Faith or work can save us?

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Is there any difference between being made righteous and being declared righteous
When God is doing the declaring JEH, then we ARE made righteous.

So the answer is, it depends upon WHO is doing the “Declaring”.

If it is God, then in that act, we are MADE RIGHTEOUS by His declaration.

In Protestant theology, this is denied.

You are only “covered” with the “righteousness” of Christ (our Protestant friends assert).

Too many “ALONES” or “ONLYS” in Protestantism that are not in Scripture for me.

This is yet another example of such.
 
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Hi, J!

I think that you are caught in that loop… you know… faith alone–yet, neither Christ nor the Apostles Taught that Justification is gained by faith alone:
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? (St. James)
Salvation does not take place in a vacuum: Christ died for all of the sins, past, present, and future, so all one needs do is “believe” or “have faith.” Rather, we are Called to Fellowship with Christ:
3 Now you are clean by reason of the word, which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine: you the branches: he that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for without me you can do nothing. 6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. (St. John 15)
15 And because from thy infancy thou hast known the holy scriptures, which can instruct thee to salvation, by the faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice, 17 That the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work. (2 Timothy 3)
Maran atha!

Angel
 
St. Paul’s letter to the Galatians…clearly teaches we are saved by grace through faith and not by works of the law. You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? [those teachers of the law-not just the ceremonial law]. Before your eyes Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified…How do you know when you’ve done enough, well enough, when at death all temptation attacks. “If only” “I wish I had never”. Yes it’s fine to beg for true mercy at the end, but if that mercy is enough then, then why not earlier when in health we sought to add to our salvation by our efforts?
 
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Why does Romans 2 indicate God will render judgement to every man according to his works?

Why does Romans 1 list sins that lead to death?

Why does James 2 indicate we are justified by works and NOT by faith only? And that faith without works is dead ?

Why does James 5 indicate we confess our sins to be saved

Why does Matt 24 indicate we must persevere to the end to be saved?

Why does Phl 2 indicate we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling?

In Matt 25, why does Jesus send people to the lake of fire for not feeding the poor?

Why does 1 Peter 3 indicate baptism now saves?

Why does Acts 2 indicate we must repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins?

Why, in Luke 13, does Jesus say repent, or you will also perish?

Penal substitution ignores large portions of scripture.

Penal substitution renders these scriptures pointless or redundant, especially Romans 2.

It was invented by Protestant reformers Luther and Calvin in the 16th century. Modern.
 
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Actually…

The prodigal son - while still alive - was considered dead until he said he was sorry for his sins. (Luke 15)

Jesus commanded Peter to FORGIVE 70 x 7, AND said that those who do not listen to the Church are to be treated like Gentiles or tax collectors - which would obviously mean respectfully, but not to be consulted otherwise since they’ve rejected truth. (Matthew 18)

Some disciples left because they considered Christ’s teachings to be too hard - probably the first but obviously not the last time THAT would happen. (John 6)

And so much more. Keeping in mind that Jesus said hell would not prevail against HIS Church. That would be the ONE that HE built. He didn’t say He was building a bunch of them. Just one. And that would be the one through which God gave us His ACTUAL Bible - not those that have been compromised by men who HAVEN’T been authorized by God to speak on His behalf. (Luke 10)
 
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And why does Romans 11 say that we TOO can be removed if we become arrogant?

“Indeed you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.” (NAB)
 
Keeping in mind that Jesus said hell would not prevail against HIS Church. That would be the ONE that HE built. He didn’t say He was building a bunch of them. Just one. And that would be the one through which God gave us His ACTUAL Bible - not those that have been compromised by men who HAVEN’T been authorized by God to speak on His behalf. (Luke 10)
Agreed sainteriksrose He didn’t build “a bunch of them,” just one. This is funny to me. And I too am apart of this one Church. There are millions or maybe even billions of Church members around the world, who embrace the teaches of the Apostolic circle, and some of them come from the Roman Catholic persuasion. And YES, I agree, this ONE Church, at it’s foundation, gave us the scriptures to enjoy so that the Holy Spirit could teach us all things. 1st. John 2:27.
 
But He entrusted the interpretation of those Scriptures to the hierarchy of the Church He founded, not on anyone’s personal interpretation.
 
Paul was speaking of the Law of Moses. He obviously wasn’t speaking of natural law.

He also said in Galatians:

1Brothers, if someone is caught in a trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him with a spirit of gentleness. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2Carry one another’s burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the Law of Christ.
3If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
4Each one should test his own work. Then he will have reason to boast in himself alone, and not in someone else. 5For each one should carry his own load. 6However, the one who receives instruction in the word must share in all good things with his instructor. 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. Whatever a man sows, he will reap in return. 8The one who sows to please his flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; but the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

So according to Paul, we will reap what we sow in the next life good or bad. In other words, works matter in terms of salvation.
 
I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification

James 2:24 – the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Heb. 11:6 – faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 – the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works
 
2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 1:22-25 – it’s the “doers” who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.

James 2:17,26 – James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:19 – even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.

James 2:20 – do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God’s grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”

James 2:22 – faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.

James 4:17 – in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.

James 2:15-17 – here are the examples of the “works” to which James is referring – corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).

James 1:27 – another example of “works” is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.

James 2:25 – another example of “works” is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
 
The Pharisees were convinced that they alone had the right interpretation of scripture. Interpretation doesn’t belong to a single body, such as the Church at Rome, but to all who will be led by the Spirit of God. 1st John 2:27
 
Protestants believe that we are saved by faith only.
Some Protestants believe that, but by no means all of them.
 
Jesus and Apostles Teach that Works are Necessary for Justification

Matt. 5:2-11 – Jesus’ teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith – being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.

Matt. 5:16 – Jesus confirms this by teaching, “let your light shine before men that they may see your ‘good works’ and give glory to God.” Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.

Matt. 5:39-42 – give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.

Matt. 5:44-47 – this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.

Matt. 6:12 – forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Matt. 7:19-23 – just saying “Lord, Lord” and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.

Matt. 19:16-22 – Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus’ commandments.

Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 – Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work – an act of the intellect and will.

Mark 9:39 – Jesus said no one who does good works in His name will be able to soon after speak evil of Him. Good works justify us before God.

Luke 6:46-47 – the Lord asks us to do what he tells us, and that is to keep His commandments, not just “accept” Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Luke 6:20-38 – again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit – all these good works justify a man before God.
 
Luke 8:21 – Jesus says that His mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.

John 5:24 – note that “eternal life” here means sanctifying grace (the life of God within us). We can choose to fall from this grace.

John 5:36, 10:37-38 – Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ’s works to be more fully united with Him.

John 5:39-42 – knowing the Scriptures is not enough if you do not have love in your heart.

John 8:31-32 – Jesus requires works even from those who believe in Him. Mere belief is not enough.

John 13:34-35 – Jesus gives us a new commandment, that we love one another as He loves us. He commands love which is an act of our will.

John 14:15 – Jesus says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” This requires works, not just faith (and not faith alone).

John 14:21 – he who hears my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. This is doing good works for others.

John 15:8 – Jesus requires us to bear the good fruit of works if we are to be His disciples. These fruits are merits in Catholic teaching, all borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace.

John 15:10 – if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, as I have kept the Father’s commandments.

John 15:12 – this is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Love is both a cause and the fruit of our justification.

Rom. 12:10 – Paul commands us to love one another. Love is a good work, an act of the intellect and will, not just a feeling.

1 Cor. 3:8 – Paul teaches that he who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.

1 Cor. 13:2 – Paul teaches that if our faith moves mountains, but we have not the works of love, we are nothing indeed.

1 Cor. 13:13 – abide in faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Love is the greatest work which justifies us (not faith, and most importantly, not faith alone!)
 
1 Tim. 6:18-19 – we are to do good and be rich in good works thus laying up a good foundation for a chance at eternal life.

Titus 1:16 – people claim to know God, but their deeds deny Him. Like Jesus, it is our works that testify to our faith in Christ.

1 John 2:3-5 – and by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. This requires good works, not faith alone.

1 John 3:23 – God’s commandment is to believe in His Son Jesus and love one another. Belief is not enough, but good works to perfect that belief.

1 John 4:7-21 – and this commandment we have from Him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. John gives us repeated exhortations to love one another.

1 John 5:2-3 – we know we love God and God’s children when we keep His commandments. We need to love which is manifested in good works and not faith alone.

2 John 6 – we must love one another and keep Jesus’ commandments. We must cooperate with Christ’s grace.
 
James817…Paul was definitely addressing the Mosaic Law but also all “law” as is made clear in context throughout chapters 1 & 2…your argument is one of the two used by Roman Catholics in defense of adding to Christ’s work in salvation by our works. Paul is explicit that we add nothing to our salvation-except our sin-and if our faith is in anything we think, say, or do, we think more of ourselves and our own capacity than Christ and his work. Again, I tremble at the thought of standing before God and even a thought of explaining to him that I did something (anything) that helped save me. Stealing Christ’s glory–as though it were possible. It is at least an American way of thinking “I must do my part, God could never love me by his own choosing”, even though Scripture says this also. I can’t reply with the many ways OT and NT say these things as time is limited. I would suggest looking at God’s word in light of the sufficiency of his doing and trust that rather than thinking how you can help him save you. If you must do something, you’d best to it perfectly as that still demanded by our just God. Either that or trust him and what he says and what he has done in Christ.
 
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Also, Paul here is speaking nothing of grace. The question: Was Christ’s death on the cross sufficient to save? Scripture (Jesus, Paul) and others say yes. Words like “sins of the whole world.” “For all mankind” “make you the father of a great nation” and such, addressing who God planned to save and how do not allow for our us to do anything other that believe and trust.
 
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