Faith only?

[CentralFLJames]

The big picture is this:

God sent his son to save all who would have faith.
If you truly have faith, you will express it with Love and other good works.
You will take part in 2 Jugments when Christ returns.

The first will be the Judgement of Salvation.
If you have faith in Christ, you will be deemed righteous, and recieve eternity in Heaven. If you do not have faith in Christ, you will be deemed a wicked servant, and will recieve an eternity in the lake of fire.

The Second is the Judgement of Works.
This is a test by fire. Your works will be put into a heap and burned. You will then recieve rewards for that which remains.
Anything that is a result of human nature will burn like the chaffe. Anything of the Spirit will be refined as Gold or Silver.

Works and Love are a result of the Grace of God to those who believe in Jesus Christ, the son of God.

Do I believe that since salvation comes by faith alone, that I can continue to live in sin? NO, absolutely not. If I have faith, then the HS will produce good works in me. If the HS has not done this, then I do not truly have faith.

Where there is smoke there is fire. This is nearly all smoke and mirrors and of the self combusting variety.

For starters the first judgement is personal and happens at the instant of death. The 2nd judgement is at the 2nd comming. Even the saints who are in heaven will have their forgiven sins revealed to all - but it will bring them no shame and add to their glory. But to those who are the offspring of the devil they will go down to the flames and everlasting shame.

My advise - don’t keep posting these kinds of strawman trials. It’s just going to all burn up later - or some-one’s going to hold your feet to the fire…

James

 

[protestantman]

God said in James 2:24 that “Faith Alone” does not save.

If you don’t believe that you don’t believe God.

It really is that simple!

This is not what James 2:24 says. You have missread it. It only says that faith without works is dead. I also covered that topic (I think I accidentally refered to it as Timothy, Sorry all)
You have still failed to answer any of my questions. Do you have answers, or will you continue to avoid them?

Paul made it absolutely clear that trying to gain salvation through works is foolish. It also makes a mockery of Christ’s sacrifice. If works had anything to do with salvation, then Paul was a Liar. He even said that if your works could gain salvation, then Christ died for nothing.

I do not wish to read any arguments, unless anyone can answer the questions that Paul asked in Galations. I am interested how anyone can answer them and still believe that salvation is not by faith alone. Its even more interesting that such simple questions have been avoided.

 

[protestantman]

Where there is smoke there is fire. This is nearly all smoke and mirrors and of the self combusting variety.

For starters the first judgement is personal and happens at the instant of death. The 2nd judgement is at the 2nd comming. Even the saints who are in heaven will have their forgiven sins revealed to all - but it will bring them no shame and add to their glory. But to those who are the offspring of the devil they will go down to the flames and everlasting shame.

My advise - don’t keep posting these kinds of strawman trials. It’s just going to all burn up later - or some-one’s going to hold your feet to the fire…

James

So, instead of addressing the questions, your only rebuttle is to say that its a strawman theory? You think that that is good debate? So hold my feet to the Fire. I am ready. Answer the Questions. Show me how what Paul said is untrue or false. I would love to see your reasoning.

Your style of arguing, is to never address any of the questions. Why is that? Do you not have answers? If you do, I am eager to hear them. If you have questions I would gladly answer them as well.

 

[Church_Militant]

This is not what James 2:24 says. You have missread it. It only says that faith without works is dead. I also covered that topic (I think I accidentally refered to it as Timothy, Sorry all)
You have still failed to answer any of my questions. Do you have answers, or will you continue to avoid them?

Paul made it absolutely clear that trying to gain salvation through works is foolish. It also makes a mockery of Christ’s sacrifice. If works had anything to do with salvation, then Paul was a Liar. He even said that if your works could gain salvation, then Christ died for nothing.

I do not wish to read any arguments, unless anyone can answer the questions that Paul asked in Galations. I am interested how anyone can answer them and still believe that salvation is not by faith alone. Its even more interesting that such simple questions have been avoided.

Really? I disagree.

It’s not a matter of what Paul said but of what Christ said.
Look here at Matthew 25:31-46.
31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Based upon that passage alone it becomes very clear that it is you that is misinterpreting the writings of St. Paul. But then of course there is more. Look here at Matthew 7:16-27
16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. 24 Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.

What are fruits? From the context…works. Works of faith-full obedience.

Just as with so many other aspects of the gospel, the modern post reformation step children have persisted in a new wind of doctrines of men that actually offers an different and deficient gospel of salvation to the world. Even just reading the New Testament all the way through to discover the context of the salvation message that is there will refute that different gospel.

Yes St. James says that faith without works is dead, and the gospel message that was preached by the apostles themselves on the day of Pentecost shows that faith must be married to certain works to be effective to salvation.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I disagree with blanket statements or beliefs like, “You must received the eucharist to make it into heaven.” I know you didn’t state it exactly like that, but I perceived this to be your position. As you replied, there are exceptions.

I stand by what I have said irrespective of you perceptions.
Jesus’ words are in fact disturbing - to me as well. But its very clear that He wants us to make decisive decisions and to stand by Him with conviction and trust. Outside of invincible ignorance the only other way I can see getting around the sacramental requirement for Eucharist is to perform what The Church calls “Spiritual Communion”. In circumstances where one is in an unworthy state to receive communion (perhaps being divorced and remarried by annulment) or physically can’t get to mass etc. one can still receive communion spiritually or non-sacramentally. Perhaps there is someway for spiritual communion of desire to be permitted by those who truly believe but are not Catholic? I think this is dubious though. Key to receiving Eucharist is being in communion with The Bishop and with The Pope and the visible Church and being obedient to the authority Christ vested in The Church. Those who are not obedient to The Church by desire or in fact are not in obedience to Christ. Such are in grave spiritual danger. Ignorance is no excuse if one should have known given the conditions and state of live that they find themselves in.

That is my opinion not because I want it that way - but because my conscience tells me that God demands obedience and that many are called but few enter. If it were up to me I’d much prefer that on one’s death bed God would declare anyone in grave sin as “insane” for letting themselves miss an opportunity for eternity in heaven and forgive all. By human standards it sure sounds “insane” or at least is a case of invincible ignorance by reason of insanity. Who knows, maybe senility is part of God’s saving plan for the elderly?

More here on Spiritual Communion:ENCYCLICAL LETTER ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA
OF HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II

Spiritual Communion

When you say things like, “My personal opinion”, as it pertains to invincible ignorance, realize that it is just your opinion. The Church doesn’t see it that way as it is slightly broader than you view on the matter. I DO agree with you on those who are maliciously ignorant, though.
Peace.

Sorry, on this one you are offering only your counter opinion on what you imagine the church teaches. To my knowledge The Church has not officially ruled ex-cathedra and given specific definitions of when a person is judged ‘invincibly ignorant’. Can you point to any doctrine here that makes your opinion more valid than mine? God judges in these matters. Given the consequences of being wrong it it a dangerous position to teach that a person may escape judgement through a wider interpretation of ignorance. This is especially the case in light of scripture having the literal words of Jesus about ‘many are called but few enter’ and His words ‘unless you eat my body you have no life in you’.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

So, instead of addressing the questions, your only rebuttle is to say that its a strawman theory? You think that that is good debate? So hold my feet to the Fire. I am ready. Answer the Questions. Show me how what Paul said is untrue or false. I would love to see your reasoning.

Your style of arguing, is to never address any of the questions. Why is that? Do you not have answers? If you do, I am eager to hear them. If you have questions I would gladly answer them as well.

Why should anyone waste their time responding to your style of tossing out personal opinions as fact all over the place with nothing to back them up? This is a Catholic forum. If you have questions about our faith - ask them. But please don’t come in here with an attitude of teaching us things that are your own opinion and expect people to spend a lot of personal time entertaining you. That’s just arrogant, disrespectful to our faith and condescending to those here who volunteer their substantial time. That time can be better spent with those sincerely interested in learning rather than with those interested in getting Catholics to become apostate and come into your error.

I wont’ do your homework for you. You must put some effort into things if you want to learn.

The CCC states thusly:

I. THE PARTICULAR JUDGMENT
1021 Death puts an end to human life as the time open to either accepting or rejecting the divine grace manifested in Christ.592 The New Testament speaks of judgment primarily in its aspect of the final encounter with Christ in his second coming, but also repeatedly affirms that each will be rewarded immediately after death in accordance with his works and faith. The parable of the poor man Lazarus and the words of Christ on the cross to the good thief, as well as other New Testament texts speak of a final destiny of the soul–a destiny which can be different for some and for others.593

1022 Each man receives his eternal retribution in his immortal soul at the very moment of his death, in a particular judgment that refers his life to Christ: either entrance into the blessedness of heaven-through a purification594 or immediately,595 – or immediate and everlasting damnation.596

At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love.597

[continued from above]
V. THE LAST JUDGMENT

1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"623 will precede the Last Judgment. This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man’s] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."624 Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him. . . . Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. . . . And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."625

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man’s relationship with God will be laid bare.626 The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When “our God comes, he does not keep silence.”. . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need. If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head. Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury. But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence."627

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.628

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."629 It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the “blessed hope” of the Lord’s return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."630

I have attached References in the subsequent continuation post since they all don’t fit here. After you have spent time digested all that come back for clarification if you still need it.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

References to Particular Judgement and Last Judgement from prior post.

591 OCF, Prayer of Commendation.
592 Cf. 2 Tim 1:9-10.
593 Cf. Lk 16:22; 23:43; Mt 16:26; 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23; Heb 9:27; 12:23.,
594 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274) S 857-858; Council of Florence (1439)S 1304- 1306 ; Council of Trent (1563)S 1820.
595 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336)S 1000-1001; John XXII, Ne super his (1334) S 990.
596 Cf. Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336) S 1002.
597 St. John of the Cross, Dichos 64.
598 1 Jn 3:2; cf. 1 Cor 13:12; Rev 22:4.
599 Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336) S 1000; cf. LG 49.
600 Phil 1:23; cf. Jn 14:3; 1 Thess 4:17.
601 Cf. Rev 2:17.
602 St. Ambrose, In Luc.,10,121L 15 1834A.
603 1 Cor 2:9.
604 St. Cyprian, Ep. 58,10,1 :CSEL 3/2,665.
605 Rev 22:5; cf. Mt 25:21,23.
606 Cf. Council of Florence (1439) S 1304; Council of Trent (1563) S 1820; (1547):1580; see also Benedict XII, Benedictus Deus (1336) S 1000.
607 Cf. 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pet 1:7.
608 St. Gregory the Great, Dial. 4,39L 77,396; cf. Mt 12:31.
609 2 Macc 12:46.
610 Cf. Council of Lyons II (1274)S 856.
611 St. John Chrysostom, Hom. in 1 Cor. 41,5G 61,361; cf. Job 1:5.
612 1 Jn 3:14-15.
613 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.
614 Cf. Mt 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42,50; Mk 9:43-48.
615 Mt 13:41-42.
616 Mt 25:41.
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.
618 Mt 7:13-14.
619 LG 48 § 3; Mt 22:13; cf. Heb 9:27; Mt 25:13,26,30,31-46.
620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529)S 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.
621 2 Pet 3:9.
622 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.
623 Acts 24:15.
624 Jn 5:28-29.
625 Mt 25:31,32,46.
626 Cf. Jn 12:49.
627 St. Augustine, Sermo 18, 4L 38,130-131; cf. Ps 50:3.
628 Cf. Song 8:6.
629 2 Cor 6:2.
630 Titus 2:13; 2 Thess 1:10.
631 LG 48; Cf. Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13.
632 2 Pet 3:13; Cf. Rev 21:1.
633 Eph 1:10.
634 Cf. Rev 21:5.
635 Rev 21:4.
636 Cf. LG 1.
637 Rev 21:2,9.
638 Cf. Rev 21:27.
639 Rom 8:19-23.
640 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 5,32,1G 7/2,210.
641 GS 39 § 1.
642 GS 39 § 2.
643 GS 39 § 3.
644 1 Cor 5:28.
645 St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catech. illum. 18,29G 33,1049.
646 Cf. Rev 22:21.
647 Isa 65:16.
648 Cf. Mt 6:2,5,16; Jn 5:19.
649 St. Augustine, Sermo 58,11,13L 38,399.
650 Rev 3:14.
651 2 Cor 1:20.

James

 

[elvisman]

Yet Paul states that salvation is not of yourselves.

You did not answer the Last Question.
You ignore what Paul said to the Galations.
So again
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?
Again,** the point of the Law if moot because I don’t follow the Mosaic Law.**
Every major theologian and Biblical scholar (Protestant and Catholic) will agree that the letter to the Galations was written because of the Judaizers who were misinforming them.
They held that the converted pagans in Galatia had to follow the Mosaic Law (circumcision, dietary laws, etc.) in order to be good Christians.

Also, can you answer Pauls other questions?

After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Hmmmm . . . I just can’t seem to make you see that I’m not Jewish.
As for attaining my goal by human effort, NO. You have to jump through more hoops as a Protestant to believe that faith alone will save you rather than by accepting what Jesus, Peter, Paul, James and the rest said about DOING God’s will.
Here’s a question of my own: Where does Scripture say, “Faith Alone”
(Hint: It DOES say it somewhere in the New Testament!)

And now for my own questions.

Is it possible to produce the fruits of the Spirit, if you have not yet recieved the Spirit?

Nope.

Are works a result of human effort?

Does faith produce works, or is it possible to produce good works without faith?

Faith produces OBEDIENCE. (Acts 6:7, Romans 1:5, 16-26, 2 Thess. 1:8)

Where does Paul specify that he is talking about Mosaic law alone?

**Galatians 2:21: “*I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.” ***
Galatians 3:19-21: “Why, then, the law? It was added for transgressions, until the descendant came to whom the promise had been made; it was promulgated by angels at the hand of a mediator. Now there is no mediator when only one party is involved, and God is one. Is the law then opposed to the promises (of God)? Of course not! For if a law had been given that could bring life, then righteousness would in reality come from the law.”
What Law do you think he was talking about? When you speak to a 1st Century Jew about “the Law”, there is NO doubt in his mind that you refer to the MOSAIC Law.

Are the commandments moot? Is the book of the Law moot?

Is circumcision required among Christians? How about sacrificing animals, dietary Laws, stoning harlots, laws pertaining to lepers, etc?
Now you’re just being silly because your argument doesn’t hold water.

 

[elvisman]

I stand by what I have said irrespective of you perceptions.
Jesus’ words are in fact disturbing - to me as well. But its very clear that He wants us to make decisive decisions and to stand by Him with conviction and trust. Outside of invincible ignorance the only other way I can see getting around the sacramental requirement for Eucharist is to perform what The Church calls “Spiritual Communion”. In circumstances where one is in an unworthy state to receive communion (perhaps being divorced and remarried by annulment) or physically can’t get to mass etc. one can still receive communion spiritually or non-sacramentally. Perhaps there is someway for spiritual communion of desire to be permitted by those who truly believe but are not Catholic? I think this is dubious though. Key to receiving Eucharist is being in communion with The Bishop and with The Pope and the visible Church and being obedient to the authority Christ vested in The Church. Those who are not obedient to The Church by desire or in fact are not in obedience to Christ. Such are in grave spiritual danger. Ignorance is no excuse if one should have known given the conditions and state of live that they find themselves in.

That is my opinion not because I want it that way - but because my conscience tells me that God demands obedience and that many are called but few enter. If it were up to me I’d much prefer that on one’s death bed God would declare anyone in grave sin as “insane” for letting themselves miss an opportunity for eternity in heaven and forgive all. By human standards it sure sounds “insane” or at least is a case of invincible ignorance by reason of insanity. Who knows, maybe senility is part of God’s saving plan for the elderly?

More here on Spiritual Communion:ENCYCLICAL LETTER ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA
OF HIS HOLINESS POPE JOHN PAUL II

Spiritual Communion

Sorry, on this one you are offering only your counter opinion on what you imagine the church teaches. To my knowledge The Church has not officially ruled ex-cathedra and given specific definitions of when a person is judged ‘invincibly ignorant’. Can you point to any doctrine here that makes your opinion more valid than mine? God judges in these matters. Given the consequences of being wrong it it a dangerous position to teach that a person may escape judgement through a wider interpretation of ignorance. This is especially the case in light of scripture having the literal words of Jesus about ‘many are called but few enter’ and His words ‘unless you eat my body you have no life in you’.

James

Sorry, James, but you’re wrong. This is NOT my opinion, it is the belief of the Catholic Church:

*"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, CAN BE SAVED. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity." (CCC, 1260) ***

Granted, it is not the norm, but it IS possible.
**This is what Jesus himself was talking about in John 9:1-41, **
when the Pharissees confronted him about curing the blind man on the Sabbath. After much debate, the asked him: "Surely we are not also blind, are we?" Jesus said in reply:
"If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains."

 

[CentralFLJames]

**Sorry, James, but you’re wrong. This is NOT **my opinion, it is the belief of the Catholic Church:

"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, CAN BE SAVED*. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity." (CCC, 1260) *

Granted, it is not the norm, but it IS possible.
**This is what Jesus himself was talking about in John 9:1-41, **
when the Pharissees confronted him about curing the blind man on the Sabbath. After much debate, the asked him: "Surely we are not also blind, are we?" Jesus said in reply:
"If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you are saying, ‘We see,’ so your sin remains."

I am not wrong because this is not even the same topic that we are talking about. I am talking specifically about invincible ignorance for non-believers who have had no opportunity to hear the word of God - there is a concept of baptism of desire. This does not apply for those who have heard the word of God, been baptised and consciously reject the Catholic Church teaching on Eucharist - unless they are mentally deficient or are brainwashed or somehow unable to exercise a free will response to the truth. As ugly as it sounds - some people really do reject truth and some people really do go to Hell. Whether you want to admit it or not you are giving non-Catholics (esp Protestants) a reason to stay Protestant in the dubious hope and false comfort that God will not hold them accountable to His commandment to partake of His Body and to be obedient to The Church. That is a very dangerous teaching.

But even in this doctrine above there are no guidelines or guarantees whatsoever as to if any are saved or not in the words “can be saved”. The Church is ONLY admitting to the possibility and nothing more. It is not giving its permission or assent! It is deferring to God’s perfect Judgement taken together with God’s perfect Mercy rather than exercise its rights to loose and bind for those who have no free choice to accept The Church Teaching.

The desire for ecumenical outreach should not supersede Jesus’ teachings and compel a soft pedal of the fact that obedience to The Church’s authority and Jesus teaching is required for salvation. That’s the path I see you going down here. Jesus created a spiritual tension with His commandment to eat His Body to seperate those paying lip service from Him and the company of those truly committed to Him. This was to exemplify His sobering warning of the anguish people would face at the time of judgement that ‘not every one who calls me lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven’. . It was meant to be spiritually shocking to compel people to really repent and follow Him and be in communion with His Church. Jesus wants to save souls but He demands firm commitment and sincere seeking of truth - not a luke-warm or passive response.

Trust me - I don’t personally want anyone to miss out on eternal salvation. The thought of somone in eternal hell is terrifying. But I think we do an injustice by trying to pacify people into complacency by implying that receiving the Eucharist is not the normative expectation for 99.98% of the cases. I trust in God’s mercy but I pray fervently for Protestants.

James

 

[protestantman]

Originally Posted by protestantman

You did not answer the Last Question.
You ignore what Paul said to the Galations.
So again
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Again, the point of the Law if moot because I don’t follow the Mosaic Law.
Every major theologian and Biblical scholar (Protestant and Catholic) will agree that the letter to the Galations was written because of the Judaizers who were misinforming them.
They held that the converted pagans in Galatia had to follow the Mosaic Law (circumcision, dietary laws, etc.) in order to be good Christians.

 Did God nullify the Mosaic Law?

If not, then this still applies. In fact, Christ said that not a single pen stroke would be removed from the Law.

Originally Posted by protestantman
Yet Paul states that salvation is not of yourselves.

 You have still not addressed this point.

Hmmmm . . . I just can’t seem to make you see that I’m not Jewish.
As for attaining my goal by human effort, NO. You have to jump through more hoops as a Protestant to believe that faith alone will save you rather than by accepting what Jesus, Peter, Paul, James and the rest said about DOING God’s will.
Here’s a question of my own: Where does Scripture say, “Faith Alone”
(Hint: It DOES say it somewhere in the New Testament!)

 First off, Paul was talking to Gentiles and not Jews.

I do not dissagree that I MUST follow Gods will. I think that is the big missunderstanding here. Just because I believe that I am saved by faith alone, does not mean that I am content to just have faith. The opposite is true. I strive to become more like Christ every day. Any man who says he is saved by his faith, and does not produce good works, is a false prophet.
Secondly, In James, it says that faith alone without works is dead. This I believe 100%. I believe that works are both innevitable, and neccesary for the perfection of my salvation. If I truly have Faith, the HS WILL turn me from my sins. It is not instantaneous, but gradual. Therefore, my salvation is secure, but is still in the process of perfection.
As you agreed, works are a result of the HS, and that salvation cannot be obtained by human effort. Are works human effort?
Are they not a direct RESULT of salvation? For it was you who said:

Faith produces OBEDIENCE. (Acts 6:7, Romans 1:5, 16-26, 2 Thess. 1:8)

 If works are a biproduct of Faith and the HS, how can they come before you are saved?

What Law do you think he was talking about? When you speak to a 1st Century Jew about “the Law”, there is NO doubt in his mind that you refer to the MOSAIC Law.

 I think he was talking about all Law, because he also said, "all things are permissible." Is that not an extremely bold statement? He said that, because if I do anything to the Glory of God, under the direction of the HS, then it is completely within the Law. Christ fullfilled the Law. Thus he made it complete. We do not follow the law of books and man, but the law that is written on our hearts and minds.  
 Are not the commandments a part of the mosaic law? Yet you say you are not under the Mosaic law. In fact, what sins are not covered under the Mosaic law? Even the commandment of Love was part of the Mosaic Law. Christ said that if you love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, then you will have also obeyed the other commandments. Love was the goal of the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are the cornewrstone of the Mosaic law. So how can you say that you do not follow the Mosaic Law?

 

[protestantman]

**Is circumcision **required among Christians? How about sacrificing animals, dietary Laws, stoning harlots, laws pertaining to lepers, etc?
**Now you’re just being **silly because your argument doesn’t hold water.

No circumcision is not required among Christians, because it says that those who are and those who aren’t will be justified by the SAME faith. Circumcision was a sign of the Old Covenant, and is thus no longer neccesary. The sacrificing of animals was fullfilled by Christ’s body and blood. The others (dietary, harlots, and Lepers.) are no longer the same. If the HS leads me to follow the dietary laws, then it is thus required of me, if I am to remain in the HS. The stoning of harlots has been taken away, because the religious leaders no longer have that authority. However, harlots are still judged for their actions. Christ has the sole authority to Judge a persons heart. Lepers do not exist, but if they did, would you not agree that the Leper Laws are a good way of dealing with communicable diseases. NOT A SINGLE PEN STROKE HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM THE LAW.

What about Murder, idolotry, lust, hate, theft, adultry, covetousness, lies, honoring your father and mother, keeping the Sabbath day holy? Are these not from the Books of the Law?

What about Love, peace, joy, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and self- control?

In fact, the fruits of the Spirit are completely in line with the Commandments.

 

[elvisman]

Did God nullify the Mosaic Law?
If not, then this still applies. In fact, Christ said that not a single pen stroke would be removed from the Law.?

First off, Paul was talking to Gentiles and not Jews.
I do not dissagree that I MUST follow Gods will. I think that is the big missunderstanding here. Just because I believe that I am saved by faith alone, does not mean that I am content to just have faith. The opposite is true. I strive to become more like Christ every day. Any man who says he is saved by his faith, and does not produce good works, is a false prophet.
Secondly, In James, it says that faith alone without works is dead. This I believe 100%. I believe that works are both innevitable, and neccesary for the perfection of my salvation. If I truly have Faith, the HS WILL turn me from my sins. It is not instantaneous, but gradual. Therefore, my salvation is secure, but is still in the process of perfection.
As you agreed, works are a result of the HS, and that salvation cannot be obtained by human effort. Are works human effort?
Are they not a direct RESULT of salvation? For it was you who said:

If works are a biproduct of Faith and the HS, how can they come before you are saved?

I think he was talking about all Law, because he also said, “all things are permissible.” Is that not an extremely bold statement? He said that, because if I do anything to the Glory of God, under the direction of the HS, then it is completely within the Law. Christ fullfilled the Law. Thus he made it complete. We do not follow the law of books and man, but the law that is written on our hearts and minds.
Are not the commandments a part of the mosaic law? Yet you say you are not under the Mosaic law. In fact, what sins are not covered under the Mosaic law? Even the commandment of Love was part of the Mosaic Law. Christ said that if you love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, then you will have also obeyed the other commandments. Love was the goal of the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments are the cornewrstone of the Mosaic law. So how can you say that you do not follow the Mosaic Law?

You say, “I think he was talking about all Law, because . . .”.
That’s your OPINION - not fact. The ordinances of the law were nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14-17).
**Do you adhere to the Mosaic Law to the letter? I don’t think you do. **
Do you hold to the Lord’s Day or the Jewish Sabbath?
Do you sacrifice animals to God for your sins?
Do you practice all of the laws regarding cleanliness?
Do you abstain from pork, shellfish and other foods that are banned within the Law?
Jesus FULFILLED the Law. The Law was a shadow of things to come - which Jesus fulfilled. We are no longer bound by the letter of the law. This is what Paul was talking about and, yes, he WAS talking to converted Christians who were being influenced by the Judaizers. Do a little research before you make such outlandish claims.
Of course the Commandments and other precepts would continue after Jesus because they are timeless edicts. don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, etc.

 

[protestantman]

Galations 5:14
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 14:8-14
8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”[a] and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”** 10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.[c]

Paul made the statement the we are no longer under the SUPERVISION of the Law. (The Law is not my master) We are under the supervision of the HS. If we follow the leading of the HS, THROUGH FAITH, we will not stray from the commandment of Love. LOVE IS THE FULLFILLMENT of the law.

Therefore, we are not under the law as the Jews, but we still must put those acts of sinful nature to death. As Paul said:

Colosians 3:5-14
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming.** 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all.

12Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.****

 

[protestantman]

You say, “I think he was talking about all Law, because . . .”.
That’s your OPINION - not fact.

That is what you asked for.

The ordinances of the law were nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14-17).
Do you adhere to the Mosaic Law to the letter? I don’t think you do.
Do you hold to the Lord’s Day or the Jewish Sabbath?
Do you sacrifice animals to God for your sins?
Do you practice all of the laws regarding cleanliness?
Do you abstain from pork, shellfish and other foods that are banned within the Law?
Jesus FULFILLED the Law. The Law was a shadow of things to come - which Jesus fulfilled. We are no longer bound by the letter of the law. This is what Paul was talking about and, yes, he WAS talking to converted Christians who were being influenced by the Judaizers. Do a little research before you make such outlandish claims.
Of course the Commandments and other precepts would continue after Jesus because they are timeless edicts. don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, etc.

I agree with all of this. I am not saying that I follow every letter of the Law. Christ fullfilled the Law. The Law is now written on my heart and mind. But, the Law also did not just dissapear. You say that Paul was talking about the Mosaic Law, and so it does not apply to you. Then you say that some of the Mosaic Law is timeless. So what Paul said does still apply, does it not? Paul went to great lengths to say that we are not under the Law. He also said that faith must express itself through Love. Love is the fullfillment of the Law. Therefore, any man who has faith, must follow the command to love, right? If you are following the command to love, then have you not also fullfilled the other commandments? The Law still exists, but it is no longer our Master. Christ fullfilled the Law, thus he has become our Lord and Savior. Faith in Christ is evident in those who obey the commandments, not because the commandments can save us, but because through our salvation we are becoming Christ-like. Christ is therefore my law. Because Christ is the fullfillment of the mosaic law, if I am in Christ, then Christ has satisfied the requirements of the Law in my stead.

 

[protestantman]

Elvisman, you have still not addressed the following point.

Originally Posted by protestantman
Yet Paul states that salvation is not of yourselves.

If salvation is not of ourselves, than how can it be by anything but Faith?

 

[elvisman]

I agree with all of this. I am not saying that I follow every letter of the Law. Christ fullfilled the Law. The Law is now written on my heart and mind. But, the Law also did not just dissapear. You say that Paul was talking about the Mosaic Law, and so it does not apply to you. Then you say that some of the Mosaic Law is timeless. So what Paul said does still apply, does it not? Paul went to great lengths to say that we are not under the Law. He also said that faith must express itself through Love. Love is the fullfillment of the Law. Therefore, any man who has faith, must follow the command to love, right? If you are following the command to love, then have you not also fullfilled the other commandments? The Law still exists, but it is no longer our Master. Christ fullfilled the Law, thus he has become our Lord and Savior. Faith in Christ is evident in those who obey the commandments, not because the commandments can save us, but because through our salvation we are becoming Christ-like. Christ is therefore my law. Because Christ is the fullfillment of the mosaic law, if I am in Christ, then Christ has satisfied the requirements of the Law in my stead.

**NOT the Ceremonial and Dietary Laws. The point STILL remains that the Law of Moses is being referred to. Christians are not bound by the Ceremonial or Dietary Laws. **
The Judaizers were instructing the pagan converts in Galatia that they had to adhere to the Ceremonial Laws. St. Paul said that this would not save them. He is not referring to obedience to faith.

 

[elvisman]

Elvisman, you have still not addressed the following point.

If salvation is not of ourselves, than how can it be by anything but Faith?

This is what Jesus has to say about it and this is what I believe:
Matt. 7:21:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven."

---

This is what St. Paul has to say about those who thing that salvation is a slam-dunk after professing your faith:
(Philipians 2:12)*** “So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and***trembling.”
(1 Cor. 4:3-4) *I do not even pass judgment on myself; *
I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord.

---

Sanctification is a process - NOT a slam-dunk.

---

 

[elvisman]

I am not wrong because this is not even the same topic that we are talking about. I am talking specifically about invincible ignorance for non-believers who have had no opportunity to hear the word of God - there is a concept of baptism of desire. This does not apply for those who have heard the word of God, been baptised and consciously reject the Catholic Church teaching on Eucharist - unless they are mentally deficient or are brainwashed or somehow unable to exercise a free will response to the truth. As ugly as it sounds - some people really do reject truth and some people really do go to Hell. Whether you want to admit it or not you are giving non-Catholics (esp Protestants) a reason to stay Protestant in the dubious hope and false comfort that God will not hold them accountable to His commandment to partake of His Body and to be obedient to The Church. That is a very dangerous teaching.

But even in this doctrine above there are no guidelines or guarantees whatsoever as to if any are saved or not in the words “can be saved”. The Church is ONLY admitting to the possibility and nothing more. It is not giving its permission or assent! It is deferring to God’s perfect Judgement taken together with God’s perfect Mercy rather than exercise its rights to loose and bind for those who have no free choice to accept The Church Teaching.

The desire for ecumenical outreach should not supersede Jesus’ teachings and compel a soft pedal of the fact that obedience to The Church’s authority and Jesus teaching is required for salvation. That’s the path I see you going down here. Jesus created a spiritual tension with His commandment to eat His Body to seperate those paying lip service from Him and the company of those truly committed to Him. This was to exemplify His sobering warning of the anguish people would face at the time of judgement that ‘not every one who calls me lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven’. . It was meant to be spiritually shocking to compel people to really repent and follow Him and be in communion with His Church. Jesus wants to save souls but He demands firm commitment and sincere seeking of truth - not a luke-warm or passive response.

Trust me - I don’t personally want anyone to miss out on eternal salvation. The thought of somone in eternal hell is terrifying. But I think we do an injustice by trying to pacify people into complacency by implying that receiving the Eucharist is not the normative expectation for 99.98% of the cases. I trust in God’s mercy but I pray fervently for Protestants.

James

First of all, I was originally addressing the fact that the “good thief” did not receive the Eucharist and was saved through Christ, thereby making your point about absolutely no admittance for those who haven’t received the Eucharist dead in the water.
I also pointed out to you that Moses and Elijah were saved as illustrated by the Transfiguration, yet they never received the Eucharist.

Secondly, I NEVER said that “those who have heard the word of God, been baptised and consciously reject the Catholic Church teaching on Eucharist” can be saved - YOU keep implying that this is what I mean. It ISN’T.
That’s not invincible ignorance anyway.

You keep arguing with me as though we have different beliefs on the matter. What we have are different ways of hearing what the Church teaches on the subject.

**Lastly, don’t throw out percentages like, "99.98% of the cases" because that is not up for you to decide the percentages. It’s up to GOD.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Sanctification is a process - NOT a slam-dunk.

---

Amen.

From the Council of Trent
If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will;** let him be anathema**.” Sixth Session CANON IX

“If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ’s sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.” Sixth Session CANON XII

The Church has ruled through its authority of loosing and binding that anyone making statements “by faith alone” is held bound to the consequence of that heretical and grave teaching sin. This anathema can only be removed by renouncing the heretical assertion and by confessing the sin through The Church for forgiveness of that grave sin.

Protestants should take heed.

James