Faith or work can save us?

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“lanman87 said:
De_Maria said:
That sentence is a contradiction within itself. Something can’t be a reward and be free at the same time.
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It can and frequently is. Your denial to the contrary notwithstanding.

God rewards faith and good works with the reward of eternal life:

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
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I have to commend this web site for allowing free thought outside of a Roman Catholic perspective. This is a step in the right direction.
 
tgGodsway said:
I have to commend this web site for allowing free thought outside of a Roman Catholic perspective. This is a step in the right direction.
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I agree. From what I can tell the moderators on this site allow for divergent opinions and perspectives as long as the posters are respectful to each other.
 
Hello Ianman87,. … I’ve been chewing over this whole view on what is called progressive justification. Have your heard about this on this site?
 
tgGodsway said:
Hello Ianman87,. … I’ve been chewing over this whole view on what is called progressive justification. Have your heard about this on this site?
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Yes, I wasn’t familiar with Catholic Theology back in April when I joined this forum. I’ve gotten quiet the education. 🤯 I’ve also read a couple of books from Catholic Apologist and have watched a few youtube videos.
 
I was raised in the faith and filled with the Spirit @21 years old. But I wanted more and I left. That was in 81.
 
But no one ever explained what I call “pending” justification. And I can’t seem to communicate biblical justification in a way that makes sense to them.
 
tgGodsway said:
But no one ever explained what I call “pending” justification. And I can’t seem to communicate biblical justification in a way that makes sense to them.
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From what I can tell, justification, to a Roman Catholic, is an ongoing process. They combine the Reformed doctrines of Justification and Sanctification to be just Justification. And that our works play a part in that Justification. I have a book by Reformed Theologian and Pastor R.C. Sproul that says this.
Part of the disagreement over justification stems from the meaning of the word justification itself. The English word justification is derived from the Latin term, justifcare, which literally means “to make righteous”. The early Latin fathers, who studied scriptures by means of the Vulgate rather than the Septuagint…In the development of doctrine of justification in Rome, the idea emerged that justification occurs after sanctification. That is, in order to be declared just, we first must be sanctified to the point that we exhibit a righteousness that is acceptable to God.

The Protestant Reformation, which followed the revival of the study of antiquities, focused on the Greek meaning of the concept of justification, which was the word dikaioo, which means “to declare righteous” rather than to make righteous. So, in Protestantism, justification was understood to come before the process of sanctification.
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He goes on to say:
Protestants believe that a person is justified when the righteousness of Christ is imputed or credited to his account. We likewise believe that our sins were imputed to Christ on the cross, that is, they were placed in His account, and He paid for them.
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Rome believes in infusion, which is the view that the righteousness of Christ is actually put into the believer, so that the person is actually righteous. The righteousness of Christ is not simply credited to the person’s account, it actually becomes the person’s possession
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Later in the chapter Sproul gives a formula that shows the difference between the Catholic and Protestant views.
He says the Catholic view is something like this: Faith+works=justification while the Protestant view is faith=justification + works.
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The name of the Book is Catholics and Protestants: Are We Together I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to know the differences between RCC theology and Reformed Theology.
 
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Thank you for the info. I did not know this. I happen to like Dr. RC Sproul and have a few of his books, I will purchase this book. Thanks so much.
 
Hi, T!

I think that you confuse God’s irrevocable Gifts with man’s “right” to God’s irrevocable Gifts.

God does not Remove His Love, Mercy or Justice from the world. It is man who, through freewill, partakes of God’s Gifts or rejects them:
30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today: I set before you life or death, blessing or curse. Choose life, then, so that you and your descendants may live, 30:20a in the love of Yahweh your God, obeying his voice, clinging to him; for in this your life consists, (Deuteronomy)
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Maran atha!

Angel
 
…again, that’s a very wonderful understanding… ‘all is grand and dandy, so feel free to multiply your sins and reject God, as long as you claim eternal an irrevocable salvation…’

Not once did Jesus or any of the Apostles Teach that understanding.

Salvation and God’s Grace are irrevocable; yet, man retains his freewill to accept or reject them:
11:23 ‘He who is not with me is against me; and he who does not gather with me scatters. (St. Luke)
5:24 You cannot belong to Christ Jesus unless you crucify all self-indulgent passions and desires. 5:25 Since the Spirit is our life, let us be directed by the Spirit. (Galatians)
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Maran atha!

Angel
 
Not manipulation but responsibility and obligations:
6:17 But anyone who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with him. 6:18 Keep away from fornication. All the other sins are committed outside the body; but to fornicate is to sin against your own body. 6:19 Your body, you know, is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you since you received him from God. You are not your own property; 6:20 you have been bought and paid for. That is why you should use your body for the glory of God. (1 Corinthians)
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Of course in non-Catholic theology these things do not really come into play–‘just claim your salvation, and God’s obligated to save you!’

Maran atha!

Angel
 
lanman87 said:
Paul is comparing believers to non-believers. The unbelievers are the unrighteous, the believers used to be that way but since they have come to Christ they have been made a new creation, the old things have passed away.
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Hi, Ian!

So you believe that once saved always saved, that all man has to do is claim Jesus is Lord?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Does anyone believe that the OP was interested in a faith vs works debate?
 
lanman87 said:
So the context is that God will honor his gifts and calling to the Nation of Israel and that in some point in the future “when the full number of Gentiles come to Christ” the Nation of Israel will be saved.

So while this is dealing specifically with the nation of Israel, the principal is true for us as well. God doesn’t take back His gifts. He will do what he says.
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Correct!

But the Gifts are conditional:
9:62 Jesus said to him, ‘Once the hand is laid on the plough, no one who looks back is fit for the kingdom of God’. (St. Luke)
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We cannot make Jesus or the Holy Spirit part of our unrighteousness:
10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot take your share at the table of the Lord and at the table of demons. (1 Corinthians)
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Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, De Maria!

…and non-Catholics refuse to accept all of Scriptures:
11:18 but still, even if you think yourself superior to the other branches, remember that you do not support the root; it is the root that supports you. 11:19 You will say, ‘Those branches were cut off on purpose to let me be grafted in!’ True, 11:20 they were cut off, but through their unbelief; if you still hold firm, it is only thanks to your faith. Rather than making you proud, that should make you afraid. 11:21 God did not spare the natural branches, and he is not likely to spare you. 11:22 Do not forget that God can be severe as well as kind: he is severe to those who fell, and he is kind to you, but only for as long as he chooses to be, otherwise you will find yourself cut off too, 11:23 and the Jews, if they give up their unbelief, grafted back in your place. God is perfectly able to graft them back again; (Romans)
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Salvation is not found on clauses or Scriptural contract or on self-assurance or on self-reliance. It is God’s Gift, as is Grace, but it is According to God’s Way not man’s ways. If we folly and presume eternally save while relying on methodology and manipulation of Scriptures we will be removed and burnt:
15:4 Make your home in me, as I make mine in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, but must remain part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. 15:6 Anyone who does not remain in me is like a branch that has been thrown away – he withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire, and they are burnt. (St. John)
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Maran atha!

Angel
 
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This is fully incomprehensible… it’s that ole Papist mentality… free thought?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Hi, A!

Unless a person returns to the thread with redefinition or responds to issues that arise there’s no way to tell; however, this is not the first or last thread where tangents will emerge and even overtake the initial topic.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
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