Faith Saves

[Jim_Baur]

If I understood Tom Baker, Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, on his radio show (KFUO, Law and Gospel), he agreed that all Christians baptized in a sacramental manner have the same *substance *of faith in their souls.

All Christians have the same faith, that is, the substance (“hupostasis”) of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

If it is FAITH that saves, then all Christians are saved.

Therefore I asked him on his radio show, Law and Gospel, on Friday, October 21, 2005. It was about twenty minutes into the show. I asked him about the substance of faith.

I asked him: “Do all baptized Christians receive the same faith?” “Yes,” he said.

I asked him: “Does faith save those Christians?” “Yes,” he said.

I asked him: “Are Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic believers saved?” “Yes,” he said.

In other words, I asked him about the objective reality of faith in one’s soul.

In other words, I asked him about the ontic reality of faith in one’s soul.

In other words, I asked him about the ontological reality of faith in one’s soul.

The subjective interpretation of different denominations was not considered. This distinction is huge. It seems (I do not know) to me that many “faith only” Christians are worried about the subjective aspect of faith, and the denomination’s interpretation of faith. They do not contemplate the objective reality of faith. Also, there is a lot of history and misunderstanding involved.

I am a Roman Catholic and I believe the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

I found this important and interesting. Therefore I thought I would share it.

Side moral note: I cry when I realize that I have the same faith of the saints. They have done so many good works with, in, and through Jesus Christ; and I have done so little on my own. Please pray for me!!!

 

[banjo]

Jim,

St.Paul begins his epistle to the Romans (1:5) and ends it (16:26) with the same phrase about faith; “to bring about the obedience of faith.”
The following quote is from The Thought of St. Paul by Fr. William Most. "Thus in Romans 1:5 Paul speaks of the ‘obedience of faith,’ that is, the obedience that faith is. The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, a standard Protestant reference work, in the fifth volume, a Supplement, on p. 333 says precisely this, that Pauline faith includes ‘the obedience that faith is.’ But faith which includes obedience cannot justify disobedience.
We can’t earn salavation but we can lose it.

Yes, I’ll pray for you and you do the same for me. You’re not alone in feeling there is more you need to do. Keep trying. Remember, for us things may be impossible but with God all things are possible.

 

[trustmc]

Jim Baur:

I asked him: “Does faith save those Christians?” “Yes,” he said.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but does not the Cathechism teach that that it is grace that saves us through faith, and that we are not actually saved by faith?

If this is the case, what then can be made of those biblical passages where Christ proclaims to his followers that their faith has saved them? Put more directly, from what exactly are these followers being saved? The answer is that they are being saved by faith from their temporal condition rather than their mortal condition.

In each instance, His followers were saved from malignancies such as blindness, demonic possession, hemophelia, etc. but not their from their sinful condition. Only grace through faith saves us from spiritual mortality according to St. Paul. In this sense, faith is said to be salvific faith*,* but never saving faith.

Having faith in Christ can save us from temporal conditions, but only grace saves us from our mortal condition. Some protestants do not make this distinction well and oftentimes wind up refering to being saved by faith when speaking of eternal salvation. Such mistatements make it sound like we earn our salvation by our faith. I wish I could have heard Tom Baker speaking for myself so that I could have gently called him on the mat.

Mike

 

[Jim_Baur]

banjo:

Jim,

St.Paul begins his epistle to the Romans (1:5) and ends it (16:26) with the same phrase about faith; “to bring about the obedience of faith.”

Thanks for this insight. I shall add it to my list.

 

[Jim_Baur]

I think the big point is: The objective reality of faith. This much is true: all Christians have the same faith dwelling in their souls.

I do not agree with Tom Baker.

I believe the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I do not know all of our teachings on salvation, but I believe them. I do not understand all of the teachings on salvation, but I believe them.

I found it ironic that he said that Roman Catholics are saved by faith, too.

From their point of view, why all the worry about not understanding faith and works?

If faith saves, then I cannot mess it up with my lack of understanding. I cannot end of in Hell just because I am too stupid or lazy to study.

You can hear the conversation on their web site: http://www.kfuo.org/LG.htm.

It was on Friday, October 21, 2005. It was about twenty minutes into the hour.

Again, I think the big point is: The objective reality of faith. This much is true: all Christians have the same faith dwelling in their soul.

 

[banjo]

trustmc:

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but does not the Cathechism teach that that it is grace that saves us through faith, and that we are not actually saved by faith?

If this is the case, what then can be made of those biblical passages where Christ proclaims to his followers that their faith has saved them? Put more directly, from what exactly are these followers being saved? The answer is that they are being saved by faith from their temporal condition rather than their mortal condition.

In each instance, His followers were saved from malignancies such as blindness, demonic possession, hemophelia, etc. but not their from their sinful condition. Only grace through faith saves us from spiritual mortality according to St. Paul. In this sense, faith is said to be salvific faith*,* but never saving faith.

Having faith in Christ can save us from temporal conditions, but only grace saves us from our mortal condition. Some protestants do not make this distinction well and oftentimes wind up refering to being saved by faith when speaking of eternal salvation. Such mistatements make it sound like we earn our salvation by our faith. I wish I could have heard Tom Baker speaking for myself so that I could have gently called him on the mat.

Mike

The CCC, under the Characteristics of Faith, states that faith is a grace. Then it continues…

CCC-153 “Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, whomoves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and ‘makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth’”

CCC-154 “Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act.”

CCC-155 “In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace.‘Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace.’”

It, the CCC, also states that faith is necessary for salvation.

CCC-161 “Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. ‘Since without faith it is impossible to please [God]’ and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘but he who endures to the end.’”

You are right, we must have grace. It is a gift from God. “As a gift, however, a person can accept or reject it. If accepted, it then must be cooperated with. Grace is given so that the will of God may be done. Grace must be put into action through those who receive it.”
Catholicism for Dummies p.11

I see your point, grace leads to faith. I look at it as grace/faith; hard to separate. Of course, that’s only my take on it.

 

[BlestOne]

Here is the very simple explanation…

If a person has faith, they have to have obedience to God’s word. Faith and obedience go hand in hand with each other, as does works…If you believe that you are called to live a Christ-like life and you have the faith and obedience to God then you will strive to be Christ-like and since Christ was all about works…so should you be… It is as simple as that!