood. But when it comes to reason, one can only point to the reason, which is Jesus Christ,God’s Word revealed in the flesh. God the Father’s reason for mankind. Who is entrusted by God, to receive all things. Therefore the reason for all things. Jesus is the Word of God in God’s Presence. And everything is of God’s Word made by His Word therefore God’s Wisdom Knowledge and Understanding, including and not without God’s Love Faith and Hope, God’s Mercy Righteousness and Judgment, God’s Truth, Way and Life, which is in Jesus Christ clearly, purely expressed, and fulfilled, to God the Father’s satisfaction, in the flesh, and blood of the Son of Man, for man’s sake.
If you treasure the things of man, or the world, or of earthen things, then you seek out and conform yourself to succeed in the acquisition of such things. But if you treasure the things of God, the things of the Kingdom of Heaven then you would do the same. Which is available to any living soul, in the Name of Jesus Christ.
And yes there are those who seek to receive of the world, for themselves, in His Name. But there are those who seek to receive of Him and Give of Him that which they received of Him in His Name.
I can’t reveal God my friend, God reveals Himself to who ever Loves Him or seeks Him. And again if you don’t ask Him then don’t expect to receive of Him. For it’s only of Him can one receive of Him, and Not through written words. Then one comes know the Living God not just a distant God that is talked about, or written about.
In respect to what ever strengths one is born in to the word with, sure they are to be given in service of the Lord as some here have tried to express, but it is of God, in the Presence of God, is the things of God done. Therefore shouldn’t it be to the Gory of God’s Reason for man? Jesus Christ, the Word of God the Light of men. Or should it be to the glory of, or according to, man’s ability to reason?
Certainly not sure that works for you, but in the end, it’s what works for God’s purpose, not our’s.
M
Moscati
Guest
"Brains are not Spiritual no matter how you slice it. There are many very intelligent, capable thinkers that do not believe in a God.
The wicked love there own, and many love money more then anything.
Beauty in the created world is not Spiritual no matter how much you might admire it, or how nice it makes you feel, though yes God made it, so that you may enjoy it, but it’s not Spiritual. Again the wicked enjoy and admire the beauty in the created world."
I don’t agree. If the Creator made the natural world (including brains), and called it good, then it has spiritual significance. I think the beauty of the our world is a sacramental (based on the Psalms). The wicked may admire the created world, and in doing so, be brought closer to its Creator. They may not, but then again they may.
“The “(i.e. the ability to reason)” is your addition to what the Lord has said, not what the Lord has said. How much of the Lord your God, that is of Him do you have, or have received? If it is much, then how much is required of you? For how can you do the work of the Lord, if you have not that which He has, to do it?”
**Surely everything we have is a gift from God? Our bodies, our intellects, our very existence? Are you saying the ability to reason is not a gift from God? Logically, if everything we have is a gift from God, and we have the ability to reason, then the ability to reason is something that has been given, and the precept that something is required of those to whom something is given applies, yes? **
"Or is it that the fear of the Lord, is just that, fear of the Lord. And if it be not of His Wisdom or His Knowledge or His Understanding, how could it be respected to be intellect at all before the Lord?
How much intellect did it take for the Israelite to shake in their boots when the Lord their God spoke to them the Ten Commandments? (Ex:20)
how much intellect does it take for the mountains to shake or melt of Him. How much intellect did it take for the storm to stop when the Lord Jesus told it to? Storms don’t have brains nor do mountains."
My question to you would be why you think Jesus went around teaching, stimulating the intellects of his hearers, why we were given the Word, which requires intellect to properly interpret, and so on, if the only proper response to the Lord is fear and trembling. It says the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom, not wisdom in its entirety. I’d agree it didn’t take much intellect for the Israelites to fear the Lord in that moment, but I think it took plenty of intellect to meditate on, implement, and truly come to appreciate the Law after it was given.
Mountains and storms are not human beings. They have not been given the same faculties as we have. Their response to the Lord is proper to their place in the created order. Sometimes our proper response is the same–to fall on our faces and say “my Lord and my God!”. Sometimes our proper response is to exercise our intellects and reflect on what that means, in order to more fully worship God.
The wicked love there own, and many love money more then anything.
Beauty in the created world is not Spiritual no matter how much you might admire it, or how nice it makes you feel, though yes God made it, so that you may enjoy it, but it’s not Spiritual. Again the wicked enjoy and admire the beauty in the created world."
I don’t agree. If the Creator made the natural world (including brains), and called it good, then it has spiritual significance. I think the beauty of the our world is a sacramental (based on the Psalms). The wicked may admire the created world, and in doing so, be brought closer to its Creator. They may not, but then again they may.
“The “(i.e. the ability to reason)” is your addition to what the Lord has said, not what the Lord has said. How much of the Lord your God, that is of Him do you have, or have received? If it is much, then how much is required of you? For how can you do the work of the Lord, if you have not that which He has, to do it?”
**Surely everything we have is a gift from God? Our bodies, our intellects, our very existence? Are you saying the ability to reason is not a gift from God? Logically, if everything we have is a gift from God, and we have the ability to reason, then the ability to reason is something that has been given, and the precept that something is required of those to whom something is given applies, yes? **
"Or is it that the fear of the Lord, is just that, fear of the Lord. And if it be not of His Wisdom or His Knowledge or His Understanding, how could it be respected to be intellect at all before the Lord?
How much intellect did it take for the Israelite to shake in their boots when the Lord their God spoke to them the Ten Commandments? (Ex:20)
how much intellect does it take for the mountains to shake or melt of Him. How much intellect did it take for the storm to stop when the Lord Jesus told it to? Storms don’t have brains nor do mountains."
My question to you would be why you think Jesus went around teaching, stimulating the intellects of his hearers, why we were given the Word, which requires intellect to properly interpret, and so on, if the only proper response to the Lord is fear and trembling. It says the fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom, not wisdom in its entirety.
I’d agree it didn’t take much intellect for the Israelites to fear the Lord in that moment, but I think it took plenty of intellect to meditate on, implement, and truly come to appreciate the Law after it was given.Mountains and storms are not human beings. They have not been given the same faculties as we have. Their response to the Lord is proper to their place in the created order. Sometimes our proper response is the same–to fall on our faces and say “my Lord and my God!”. Sometimes our proper response is to exercise our intellects and reflect on what that means, in order to more fully worship God.
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