Faith or work can save us?

[tgGodsway]

These are not apples to apples constructs,. I will answer in a few hours,.
Blessings to you.

 

[Wesrock]

Correction Wesrock. It has only been the consistent message in the Roman Catholic view. This issue has come up before. If someone can give me a clear teaching from the Apostles on progressive justification, in light of the many examples from scripture where it is treated as an act, I may consider it. Last time all I got was spin and re-direct.

Justification: Process or One-Time Deal?

Romans 5:1 is a favorite verse for Calvinists and those who hold to the doctrine commonly known as “once saved, always saved:” Therefore, since we are justified...

www.catholic.com

Justification entails sanctification. You’re making a diverting charge, anyway. Please demonstrate that your interpretation of scripture was taught in the early church. Again, you’ve very little interest in what the Church actually taught and more interest in artificially reconstructing doctrines from the Church’s own book over a millenia later.

You’ve admitted that believers can fall away. Or do you deny that justification can be lost?

 

[De_Maria]

Yes I realize this Wesrock and it has caused great fear and uncertainty. The justification act is treated as a journey. This is a huge blunder.

The blunder is the idea that justification is done at one point in time. We can see Fr. Abraham’s journey of faith for that. Protestants claim that we are justified by faith alone. Ok, when did Abraham first express faith?

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

St. Paul says it was when God first called him out of Ur. When was that in Scripture:

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. 4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him; and Lot went with him: and Abram was seventy and five years old when he departed out of Haran.

Was Abraham justified by faith alone at that point? No. By Protestant calculations, he wasn’t justified for 3 more chapters which amounted to many years.

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Therefore, justification is a process which can take many years. It is not something which happens the moment that one claims to have faith.

 

[De_Maria]

Correction Wesrock. It has only been the consistent message in the Roman Catholic view. This issue has come up before. If someone can give me a clear teaching from the Apostles on progressive justification, in light of the many examples from scripture where it is treated as an act, I may consider it. Last time all I got was spin and re-direct.

All the Apostles and St. Paul. St. Paul’s is more evident. He, himself, said:

Philippians 3:12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Of course, you’ll call this sanctification. But, let’s look at the famous episode when he was knocked off his horse. Did he come to believe at that point? I think he did. Listen to the episode:

Acts 9:3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

For three days after he came to believe, he was without sight. And without justification. So, when was he justified?

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

A recounting of the same episode puts it this way:
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Therefore, he was not justified when he came to faith. He was justified three days later, when he was baptized.

 

[De_Maria]

These are not apples to apples constructs,. I will answer in a few hours,.

Yes, they are.

Blessings to you.

And to you.

 

[De_Maria]

The Catholic Teaching is that we must persevere in our faith in order to be saved. If we don’t, we can lose our salvation. As the Scripture says:

1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

 

[tgGodsway]

Well, I’m back but I’m not sure where to respond, since there are at least 4 of you tracking my every word. I’ll start with Wesrock.

You asked on page 36/67 which is it? fall away or not?.. you went on to say…
“Catholics do believe all sin and guilt is washed away at conversion (normatively baptism). However, there’s no denying that men and women continue to sin after conversion, nor do our hearts instantly become perfectly pure. There are frequent admonitions in the new testament to believers to avoid sin and be clean of heart, and warning them that those who commit serious sin will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
My response…
There must be a distinction between sin washed away at conversion and the sins that show up in one’s daily life. When Jesus said it is finished! He was talking specifically about how the payment for sin is now completed. Man’s sin, in terms of it’s penalty, (which is eternal separation from God) was placed on the final Lamb of God who took it away in an exchange for His righteousness. It was through his death, burial and resurrection that sin’s sting was forever eradicated,

But I never said sin’s power working through a disobedient believer was also eradicated, to the contrary. You are right there are frequent admonitions to cleanse ourselves from sin. In what sense? Jesus said “we are already clean because of the word which (He) spoke to us…” Jn. 15:3. Since we are already clean, He then called us to "abide in Him. " 15:4 The call to abide came after the declaration that we were clean. This is a positional standing or justification, based solely on His good favor. but it is only inferred here.

So in one sense, we are sinless creatures because Christ in us is sinless and we share His nature, (1st. John 3:9) but in another sense, we do sin and do so often, but Paul was emphatic to say, “IT IS NO LONGER I WHO DO IT BUT SIN THAT DWELLS IN ME.” Ro.7:17. In other words, Paul knew he was a sinner in the sense that his flesh was responsible, but, he refused to identify himself in the flesh. These two natures clash. Those who willfully sin without repentance or regret will not inherit the kingdom of God. This is true. But let’s define terms here. What is the kingdom of God?.. please do not insinuate that it is heaven, you will lose that argument. The kingdom of God is God’s way of doing things. It is here now spiritually,but one day it will be here physically. Those in Christ who live selfishly on this earth, will not inherit God’s ways of doing things. To inherit is not the same thing as to “enter it.” Inherit means to take up ownership. I can enter your house with your invitation, but that certainly doesn’t mean I now own it simply because I entered it.

We will be judged by our works and a meritorious inheritance will be offered to the obedient Christian. Bam! deal with that while I go visit another post.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

So if a Protestant is to be saved, he or she must remain sinless?

How does this work? What happens when a Protestant sins? Is there the Sacrament of Reconcilliation?

There are 10 commandments to be kept. What happens to a Protestant who breaks one of them? Is it automatic hell?

Please don’t t ell me God ignores the breaking of His Commandments,

You can’t just justify , You gave thousands to a charity, so when you murder, lie, steal, commit adultery , your thousands donation will be weighed against adultery with your brothers wife.

God doesn’t work that way.

 

[De_Maria]

Correction Wesrock. It has only been the consistent message in the Roman Catholic view.

And that says a great deal more than you understand. You see, the Catholic Church was established by Jesus Christ and has been Teaching this Truth from the time of Christ.

I’m not sure to which denomination you belong, if any, but none of the Protestant denominations or derivations thereof, came into being before the 1500’s.

 

[tgGodsway]

De_Maria,

The judgment seat of Christ is a judgment of the saved. It’s purpose is not to decided if one is still justified or if the so-called pending justification is finalized, contrary to popular opinion. It is a judgment of the Christian’s works whether good or bad, that he may receive what he’s got coming to him in terms of inheritance or a relinquishment of inheritance. If the justified one made no investment, he will suffer loss but he himself will be saved yet as through fire. See. 1st. Cor. 3 You go study it!

You think you know what you are talking about De_Maria, but you don’t. Not trying to be rude, but your comments about what I understand or what I don’t, are off.

There is no judgment found in the New Testament to judge the personal sins of the saved. I challenge you to quote me a verse that explicitly talks about this. Please don’t give me implicit opinions. The Romans 2 passage you sighted is in a larger context where Paul is arguing against the unsaved Jew who thinks that keeping the law will save him. He WILL render to each man according to his deeds, but it depends on which judgment you find yourself standing: the great white throne judgment of the lost, … or… the judgment seat of Christ, of the saved…

 

[tgGodsway]

Roseeurekacross,

The Lord doesn’t see Protestant or Catholic. He sees those that are his children, and those who are not.
What is lacking here is your understanding of positional justification. The Apostle Paul said that we are “seated with Christ” in heavenly places,… meaning that we were gifted with a position of righteousness=justification. How can God see us this way? His Son gave us the gift of righteousness when we “believed” in Christ. This is why Paul said, “But to him who does not WORK (righteousness) but BELIEVES on Him (Christ) who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.” Rom. 4

God justifies ungodly people as a gift, simply because they believed on Him and it was accounted for righteousness=justification. Short version: Eternal life is a free gift that ungodly people can receive when they believe.

When a believer sins, meaning that he yielded to the temptations of his lower nature, 1st. John says, he should confess his sins to God and God who is faithful will forgive him.
The commandments have no power in them over sin. They were given to Israel as a way to help them stay on the right path. But Israel could never be changed on the inside by keeping rules. Paul introduces a new law. He calls it the law of faith! Read Rom. 4 and 5 it will change your life.

 

[tgGodsway]

De_Maria, I have been expounding on Christ words and those of the earliest Apostles on this site for a while now. These were the eye-witnesses to the birth of Christianity. I do not think in terms of denomination. This would be immature in my view. There is only one Church body not two. But it sounds like you, and a few others on this site are more of a protestant than I.

I offer no protest to you, only the written word of God. Protestants in general have no need to protest anymore, though a few still do. The written word of God is now in their hands and the freedom to worship God according to their own personal customs and convictions is already theirs. The protest has been over for many many years now and Roman’s defense is no longer necessary. The need to protest from this side of things is finished. God is working a great work in both Roman Catholic and Evangelical bodies. He will unite us in time when the ultimate persecution comes.

God is moving mightily in the Church universal.

 

[tgGodsway]

wesrock,

I hear you. My interpretation cannot represent the Apostles fully, because they are better than I. However, I have done nothing but quote their words. I have tried to find their intent as they wrote and follow the rule Jesus gave us, which is “upon the mouth of two or three witnesses LET EVERY WORD BE ESTABLISHED.”

If you quote “church fathers” to me, you are talking about people who lived centuries after the Apostles lived and died. These fathers were far removed from the inner circle of Christianity. They were removed geographically, nationally, and socially. Though there can be some good come of their opinions and beliefs, any decree that contradicts the clear teachings of the Apostolic church is not of God.

The concept of sanctification was taught in the 1st. Century Church as evidenced by what we find in our New Testament. In theology a consensus can be considered on how sanctification plays out. For me, I see it this way.

You have been saved in spirit from the penalty of sin.= JUSTIFICATION
You are being saved in soul from the power of sin= SANCTIFICATION
You will be saved in body from the presence of sin= GLORIFICATION

Sanctification is the delivering of your soul=LIFE. This has to do with your outer man! James said, 'receive with meekness the implanted word which is able to save your souls" He wasn’t talking about going to heaven. he was talking about God delivering your life from one level to the next. From life, to abundant life. From sickness to health… from sadness to joy… How is that accomplished? by receiving the WORD in humility.

Believers CAN fall away. But what does that mean. Fall away in what sense? Did the Prodigal son cease to be the son of his father when he fell away?.. No, he remembered that he had a father when he was eating pig food. He repented and came back to his father. He was always the father’s son. Nothing could reverse the birth. Yet he was cut off because of his stupid decisions,

blessings to you sir.

 

[De_Maria]

The judgment seat of Christ is a judgment of the saved.

Hello GW, that is a Protestant misunderstanding.

It’s purpose is not to decided if one is still justified… See. 1st. Cor. 3 You go study it!

I’ve already studied it. And you’re adding a great deal to the Scripture. Show me where 1 Cor 3 or 1 Cor 5:10 says anything about, “receive what he’s got coming to him in terms of inheritance or a relinquishment of inheritance.”

Answer: It isn’t there. You’re reading that in.

As for 1 Cor 3, that includes a description of Purgatory, from 1 Cor 3:10-15 and the detail that those who defile the Temple of God will in return, be destroyed by God (v. 17).

All this can be verified by a simple reading of the text.

You think you know what you are talking about De_Maria, but you don’t. Not trying to be rude,…

No offense taken.

There is no judgment found in the New Testament to judge the personal sins of the saved.

It is the saved that St. Paul addresses when he says:

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Biblically speaking, the world is divided into Jew and Gentile. Therefore, when St. Paul says Jew or Gentile, that means that everyone, even Christians, will be judged with the same standards.

I challenge you to quote me a verse that explicitly talks about this.

You forget that I am Catholic. You are Protestant. It is you who requires explicit statements from Scripture and yet you have no explicit statements from Scripture to support sola scriptura or sola fide. But, I believe the Catholic Teaching that Catholic Doctrine is in Scripture, implied or explicit. Therefore, I need not provide anyone any explicit statement.

Please don’t give me implicit opinions.

Why not? That’s what you trade in. Look at all the opinions you inserted into the understanding of 1 Cor 3 and 1 Cor 5:10, above.

The Romans 2 passage you sighted is in a larger context where Paul is arguing against the unsaved Jew who thinks that keeping the law will save him.

Two gross errors there.

1. St. Paul is imparting the Teaching in writing. He is arguing with no one.
2. St. Paul is explaining that all men will be judged by what they do. Those who do good will be rewarded with eternal life. And those who do not obey God, will be condemned.

He WILL render to each man according to his deeds,

That is as explicit as it gets.

but it depends on which judgment you find yourself standing:

You’re reading that into the text.

the great white throne judgment of the lost, … or… the judgment seat of Christ, of the saved…

Nothing of the sort can be found in Scripture. Or if it can, provide the chapter and verse.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria, I have been expounding on Christ words and those of the earliest Apostles on this site for a while now.

That’s great.

These were the eye-witnesses to the birth of Christianity. I do not think in terms of denomination. This would be immature in my view. There is only one Church body not two.

There is only one Church body, not 50000. No one can be a member of the Body of Christ who contradicts His Word in the Catholic Church.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

But it sounds like you, and a few others on this site are more of a protestant than I.

Protestants are those who contradict the Church which Jesus Christ established. That is the Catholic Church and no other.

I offer no protest to you, only the written word of God.

You can’t distinguish between the written Word of God and your interpretation. The written Word of God is true, your interpretation is false. The written Word of God is the written Teaching of the Catholic Church.

Protestants in general have no need to protest anymore, though a few still do. The written word of God is now in their hands and the freedom to worship God according to their own personal customs and convictions is already theirs.

That is a Protestant myth. God established a Church and commanded how He wanted to be worshipped. You worship God the way you want, but reject the worship which He instituted.

The protest has been over for many many years now and Roman’s defense is no longer necessary. The need to protest from this side of things is finished. God is working a great work in both Roman Catholic and Evangelical bodies. He will unite us in time when the ultimate persecution comes.

Unity can’t come without truth. Unless you accept the Truth which Jesus Christ passes down through His Church, the Catholic Church, you will not be united to Christ.

God is moving mightily in the Church universal.

The Church universal is the Catholic Church.

I hope that doesn’t offend you. Just speaking the hard truth, in love.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

ok so a protestant can commit adultery today, ask for forgiveness, commit adultery tomorrow, ask God forgiveness, and basically continue this affair till he drops dead, not being serious in stopping this sin?

seriously how does this work?

do you guys believe you can continue in an afulterous relationship and not be truly repentent.

or

do beliefs, since you said the 10 commandments dont count these days,

that an adulterous affair is not a sin.

which then follows through into a discussion on Covenants

 

[lanman87]

ok so a protestant can commit adultery today, ask for forgiveness, commit adultery tomorrow, ask God forgiveness, and basically continue this affair till he drops dead, not being serious in stopping this sin?
seriously how does this work?

The short answer is no, at least for the vast majority of evangelicals.

The belief is that when someone comes to Christ they are made a new creation, adopted spritually as a Child of God, sealed by the Holy Spirit and indwelled by the Spirit who works within us. We kinda sum all that up by the phrase “ask Jesus into your Heart” or “Being Born Again” (we don’t believe you necessarily are born again at water baptism but that is another thread).

When that genuinely happens to someone they now have a spiritual nature and a sin nature. The Holy Spirit compels them to walk in the spirit instead of the flesh and the very desires of their heart is changed and continues to be changed as they grow in faith, understanding, and love. When they do sin they are convicted by the Holy Spirit and if they continue in sin they grieve the Holy Spirit, however the Holy Spirit isn’t removed from them, they aren’t unborn again, and God’s gifts aren’t taken away from them. However, if they are legitimate Children they will undergo the discipline of God up to and even including the point of physical death. God will not allow one of His children to remain disobedient and bring shame to His name.

However, if someone who claims to be a Christian and remains in sin, doesn’t show any remorse, and doesn’t undergo some obvious discipline of God then they weren’t a genuine Christian to being with.

Hebrews 12: 7-11 says: It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

1 John 3:9-10 says: No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

So you see, those born of God cannot make a practice of sinning. The Holy Spirit simply will not allow it.

 

[Wesrock]

So you see, those born of God cannot make a practice of sinning. The Holy Spirit simply will not allow it.

People say things like this then object to a concept like Papal Infallibility.

 

[lanman87]

People say things like this then object to a concept like Papal Infallibility.

Well, I was thinking more along what the Bible clearly calls sin. Adultery, idolatry, lying, stealing and so forth. You know, those things that hurt ourselves and our neighbors, family and friends.

 

[Wesrock]

Thomas Aquinas replies to this quite thoroughly in Summa Contra Gentiles, Book V, Chapter 70. EDIT: Parsing this down to just the paragraphs of most scriptural relevance, though the whole chapter is worth while).

[6] There is more. It seems superfluous to warn those not to sin who cannot sin. But in the evangelical and apostolic teaching the faithful are so admonished, although they have already received the grace of the Holy Spirit through the sacraments, for we read in Hebrews (12:15): “Looking diligently, lest any man be wanting to the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up do hinder”; and in Ephesians (4:30): “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God whereby you are sealed”; and again: “He that thinks himself to stand, let him take heed lest he fall” (1 Cor. 10). Even the Apostle himself says of himself: “I chastise my body and bring it into subjection, lest perhaps when I have preached to others, I myself should become a castaway” (1 Cor. 9:27). Therefore, men are not rendered impeccable by the grace received in the sacraments.

[7] This excludes the error of certain heretics who say that man, after he has received the grace of the Spirit, is unable to sin, and that, if he sins, he never had the grace of the Holy Spirit.

[8] They take, however, as a prop for their error the saying of 1 Corinthians (13:8): “Charity never falls away.” And 1 John (3:6, 9) says: “Whosoever abides in Him sins not; and whosoever sins has not seen Him nor known Him.” And later on, more expressly: “Whosoever is born of God commits not sin; for His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin use he is born of God.”

[9] But for establishing their proposition these texts are not effective. For one does not say: “charity never falls away” on the ground that he who has charity does not sometimes lose it, since the Apocalypse (2:4) says: “I have somewhat against you because you hast left your first charity.” But “charity never falls away” was said because, when all other gifts of the Holy Spirit (which essentially contain some imperfection—the spirit of prophecy, for example, and this kind of thing) “shall be made void… when that which is perfect is come” (1 Cor. 13:8, 10), then in that state of perfection charity shall abide.

[10] But the remarks taken from the Epistle of John are said for this reason: The gifts of the Holy Spirit by which a man is adopted or born again as a son of God have of themselves power enough to be able to preserve a man without sin, and a man cannot sin who lives by those gifts. He can, for all that, act against them, and sin by departing from them. For “whosoever is born of God… cannot sin” was said just as though one should say that “the hot cannot cool.” What is hot, nevertheless, can be made cool, and then it will make cool. Or it was said as though one should say that “the just man does no unjust things”; namely, in so far as he is just.

http://dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles4.htm#70