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PJM
Guest
Actually the direct opposite is the moral, thrological and logical truth.
Faith a FREE Gift from God through the OFFER of His Grace, is the ONLY possibility.
Faith first is putting the proverbable CART before the horse.
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Faith a FREE Gift from God through the OFFER of His Grace, is the ONLY possibility.
Faith first is putting the proverbable CART before the horse.
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CrossofChrist
Guest
Saved by grace through faith that works in charity, which hopes for eternal life in Christ.
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rinnie
Guest
But I still don’t see where you can be in a state of sin and say a pray without confessing your sin to be purified from that sin.
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bmonk
Guest
It depends. If you are in a “state of venial sin”–that is, grace is injured in you, then see CCC 2565: “In the New Covenant, prayer is the living relationship of the children of God with their Father who is good beyond measure, with his Son Jesus Christ and with the Holy Spirit. The grace of the Kingdom is ‘the union of the entire holy and royal Trinity . . . with the whole human spirit.’ Thus, the life of prayer is the habit of being in the presence of the thrice-holy God and in communion with him.” This communion with God in prayer will heal the injury to you.
We see this in Luke’s parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector (which we heard just nine days ago on Sunday, October 27!) where the tax collector prays, “O God, be merciful to me, a sinner!” and goes home justified. The Church continues to pray at every Mass, “Kyrie eleison! Lord, have mercy!” (CCC 2613)
And then CCC 2631: “The first movement of the prayer of petition is asking forgiveness, like the tax collector in the parable: ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ It is a prerequisite for righteous and pure prayer. A trusting humility brings us back into the light of communion between the Father and his Son Jesus Christ and with one another, so that ‘we receive from him whatever we ask.’ Asking forgiveness is the prerequisite for both the Eucharistic liturgy and personal prayer.”
But you are right, in principle. If you are in a state of full (mortal) sin, and so outside of the state of grace, then you need the graces of the sacrament of confession (reconciliation), or its equivalents (reconciliation in the sacrament of anointing of the sick, or of course baptism if you have not yet been baptized) to return to grace.
Even then, though, the prayer of other such as Moses can intercede for us and move us to repentance and return to grace through the sacrament of reconciliation (CCC 2577)
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rinnie
Guest
I should have said mortal sin. No venial, but then it gets the thread so off track.
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kat07
Guest
A lot of Protestants like to point to Romans 11:6 and Hebrews 11. I recently had a Protestant say the quoted below to me. Can someone clarify this for me?
“Romans 11:6. What do you do with a verse that clearly says adding works negates the point of grace? He’s clearly making the point that works in any capacity negate what grace is.”
“Belief in him is actually compromised by adding to it by works. Hebrews 10 talks about regression back to trusting in something besides Jesus and says without Jesus there is no sacrifice left and that to continue to add works insults the spirit of grace.”
“Romans 11:6. What do you do with a verse that clearly says adding works negates the point of grace? He’s clearly making the point that works in any capacity negate what grace is.”
“Belief in him is actually compromised by adding to it by works. Hebrews 10 talks about regression back to trusting in something besides Jesus and says without Jesus there is no sacrifice left and that to continue to add works insults the spirit of grace.”
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bmonk
Guest
Romans 11:5-6 says, “So also at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if by grace, it is no longer because of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.”
So the remnant is chosen by grace, not by works. We agree with that. Our works, corrupted by sin, cannot save us. It is God’s gracious choice that saves us.
But to insist that therefore we do nothing in response is equally wrong. Protestants point to things like the Sacraments as human works added to grace. But if they are human works, they have no grace. It is only as human co-workers with God that they can have any effect–and St. Paul often identifies himself as such: 1 Cor 3:9, 2 Cor 6:2, 1 Thess 3:2–and in the Sacraments it is God who is always the primary actor.
Further, we have James 2: 14, 18-24:
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? . . . Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. . . . Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Here James is showing how faith leads to works. We are not saved by works, but having been saved, we are called to keep the commandments, to act in love and faith.
Grace must come first–but unless grace makes a difference, it is not really grace. We were called, not to be the same, but to be different, children of God. Jesus came to call sinners, not to remain in sin, but to a change of heart. (Mark 2:17)
So the remnant is chosen by grace, not by works. We agree with that. Our works, corrupted by sin, cannot save us. It is God’s gracious choice that saves us.
But to insist that therefore we do nothing in response is equally wrong. Protestants point to things like the Sacraments as human works added to grace. But if they are human works, they have no grace. It is only as human co-workers with God that they can have any effect–and St. Paul often identifies himself as such: 1 Cor 3:9, 2 Cor 6:2, 1 Thess 3:2–and in the Sacraments it is God who is always the primary actor.
Further, we have James 2: 14, 18-24:
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? . . . Indeed someone might say, “You have faith and I have works.” Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. . . . Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called “the friend of God.” See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
Here James is showing how faith leads to works. We are not saved by works, but having been saved, we are called to keep the commandments, to act in love and faith.
Grace must come first–but unless grace makes a difference, it is not really grace. We were called, not to be the same, but to be different, children of God. Jesus came to call sinners, not to remain in sin, but to a change of heart. (Mark 2:17)
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aragonjohn1
Guest
God in His Love creates virtue and grace. so best to do is actively imitating more than a few
graces and virtues in the life God gives.
God bless
graces and virtues in the life God gives.
God bless
F
fhansen
Guest
Grace always comes first. Faith is the proper response, but God doesn’t force us to make this response. It’s kind of like someone throwing a life preserver; we can’t be saved without it and yet we can’t be saved unless we take hold of it as well.
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