Faith "vs" Works -OR- Faith "unto" Works

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E_Thrower_II

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Why is it that anytime we come to someone who does not believe the same things we believe, defenses go up and “vs” has to become apart of the conversation? Why is it, if we all believe in Christ that we cannot simply enjoy discussing Him? We are people, we WILL disagree. If a disagreement in scripture or interpretation is all that it takes to “OFFEND” you… you have become the offense. If the love of God is in you, it should show. Be patient and keep going!

2 Tim 3:13-17
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
E_Thrower_II said:
Why is it that anytime we come to someone who does not believe the same things we believe, defenses go up and “vs” has to become apart of the conversation? Why is it, if we all believe in Christ that we cannot simply enjoy discussing Him? We are people, we WILL disagree. If a disagreement in scripture or interpretation is all that it takes to “OFFEND” you… you have become the offense.
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Speaking for myself, I’m not offended if someone says’ “Faith vs Works” or “Faith unto Works” as I say “Faith PLUS Works.” The only time my defenses go up, as it relates to spiritual matters, is when a militant person vainly attempts to redefine dogma based on their personal prejudices and distain for the Church. As though they have a direct connection with the Holy Spirit and know the intentions and will of God. Then, the gloves come off :D. Otherwise, I can have a pleasant conversation with a Protestant and will be able to clearly maintain a charitable tone.
 
Tietjen said:
Speaking for myself, I’m not offended if someone says’ “Faith vs Works” or “Faith unto Works” as I say “Faith PLUS Works.” The only time my defenses go up, as it relates to spiritual matters, is when a militant person vainly attempts to redefine dogma based on their personal prejudices and distain for the Church. As though they have a direct connection with the Holy Spirit and know the intentions and will of God. Then, the gloves come off :D. Otherwise, I can have a pleasant conversation with a Protestant and will be able to clearly maintain a charitable tone.
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Excellent!

Please, tell me your view of salvation and how it relates to as you say “Faith + Works.”
 
Tietjen said:
Speaking for myself, I’m not offended if someone says’ “Faith vs Works” or “Faith unto Works” as I say “Faith PLUS Works.” The only time my defenses go up, as it relates to spiritual matters, is when a militant person vainly attempts to redefine dogma based on their personal prejudices and distain for the Church. As though they have a direct connection with the Holy Spirit and know the intentions and will of God. Then, the gloves come off :D. Otherwise, I can have a pleasant conversation with a Protestant and will be able to clearly maintain a charitable tone.
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Gloves? What for? Even convinced a person punching him on the nose? Would you attract more flies with vinegar or with honey?

Get offended? Why? You dont bark back at dogs! (no offense to Protestants !!! It ia a metaphor)

My beloved late priest used to say: “Only offend me those I want”.
 
Pfaffenhoffen said:
Gloves? What for? Even convinced a person punching him on the nose? Would you attract more flies with vinegar or with honey?

Get offended? Why? You dont bark back at dogs! (no offense to Protestants !!! It ia a metaphor)

My beloved late priest used to say: “Only offend me those I want”.
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It’s a metophor. Relax.
 
E_Thrower_II said:
Why is it that anytime we come to someone who does not believe the same things we believe, defenses go up and “vs” has to become apart of the conversation? Why is it, if we all believe in Christ that we cannot simply enjoy discussing Him? We are people, we WILL disagree. If a disagreement in scripture or interpretation is all that it takes to “OFFEND” you… you have become the offense. If the love of God is in you, it should show. Be patient and keep going!

2 Tim 3:13-17
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Click to expand...
:confused:

Is this a carry-over conversation from another thread? I don’t see many people in the Scripture sub-forum getting offended by other interpretations. 🤷 Guess I missed something?
 
E_Thrower_II said:
Why is it that anytime we come to someone who does not believe the same things we believe, defenses go up and “vs” has to become apart of the conversation? Why is it, if we all believe in Christ that we cannot simply enjoy discussing Him? We are people, we WILL disagree. If a disagreement in scripture or interpretation is all that it takes to “OFFEND” you… you have become the offense. If the love of God is in you, it should show. Be patient and keep going!
Click to expand...
This is a good question and observation. However it is not one with a quick or easy answer.

Often time the “vs” that you refer to comes about two possible (or combined) sources. These are “how the comment is framed” and/or “how often the hearer has discussed this same issue in the (recent) past”. The first, if presented in a terse and challenging way, often elicits a terse response. The second, is the result of fatigue or frustration at needing to explain, yet again, the same persistent error…

This happens quite often here as new people come with the same misconceptions of Church teaching.

Having said this, I agree that we should be able to engage in conversation and even disagree amicably. This is possible when the parties are seeking greater understanding of each other and deeper understanding of the faith. Then they seek conversation in love. However we do occasionally find ourselves in conversation with those who are either a) seeking to convert us from our error and/or b) trying to tell us what the Church teaches. In such conversations there is no intent on the part of one party to engage in meaningful discussion.

In reference to the title of the tread and the relationship of Faith and Works, I have often found that people bring certain “meanings” and “understandings” to the table that don’t always mesh. It is very easy to find ourselves talking past each other because when one person says “works” he/she means something different than the other person is thinking. This often happens over issues like Baptism and Mass attendance etc. vs works of Charity.
Another aspect of the faith and works issue is how one defines faith and what faith contains within it if it is to be a faith that saves. It’s easy to make the declarative statement, “Saved by Faith”. That is, to me, a soundbite statement, until we come to an understanding of just what is meant by “faith”.
What is included in that term “faith”?
Often times (I have found) that the protestant sees works as springing from faith as presented in James letter. In this they agree that works are a necessary measure of ones faith. But, even though works is a necessary part of a saving faith, it’s impossible to get them to admit that works are necessary unto salvation…

My apologies if the above begins to sound like a rant…😊

After many years on this forum, and less time on some others, I have discovered, just as you say, that there is need to build bridges of understanding. But at the same time such understanding cannot be simply academic. It needs to be aimed toward building unity within the Body of Christ for unity is what Christ prayed for and what the Apostles, especially Paul exhorted us to.

Peace
James
 
Salvation is by grace unto faith and works. If our faith is by grace, so is our works which God has prepared in advance. Salvation is a process, not a one time deal. Initially we are justified by grace through faith and not by works when we are baptized into Christ. After that our justification increases as we are obedient through grace working in our lives. Abraham was justified by faith that was working. In Gen 15:6 he was justified by faith. But Hebrews says he had faith in Gen 11 when he obeyed God to leave the land. And James says he was justified by God in Gen 22 when he was willing to sacrifice his son. So, Faith without works is dead (read James 2:22-26). Faith and works are inseparable. Both faith and works are a gift of grace.

"And reckon that it is for your sakes we have been saying these things; for it is in our power, when we are examined, to deny that we are Christians; but we would not live by telling a lie. For, impelled by the desire of the eternal and pure life, we seek the abode that is with God, the Father and Creator of all, and hasten to confess our faith, persuaded and convinced as we are that they who have proved to God by their works that they followed Him, and loved to abide with Him where there is no sin to cause disturbance, can obtain these things. This, then, to speak shortly, is what we expect and have learned from Christ, and teach. "
  • Justin Martyr, Christian apologist, First Apology, AD 151, during Roman persecution
 
I say that salvation is by the fullness of faith, which is works.

The fullness of faith is faith-fullness, being faithful, atually doing what our faith demands of us.

So when my Evangelical friends say salvation is by faith, I say “Amen! And when you reach the fullness of faith you will be saved!”

-Tim-
 
JRKH said:
Another aspect of the faith and works issue is how one defines faith and what faith contains within it if it is to be a faith that saves. It’s easy to make the declarative statement, “Saved by Faith”. That is, to me, a soundbite statement, until we come to an understanding of just what is meant by “faith”.
What is included in that term “faith”?
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This is a great point, and one I’ll bring up quite often. IMO “faith” includes an awful lot. Including , believing that what Christ said is true … including what He said about how we should live our lives.

For example, do I really have faith in Christ if I don’t commit to living the way He wants me to live? Do I really believe in Christ if, like the foolish man who built his house upon sand, I hear his words and don’t put them into practice?
 
Corki said:
:confused:

Is this a carry-over conversation from another thread? I don’t see many people in the Scripture sub-forum getting offended by other interpretations. 🤷 Guess I missed something?
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lol… it’s ok.
 
JRKH said:
This is a good question and observation. However it is not one with a quick or easy answer.

Often time the “vs” that you refer to comes about two possible (or combined) sources. These are “how the comment is framed” and/or “how often the hearer has discussed this same issue in the (recent) past”. The first, if presented in a terse and challenging way, often elicits a terse response. The second, is the result of fatigue or frustration at needing to explain, yet again, the same persistent error…

This happens quite often here as new people come with the same misconceptions of Church teaching.

Having said this, I agree that we should be able to engage in conversation and even disagree amicably. This is possible when the parties are seeking greater understanding of each other and deeper understanding of the faith. Then they seek conversation in love. However we do occasionally find ourselves in conversation with those who are either a) seeking to convert us from our error and/or b) trying to tell us what the Church teaches. In such conversations there is no intent on the part of one party to engage in meaningful discussion.

In reference to the title of the tread and the relationship of Faith and Works, I have often found that people bring certain “meanings” and “understandings” to the table that don’t always mesh. It is very easy to find ourselves talking past each other because when one person says “works” he/she means something different than the other person is thinking. This often happens over issues like Baptism and Mass attendance etc. vs works of Charity.
Another aspect of the faith and works issue is how one defines faith and what faith contains within it if it is to be a faith that saves. It’s easy to make the declarative statement, “Saved by Faith”. That is, to me, a soundbite statement, until we come to an understanding of just what is meant by “faith”.
What is included in that term “faith”?
Often times (I have found) that the protestant sees works as springing from faith as presented in James letter. In this they agree that works are a necessary measure of ones faith. But, even though works is a necessary part of a saving faith, it’s impossible to get them to admit that works are necessary unto salvation…

My apologies if the above begins to sound like a rant…😊

After many years on this forum, and less time on some others, I have discovered, just as you say, that there is need to build bridges of understanding. But at the same time such understanding cannot be simply academic. It needs to be aimed toward building unity within the Body of Christ for unity is what Christ prayed for and what the Apostles, especially Paul exhorted us to.

Peace
James
Click to expand...
This is an excellent response and a good way to look at it. Easy to do when “making a point” is not a part of the idea but sincerely seeking to “build” or “edify” one another. The other thing I liked was the comment you made, "These are how the comment is framed and/or* how often the hearer has discussed this same issue in the (recent) pas*t.

Knowing this going into things really makes you examine yourself (behaviorally), which is what we should be making a habit of anyway.
 
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