Faith plus Works = Salvation

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allischalmers:
OK! what then are the works that save us

allischalmers
Grace saves us, we are promised the Gift of Grace through Faith and we accept the Gift of Grace via the works of Prayer, Fasting, and Almsgiving\Charity

Mt 25 describes the Catholic understanding of Faith and Works very well.
 
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allischalmers:
Just one question. What pacificly do Catholics mean by WORKS?
I think that I know where this is heading (but I may be wrong).

Grace is a gift from God. Natural works cannot bring someone into a state of grace, but salutary works done in a state of grace are no longer merely natural works and, therefore, bring us closer to God. These could be works of mercy and charity, for example.

Does this help?
 
Works is variable due to the particular vocation we have. Whatever vocation we have vowed to, the works that are attached to that vocation is what we need to do. Eitherway, we are all called to holiness in whatever state of life we are in.

Sandusky-man now you’ve really confused me, you added a positive thought on this thread regarding works----when all the while I thought you believed in predestination. I don’t see how anything is necessary for the predestined. How does that work? I know text does not include intonation…no sarcasm implied or otherwise in my question. It’s Advent and we need to practice Charity.

in XT.
 
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Mickey:
Okay, James is teaching that works show true faith. But we Catholics insist that James 2:14–26 shows that works are more than mere evidence of faith. Works actually justify. James is speaking about works growing out of faith. If works of faith are not a part of our justification, then it is hard to understand why James would say, as he does, that “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (Jas. 2:21). You may remember how Paul said that Abraham was not justified by works but by faith. Paul means that Abraham was not justified by keeping the Old Testament law, while James means that Abraham was justified by doing a work that grew out of his faith in God.

by Kenneth J. Howell, Catholic Answers
Glad to read your post. I had visited the CARM website to try to defend the CC, but got blasted right out of the water. I referred to Apologetics documents and was laughed (told I bought it “hook-line-and-sinker” which infuriated me) at so I left with my tail between my legs. I’m trying!
 
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Mickey:
Okay, James is teaching that works show true faith. But we Catholics insist that James 2:14–26 shows that works are more than mere evidence of faith. Works actually justify. James is speaking about works growing out of faith.
Right, Mickey, they are evidence of saving faith. I know that you believe works justify, but that contradicts scripture.
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Mickey:
If works of faith are not a part of our justification, then it is hard to understand why James would say, as he does, that “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” (Jas. 2:21).
It is not at all hard to understand. James is simply illustrating the point that he wants to make. The context begins in chapter 1 around v 22. That salvation is a gracious of gift of God has already been made by James in 1:17,18. The whole point of the passage is a visible manifestation of faith in works, not so God knows who is justified, but believers. Believers can know who has a true saving faith by works. Again, God already knows whose justified, as He is the justifier (Rom 3:26; 4:5).

The statement “if someone says he has faith" is key to understanding. This is between humans and humans, not humans and God. God knows who is justified, as He justifies. Read Rom 4, Abraham was justified long before Isaac was born (Gen 15:1-6). The basis of Abraham’s justification was his belief/faith in the ability and trustworthiness of God. Belief/faith have the same Greek root, as do righteousness/justification have the same Greek root. Righteousness and justification are inseparable; they interchangeably mean the same thing.

If, as you claim, James is saying that works justify, then he and Paul are at odds, as Paul clearly, and repeatedly says, works do not justify.

In v18 James says, “show me…I will show you,” and v 24, by works “you see” that a man is justified.

James here is not talking about the cause of justification, or of the manner of obtaining righteousness, but that his objective is only to show that good works are always connected with faith; therefore, when he says Abraham was justified by works, he is speaking of the proof, not to God, but to Abraham, and those who would read the account in the future.

Salvation has always been, and will always be by faith alone (Rom 1:17); sanctification continues, and true faith is apparent to others by works, as Jesus says, “you will recognize them by their fruits.” He already knows who is justified

Salvation is a one time act, as illustrated by Rom 5:1, in which Pauls says, “having been justified…," past perfect tense, i.e., an action completed in the past with continuing results. In Rom 3:28 Paul says, “…a man is justified by faith apart from works of law,”, the definite article “the" is absent in the Greek; law is in the genitive case, literally, “of law,” any law, imposed by anyone, anytime, anywhere. There is no specificity in the verse as to what law.

James is merely telling one that he may recognize the true faith of himself, and others, by the presence or absence of works.
 
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AquinasXVI:
Sandusky-man now you’ve really confused me, you added a positive thought on this thread regarding works----when all the while I thought you believed in predestination. I don’t see how anything is necessary for the predestined. How does that work?
Predestination does not preclude repentance, faith, the call to holiness, obedience, use of one’s spiritual gifts etc.

I don’t know if that answers your question.
 
**Clement of Rome **

“Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words…Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith?..So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men.” (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4).
 
Hi Sandusky,

When Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac on the altar, there was no one else around but him and Isaac and the Lord.

So just who was Abraham being justified to? You said the text in James is about humans and humans, not humans and God. Was it Isaac?

Abraham has first experienced justification in Genesis 15 when he believed what God said would happen. There is faith.

Now in Genesis 22, all these years later, Abraham is justified by obeying God. There we have works.

We are justified by faith AND works. There is no contradiction between Paul and James because Paul never says faith ALONE, but James does say faith AND works. Paul is talking about the works of the Jewish law. James is talking about the works of grace.

Hope this helps.

Peace,
Gene
 
Mickey said:

Mickey,

I have a plane to catch, and I won’t be back home for a week, so take some time and tell me what Akin is saying. Each time I am linked to one of his articles I reflexively laugh. He does not offer any exegesis, but only opinion.

However, he usually does state the truth close to the top before he goes into his linguistic gymnastics.

Here is the truth as stated by Akin:
Jimmy Akin:
The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).
There you have it. Rome says you are justified by grace through faith alone, but does not believe that faith is sufficient to carry one through, and that works must be performed to justify, as indicated by Akin’s use of the term “initial justification" which is nowhere found in scripture.
Jimmy Akin:
When Catholics point this out, many Protestants attempt damage control by attacking the faith being discussed in James 2, saying it is an inferior or bad faith. Some do this by labeling it “dead faith.” They treat “faith without works is dead” (vv. 17, 26) as if it were a definition and say, “If faith does not produce works then it is dead faith. It is this dead faith that James says won’t save us.”

But reading the context shows that James is not using the phrase as a definition. He is not defining the term “dead faith.” That term does not appear in the text. He is stating a fact, not offering a definition. The interpretation flies apart at the seams when we test it by substituting “dead faith” wherever the text mentions faith.
Substitute “faith alone” wherever the text mentions faith. So what?

Faith without works is dead. What’s dead without works? Faith. What do you call faith that is without works? Dead faith.

Let me paraphrase as Akin does in the 12th paragraph of his article:

The sense of what James is saying is: “If someone says he has faith, but no works, that faith, by itself, is dead; can that faith save him? No; it is not saving faith.”

That is not a definition, but a fact.
 
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Mickey:
Clement of Rome

“Let us therefore join with those to whom grace is given by God. Let us clothe ourselves in concord, being humble and self- controlled, keeping ourselves far from all backbiting and slander, being justified by works and not by words…Why was our Father Abraham blessed? Was it not because of his deeds of justice and truth, wrought in faith?..So we, having been called through his will in Christ Jesus, were not justified through ourselves or through our own wisdom or understanding or piety or works which we wrought in holiness of heart, but through faith, whereby the almighty God justified all men.” (Letter to the Corinthians 30:3, 31:2, 32:3-4).
Clement and I agree. Not a “said faith,” as Clement says above. Anyone can say he has faith, Abraham proved it, which is James’ point.
 
**Origen **

“Whoever dies in his sins, even if he profess to believe in Christ, does not truly believe in him; and even if that which exists without works be called faith, such faith is dead in itself, as we read in the epistle bearing the name of James” (Commentaries on John 19:6 [A.D. 226-232]).

**Cyprian **

“You, then, who are rich and wealthy, buy for yourself from Christ gold purified in fire, for with your filth, as if burned away in the fire, you can be like pure gold, if you are cleansed by almsgiving and by works of justice. Buy yourself a white garment so that, although you had been naked like Adam and were formerly frightful and deformed, you may be clothed in the white garment of Christ. You who are a matron rich and wealthy, anoint not your eyes with the antimony of the devil, but with the salve of Christ, so that you may at last come to see God, when you have merited before God both by your works and by your manner of living” (Works and Almsgiving 14 [A.D. 252]).
 
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allischalmers:
Just one question. What pacificly do Catholics mean by WORKS?
What pacifically do you want to know?
We read the entire book of James, and do not build man made doctrine out of one verse that is taken out of context.

Thankyou for your taught assumption that our Catholic beliefs are wrong, specifically today on the works topic.
 
St John Chrysostom

" ‘He that believes in the Son has everlasting life.’ ‘Is it enough, then, to believe in the Son,’ someone will say, ‘in order to have everlasting life?’ By no means! Listen to Christ declare this himself when he says, ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord! Lord!” shall enter into the kingdom of heaven’; and the blasphemy against the Spirit is alone sufficient to cast him into hell. But why should I speak of a part of our teaching? For if a man believe rightly in the Father and in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, but does not live rightly, his faith will avail him nothing toward salvation" (Homilies on the Gospel of John
31:1 [circa A.D. 391]).
 
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allischalmers:
Just one question. What pacificly do Catholics mean by WORKS?
It would be more accurate to say that:
Salvation = God’s grace, which we respond to through faith that is expressed through works. If works are not a result of faith, the faith is dead.
 
allischalmers:

It sounds as if you’re asking what works you need to accomplish to earn your way into heaven. But Catholics don’t believe in earning salvation.

Grace is given and the Holy Spirit prompts us to do the good works “prepared in advance for us to do”. If we continually say no to the promptings of the Holy Spirit the gift of grace within us will wither and fade and one is in danger of rejecting the gift of salvation.

But if we respond to the promptings of the Holy Spirit we will grow in faith and grace and protect ourselves from the temptations and traps of Satan who would pull us of the path.

The question you need to ask is not what works we need to do to be saved. But what works has God prepared for you…what is it that He wants YOU to do. Then follow His lead.

Hope this helps
 
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allischalmers:
So a lot of people show acts of love and a lot of people do realy nice things for people in need. Take people like fireman and policeman who risk their life to save other peoples lives. Alot of these people may never even go to church , what about their salvation?
Just as faith (belief) without works is dead, works without faith are also dead. Faith and works are a package–they do not exist in isolation, and this package is specifically a response to the free gift that God offers us. The faith/works package is how we receive the gift.

The gift is free because we do not earn it, but we must respond in order to receive it.
 
With out Faith there is no salvation. With out good works with faith there is no salvation. With out baptism with faith there is no salvation.

It is all or none. To not accept one is a total rejection of God.
 
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