Faith or work can save us?

[RoseofMary1]

In John 14:15, Jesus said: If you love me, keep my commandments. Mathew Chapter 25 describes Jesus judging people according to what they did or did not do for others. Our faith must produce acts. As St. Paul said, even the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not meritorious unless they are used with love.

 

[De_Maria]

tgGodsway4h

Just wondering, did you ever figure out the blockquote function?

Hello Ianman87,. … I’ve been chewing over this whole view on what is called progressive justification. …

I hope you don’t mind my jumping in here. The best illustration of progressive justification that I can offer, from the Bible, is Abraham.

Note that he was justified from Genesis 12. At that point, he was described as God’s friend. And at that point, he came to faith and obeyed God. Thus, he was justified, since we don’t believe that God befriends obstinate and disobedient sinners.

After years of obeying God and going where God commanded, God appeared to him again and made him a promise that his children would be born of his loins. His faithful response elicited God’s proclamation that he was a just man. Gen 15:6.

After many more years of obeying God, God tested his faith by issuing the command to sacrifice his son, Isaac. Abraham passed the test and God again proclaimed him just. Gen 22:18.

But no one ever explained what I call “pending” justification.

We’ve explained it. But it seems to be the case that the concept is so foreign to your understanding that it goes right past you.

And I can’t seem to communicate biblical justification in a way that makes sense to them.

That’s not true. At least I, believe that I understand what you’ve communicated as your understanding of biblical justification. But we don’t agree that your understanding is correct. We believe that biblical justification is that which is taught by the Catholic Church and which you call “progressive or pending” justification.

 

[ajcstr]

I am in another thread on this topic in the Non-Catholic section, we are over 1400 posts and still going strong! Great thing, lots of dialog and some of the same people. In that post, the OP asked for non-Catholic views.

In this case, its pretty obvious that the OP was unsure about answering objections to their faith and was asking for Catholic teaching on the matter. I see it all the time but I often wonder what the motive is here. Its like asking “what is the best paint to use in a bedroom?” and getting the answer from a paperhanger, “why do you want to paint?”

 

[jcrichton]

…sorry, I thought that you were surmising that tangents have risen and that the OP did not seem to reengage.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tgGodsway]

really…?? what free will?

 

[lanman87]

am in another thread on this topic in the Non-Catholic section, we are over 1400 posts and still going strong! Great thing, lots of dialog and some of the same people. In that post, the OP asked for non-Catholic views.

In this case, its pretty obvious that the OP was unsure about answering objections to their faith and was asking for Catholic teaching on the matter. I see it all the time but I often wonder what the motive is here. Its like asking “what is the best paint to use in a bedroom?” and getting the answer from a paperhanger, “why do you want to paint?”

Sorry if I broke board etiquette. I was responding to a specific question and things kinda snowballed.

 

[tgGodsway]

No… Abraham wasn’t justified in Genesis 12. You interpret the chapter to mean he was justified. This is an implicit inference. This is not the way anyone should build doctrine. Genesis has only one justification where God Himself says explicitly I’ve accounted your belief as “righteousness=justification.” God’s declaration was based solely on Abraham’s faith, apart from works lest his should boast. James understood it in this way.

 

[jcrichton]

…well the first was followed by the second.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[tgGodsway]

Actually Ianman87 just gave a great explanation of progressive justification at #149. It really helped me to understand why you guys can’t see the most obvious meaning of scripture.

By the way, Ianman87, I ordered the book. I love RC SPROUL. a great theologian in the reformation.

 

[Brendan]

De_Maria:

Therefore, you have just described a gift with strings.

Yes, the only requirement is is faith alone, which in its fullness means belief, trust and love. None of those are works. They are all internal to the heart not external acts of righteousness However, they produce external acts if someone genuinely has faith.

Actually, they ARE works. Faith itself is a work, it is something that WE do. God does not believe for us, we are obligated to to that, It is an ACTION that we consent to and perform.

Likewise, God does not trust in Himself for us, that too is an ACTION that we consent to and perform.

Likewise with love.

EVERYTHING that you mention, Faith, Trust and Love are works. God gives us the Gift of Grace, so that we might perform them. But the action is still ours. God does not do them for us.

 

[De_Maria]

In this case, its pretty obvious that the OP was unsure about answering objections to their faith and was asking for Catholic teaching on the matter. I see it all the time but I often wonder what the motive is here. Its like asking “what is the best paint to use in a bedroom?” and getting the answer from a paperhanger, “why do you want to paint?”

I’m not sure if you’re objecting or just curious. I’ve been a member of CA since its inception and this is the type of discussion I’m accustomed to. The only requirement that CA has always enforced is politeness.

As for the OP. The question was how to respond to Protestants who preach faith alone. If he is still reading his thread, I think he’s gotten a lot of first hand examples of how to respond.

Does that help?

 

[De_Maria]

Sorry if I broke board etiquette. I was responding to a specific question and things kinda snowballed.

In my opinion, neither you nor anyone else has broken board etiquette. We are all on topic and have continued the discussion in a polite manner. That’s the basic rule. Stay on topic and be polite. The topic is whether faith alone or faith and works can save us.

 

[De_Maria]

really…?? what free will?

The essence of free will is the right to choose. God has given us that right and it is recorded in Scripture:

Deuteronomy 30:19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

[tgGodsway]

Well if faith was a work, why would the Apostle Paul say we are saved by grace through faith, … apart from works…?? Paul draws a contrast between the two.

Faith is to believe something. good works as understood by the Jewish people and by the Apostles, has to do with good deeds and actions such as the “works of the Law.” But I suppose you could interject a point of character as a driving force behind a deed. But when Paul spoke specifically about how a man is saved, his words are clear: BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH… and APART FROM WORKS. Why? apart from works? Lest anyone should boast. Faith is the means, and grace is the privilege, while eternal salvation is the gift. Good works can only add to a completed work of God. And it will be good works that God will judge when we stand before Him.

 

[tgGodsway]

Yeah I hear you. I wasn’t challenging one’s ability to choose. I was challenging whether or not that ability is free. Free-will would have to mean that the decision is influenced neither by God or the devil. It is free of any bias or outside thought. Who has such a free will? not to mention the element of deception that runs prevalent in the world. So many factors that influence one’s choices. In the end, he does make a choice, but to say it is free, seems to be a stretch.

Secondly, the natural man does not understand the things of the Spirit. He can only choose naturally. He cannot choose spiritually. Only a spiritual man can make spiritual choices.

 

[De_Maria]

No… Abraham wasn’t justified in Genesis 12…

We believe it was the beginning of his justification. But now it’s my turn to be confused. Don’t you believe that justification occurs when people first come to faith? Because Scripture says that Abraham came to faith in Genesis 12. Let me show you:

Hebrews 11:8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

That happened in Gen 12.

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. 4 So Abram departed, as the Lord had spoken unto him;

So, if Abraham came to faith when God first called him in Gen 12, why do you deny that he was justified at that time?

 

[De_Maria]

This is not the way anyone should build doctrine.

Protestants build doctrine from Scripture. Catholics don’t. Our Doctrines existed from the time of Christ. Scripture confirms these Doctrines. The Doctrines of Jesus Christ are the basis of Scripture.

 

[Brendan]

Well if faith was a work, why would the Apostle Paul say we are saved by grace through faith, … apart from works…?? Paul draws a contrast between the two.

Faith is to believe something. .

So who does the believing then, you or God? Who actually DOES the action of believing?

 

[tgGodsway]

Every man has a measure of faith. the unsaved have faith in something. My only point was that if we stick to the historical and inspirational record, Abraham was justified at a specific time and place by God, and there is no other record in Genesis. Some of your friends from this site insist Abraham was justified several times throughout Genesis.

I’m sure he expressed faith prior to his conversion and expressed faith after, but God only acted upon him to declare it one time. This is why this pattern can be understood in Paul’s writings. Surely you would see multiple justifications by other characters throughout the bible but especially in the New Testament. We do not. Justification is treated as an Act from Paul’s perspective.

 

[tgGodsway]

When the Holy Spirit moves upon an unsaved man while that man is hearing the message of the gospel. If this man will hear what the Spirit is saying internally, he will then act in faith to believe the message. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that who so ever believes in Him would not perish but have eternal life." The unsaved man’s faith ignites his spirit and he comes alive because he has believed the holy message of God. His new life is now declared JUST based upon all that Christ has done for Him at the cross. In that very moment this man’s spirit is regenerated and he is spiritually seated with Christ in heavenly places. He is spiritually in eternity. This is good news!