Faith vs. Works

[holy_moly]

The Commandments are broken into 2 sections: 1 thru 3 refer to Love of God, 4 thru 10 refer to Love of Man. When asked which of the Commandments was the greatest, Christ’s replied with words to the affect , “…to love God with your whole heart, mind, spirit…and to love your neighbor as yourself”. If you read much, say like Thomas Merton, you hear the term ‘beatitude’ used. The term was somewhat confusing to me at first until I started thinking about “The Beatitudes” from the Sermon on the Mount. Blessed are the Peacemakers. Blessed are the Poor, Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for justice, etc. As we pass thru this portion of our lives, we are tasked to make decisions that can either avail us to God’s Unmerited Grace, or place us under God’s warranted Wrath. We are asked to feed the hungry, visit the sick and imprisoned, cloth the naked, etc. These are some of corporal works of mercy. They are intended to be acts of Unconditional Love: because you want to, because you bound by faith, because you love God. So, Faith in The Word of God [Jesus Christ] is essential to salvation (1 thru 3) but the work involved in our human acts of Love (4 thru 10) are equally also essential. You can’t say you truely love God [the Creator] without truely loving His creatures [the created]. You were made by certtain specifications: the image and likeness of God. It’s intended to be a life’s work. LIFE starts today!

To love God is an act of faith, to love your fellow man requires action/works. Together by God’s grace we are justified/saved.

 

[Mikejw]

Please alow me to quote part of a sermon from Paul Washer.

“We live in a day and age in Christianity where everyone in America believes they are saved
because one time in their life they prayed a prayer and asked Jesus to come into their
heart.
We know that men are saved by repentance and faith and whoever does call upon the
name of the Lord shall be saved. But salvation is a supernatural work of God that will
always produce fruit. And the evidence, not the cause, but the evidence of salvation is a
changed life, a changing life. Jesus made this very clear in Matthew chapter seven when
he said, “You shall know them by their fruits.
Paul was clear when he said, “Test yourselves, examine yourselves to see whether or not
you are in the faith.”2
There is no such thing as a continuously carnal Christian. Do Christians sin? Yes,
absolutely. But can Christians live in a state of sin without discipline and without being
brought back in obedience to their Father? Absolutely not. Are people saved by making a
decision? Yes, we must make a decision of the will. We must repent. We must believe.
But how do we do that? We do that by the power of God and the work of the Holy Spirit
that regenerates the heart and makes us able to repent and believe. For even repentance
and faith are gifts from God. They are works of his grace”.

Justification and sanctification, the two are inseperable, you can’t have one without the other, but one must come before the other. The Bible is very clear on this issue. There is one scripture that i believe absolutely nails why professing Christians can’t get there heads around this vital theological fact and that is 1Cr 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

 

[budgie2]

From what I understand on the subject, the issue is generally more about it seeming like Catholics “earn points” to “buy” your way into Heaven by doing good deeds.

This of course opposed to the proper understanding that Grace is unmerited and that “good works” are the fruit (because faith alone without works is dead in that it’s not producing any good fruit).

Ever see the movie Constantine? The hero’s constantly doing “good” to get to heaven but is missing the point of what a good deed really implies. It seems that it’s that attitude that some protestants think Catholics have (“points” instead of love).

I think we can be too hard on ourselves here. We should try to do our best. If we try then it is normal that we want some type of reward. We are only human. We don’t try hard for no reward. However, we shouldn’t boast about our good deeds but it’s normal to be proud in private about them. We also try to do our best because we know sin will hurt somebody else somewhere along the line. So it incorporates both. Love, and also expecting some type of reward in heaven.

 

[JRKH]

I think we can be too hard on ourselves here. We should try to do our best. If we try then it is normal that we want some type of reward. We are only human. We don’t try hard for no reward. However, we shouldn’t boast about our good deeds but it’s normal to be proud in private about them. We also try to do our best because we know sin will hurt somebody else somewhere along the line. So it incorporates both. Love, and also expecting some type of reward in heaven.

You bring a good point to the table about doing things for some sort of reward. After all we are promised heaven (reward) or Hell (punishment). However we do not want to do things simply for the “Reward”, or to “Save Our Tukass”.

There are actually levels that ave been explained by the saints and I found wonderful explanations of theme in the Book "Fulfillment of All Desire, by Ralph Martin. I’ll try to paraphrase the stages.

The first stage is the Purgative, or the conversion stage where we first believe and turn away from sin and toward the foot of the cross. In this stage we repent our sins, develop a prayer life and put good order into our lives trying to replace bad habits with good ones. This stage is usually marked by a “Fear of punishment”. Not unlike how a small child who is taught good habits by rewards/punishments.

The Second Stage is the Illuminative Way. In this stage prayer life and the well ordered Christian life grows and acting from servile fear is gradually replaced by actions of love, though also hoping for gain. The person also grows in prayer, virtues, ans stability. Patience, obedience and humility grow.

The Third Stage, is the Unitive Way. In this stage the motivation is love. Servile fear, and expectation of REward are replaced with the desire to do Good for the Sake of our Love for our Soul’s Bridegroom who is Christ.

Of course none of these stages are set in stone, but will overlap and take varying times to accomplish. Years and even decades. Some never make it out of the first stage, others get stuck in the second. Only a few make it into the third stage for it requires great sacrifice. Each stage is also accompanied by times of aridity, some quite lengthy where God’s love feels far off. Other times God give great recompense in being quite near. In each case He is giving opportunities for growth.

I could go on and on about this. But if one is really interested I highly recommend the book.

Anyway the point I wanted to make is that we all begin with a “servile” love and “Fear of the Lord”. It is through prayer and devotion and spiritual work that we overcome this and grow from love like a “small child” (fear/reward) to “Spousal Love” (thinking only of the good)

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by Liraco
From what I understand on the subject, the issue is generally more about it seeming like Catholics “earn points” to “buy” your way into Heaven by doing good deeds.

This of course opposed to the proper understanding that Grace is unmerited and that “good works” are the fruit (because faith alone without works is dead in that it’s not producing any good fruit).

The reply

I think we can be too hard on ourselves here. We should try to do our best. If we try then it is normal that we want some type of reward. We are only human. We don’t try hard for no reward. However, we shouldn’t boast about our good deeds but it’s normal to be proud in private about them. We also try to do our best because we know sin will hurt somebody else somewhere along the line. So it incorporates both. Love, and also expecting some type of reward in heaven.

***I have posted often the Official Position of the RCC on this issue. The idea of ANYONE "buying ones way into heaven is NOT the position of the Church. it is actually anti-biblical.

The Bible evidence of the RCC Position has been presented numerous times. If you would like someone to represent the evidence just ask.***

Phil. 2:12 “12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.”

Heb. 6: 9-10 “Though we speak thus, yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things that belong to salvation. 10 For God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do"

Work’s are one of several things expected by God.

John 3:5
John 3:36
John 20:21-22
Mt. 19:16
Mt 18: 18
Mt. 16:19 for example!

 

[PastorVW]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread, but this seems related.

I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

 

[twb1621]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread, but this seems related.

I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

It would be beneficial to recognize that faith without works is as is proclaimed, “dead”. Faith certainly is required for our salvation and Faith is our salvation provided we live according to the teachings of Christ. This is most certainly Biblical. Without living in humility and charity loving our brothers and sisters for the love of God, There is no salvation according to the word of God Himself. So there is no Faith VS. Works, but the union of both. As the Gospel declared, we do not want to test God. Believing we are saved while continuing in this journey without accepting any other responsibility is testing God and the passion and death He suffered.
It is not that Catholics are taught not to believe they are saved, but to recognize free will has never been removed from us and we are flawed as human beings, never free of sin. If we are reconciled with God and serious sin is absent us, yes, after the purification as God determines we are saved. Catholics believe as the scriptures proclaim, salvation does not mean there will not be a debt a person will have to assume and no one is pure to enter heaven without the cleansing but that is for the determination of God Himself. With this in mind, this is the purification BEFORE heaven, so yes we do believe in our salvation, just not the total absence of sin while in this life.

As far as works are concerned, it is not about earning salvation. It is about living as we are taught by Jesus, being disciples of Jesus which means students of Jesus, learning to follow His teachings and ways. This is our end of the covenant.

From thread, “Believing In Faith Alone”

How is it that although there are many verses in the Gospel that proclaim the necessity for works in love of each other, charity and humility, those who believe in faith alone refuse to accept these proclamations of Jesus?

In particular, I pose the following verses that have been presented to many who believe faith is salvation in itself. I suggest your deepest consideration before responding. These proclamations are very direct in meaning. Could living by the correct answer be the difference between salvation and condemnation as Christ has spoken or was He wrong? These verses are presented frequently to believers of salvation through faith alone, but there is no reasonable response at all let alone a reasonable interpretation offered. As I said, the verses are ignored completely;

***Matthew CH25 31 ***14 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37 Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Continued next post…

 

[twb1621]

Continued from previous post:

***41 ***17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44 18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Finally; For those who believe works comes automatically and are not of our free will, where does the Gospels say our free will is taken away leaving our actions or works mindless to the responsibility of the Holy Spirit? And if this were the case, why would Jesus judge us on our works of love if we have faith to begin with? Why also would works of love be acceptable yet as Jesus has proclaimed, God knows what is in the hearts of man and that which is done for reward or praise or out of pride has no value?

 

[JRKH]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread, but this seems related.

I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

In brief, I would say that the catholic position is one of, “to the best of my ability to know, I am, at present, assured of salvation.” I think that you state it well when you use the phrase “Present Assurance”, for that is what it is. An assurance (not a guarantee) for the present moment (But not the next moment).
In the example you use, of getting hit by a bus, we can’t really know that we won’t curse God in that instant and blame Him for our “untimely death”.

I realize that my example is a bit far fetched, but it illustrates the difference between 'knowing" and “having confidence”.

I hope this helps.

Peace
James

 

[PJM]

=PastorVW I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

***Wecome to The Forum Pastor:thumbsup:

Great question! The short answer is “No /maybe”. [2 Phil. 2: 12-13; Heb. 6: 9-10 and James Chapter 2]

No I’m not hedging our position. If you were to ask the question differently, say; “are you saved?” My IPRC [Informed Practicing Roman Catholic] reply should be: yes I am saved [Redeemed] and I am still in the process of being “saved” final Salvation.

We can [and most certainly are gravely obligated to] understand what Christ demands for ones personal salvation. For example we know we must be Baptized [Jn. 3:5], we know that we must confess our sins [Mt. 16:19; Jn. 20:21-22, and 1 Jn. 5:16-17], we know that we nust obey ALL of Gods Commandments [Mt. 19:16 and Jn. 3:31] and of course we must practice charity [Mt. Ch. 5 & 6; James Ch. 2].

As you are aware Catholics through the Sacraments instituted by Jesus Himself, are afforded opportunities for additional GRACES that we term “sacramental grace.” Of patricular note are four Sacraments that directly influence ones personal salvation. the Sacrament Christian Baptism*, that not only bring one into community with Christ, but has the power to remove both all sins [PAST] as well as the latent effects of sins, then we have the Sacrament of KNOWN forgiveness;not as guess. a known certainty, in the Sacramernt of reconcillation / Confession, then we have the most awesome Gift of Jesus in Person [not only in Spirit] Really, Truely and Substanually Present to us in Catholic Holy Communion, and finally the Sacrament of “Last Rites / Annointing of the Sick”
which like Baptism has the same potential of forgiveness of All sins and all the latent effects of sin. I call this a " catholic short-cut to heaven"

Because Chirst only intended to form one Church, which is precisely what Christ did, theses extra sources helpful to ones persoanl salvation are only available through His One Church.

So the bottom line is that a Catholic should be aware of the state of his soul, and in particular, if their are any unconfessed Mortal [litteraly death to the soul and personal relationship with our Lord, until CONFESSED and forgiven] that need to be forgiven through the sacrament of Confession [John 20:21-22]. A Catholic can be “comfortable” with the condition of his soul and his persoanl relationship with Christ, but cannot be confident, as salvation relies on God’s Mercy. We are to be ever mindful that as Isaiah 55:8-9 advises ;
"8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, says the LORD. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

Based on this we can HOPE, and be optomistic BUT NOT know with certitude.**

Love and prayers and again we are sincerely glad you could join us.

 

[DebChris]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread, but this seems related.

I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

There are two sins to avoid. One is the sin of despair, believing that a person’s sin is so grievous that there is no way that a loving God will forgive it.
The second is the sin of presumption, the idea that no matter what I do I am assured a place in heaven.
“It is not the one who cries 'Lord, Lord, who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of the Father.” We even read where St. Paul talks of “doing that which I would not do” and his concern that he will be rejected. We read that too that he has “run the good race.”

I like the prayer of Thomas Merton in which he comes to the conclusion that even if he does not know whether or not he is following God’s will, but if he desires to follow God’s will he is in fact following God’s will.
As Catholics, we believe that we must be in a state of grace in order to enter heaven. Asked by her prosecutors whether or not she was in a state of grace, St. Joan of Arc replied, “If I am in a state of grace I pray that God would keep me there, and if I am not I pray that He will place me there.”
"But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.’ (Rev. 21:27).
The gift and the call [of salvation] are irrevocable (Rom 11:20). If there is any doss (vestiges of temporal effects due to sin), it needs to be burned away (1 Cor. 3:15) in a final purification (Purgatory) before entering heaven. Loss of redemption is less a matter of God’s condemnation and more a rejection of God’s grace through intentional grievous (mortal) sin.

To the question about whether or not I experience at the moment “get hit by a bus crossing the street salvation,” the answer is an unequivocal yes even if I need to spend time in Purgatory before I see the beatific vision.

The simplest Catholic answer to the question Are You Saved? I was saved when Jesus died on the cross for my sins. I continue to be saved each and every time the Mass is celebrated any where in the world until the end of time.

 

[GratefulFred]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread, but this seems related.

I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

I don’t see a hijack, just a richer discussion of Faith and Works.

For me, a lifelong Catholic, I trust in God’s merciful salvation through Jesus Christ. Presuming I am in a State of Grace when I die, I have God’s assurance that I will eventually join Him in Heaven after I am purified by some period in Purgatory.

BUT . . . there have been times when I was not in the State of Grace because I willfully committed one or more Mortal sins and had not yet received God’s forgiveness because I had not yet confessed my sin and asked for forgiveness. Big risk on my part to remain out of the State of Grace for any period of time. Glad I did not die then.

Reconciliation is, I think a huge divide among Christains. Without citing the actual verses, Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the Apostles when He appeared to them after His ressurrection. Knowing that Christ is God and knowing that God cannot deceive (lie or mislead) I accept that, to follow Christ, I must recognize my sins and confess them to an Apostle commissioned by Christ (today a priest by extended delegation) and obtain GOD’s forgiveness through Christ’s authority given after His resurrection.

For those who love Christ but find this hard to accept, I ask them to continue to pray for Wisdom, for God’s understanding to come to them. My basic prayer is:

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, grant me the Wisdom and strength to know and to do Your Will. Not MY will, but Your Will be done."

Because I love God, I want to try to do His Will through Jesus Christ. It is His Way, not My Way. I need His Grace to learn His Way better and to grow more on His Way.

 

[DebChris]

The reading from today’s Vespers fits right into this discussion.
From James 1:19-25
A man who listens to God’s word but does not put into practice is like a man who looks into a mirror at the face he was born with: he looks at himself, then goes off and promptly forgets what he looked like. There is, on the other hand, the man who peers into freedom’s ideal law and abides by it. He is no forgetful listener, but one who peers into freedom’s ideal law and abides by it. He is no forgetful listener, but one who carries out the law in practice. Blest will this man be in whatever he does.

Grateful Fred–You said much that I wanted to about the Sacrament of Reconciliation. We always have a way back to the Father who welcomes us with open arms. There are other threads on this subject and I didn’t want to go too far in that direction. The Apostle (priest) acts in personna of Christ so that when we do confess our sins, it is Christ who forgives through the ministry of the Church. We are reconciled to God and to one another.

Salvation is a process, not a one time occurrence. I like the metaphor that I once heard during a prayer meeting I attended. It was a rancher’s answer to “once saved, always saved” and water. If the water in the barrels isn’t refreshed, it will develop wigglers.

I was also looking for the passage in which we are predestined to become sons and daughters of the most high, the hope that we are to have when it comes to our salvation.

 

[SHW]

Paul states that he does not judge himself because that is God’s job. I think this is good advice because we do not want to sin by presumptuousness nor by despairing.

1 Corinthians 4:3-4 “But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court. In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord.”

2 Peter 1:2-11 “Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

We must use “extra” diligence (become more and more like Christ) in order to make our call and election sure.

 

[Mikejw]

Amen to that, this is a good thread

 

[twb1621]

This should speak for itself…

---

Jesus addressed this parable to those who were convinced of their own righteousness and despised everyone else.
*“Two people went up to the temple area to pray; one was a Pharisee and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity greedy, dishonest, adulterous or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’ But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, ‘O God, be merciful to me a sinner.’ I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.” ***Gospel (Lk 18:9-14)
**

 

[djeter]

A lot of misunderstood Paul goes into this topic. If you would like to review the basics on this, I’ve been posting chapter summaries of Reading Paul, a wonderful little book by Michael J Gorman.

The chapter concerning this is located here but read the others from time to time as well:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/06/25/understanding-paul-in-an-age-of-cheap-justification/

“Today, once again, many Christians and churches face the temptations of a cultural captivity within a secular state; spirituality without discipleship or ethics, and knee-jerk nationalism. These are all forms of cheap grace, or cheap justification — a relationship with God in which God is believed to be a kind of cosmic agent of “salvation” (happiness, blessing, security prosperity; etc.) who requires little or nothing of the allegedly “saved” or “blessed.” Cheap justification is justification without transformation, without conversion, without justice. Once again, someone needs to speak, not merely of grace, but of costly grace; not merely of justification by faith, but of costly justification by faith. That someone is Paul.”

A fine meditation on Justification.

And if you would like Fr. Romano Guardini’s take on justice. Read how he interprets these two parables:

payingattentiontothesky.com/2009/07/02/when-jesus-spoke-of-justice/

Regards,

DJ

 

[holy_moly]

I hope I am not hijacking the thread, but this seems related.

I fully understand that the RCC position is that one cannot know if one WILL be saved (as in future) because we do not know if we will choose to continue in the faith. But what about present, right now, this minute assurance of peace with God? As Catholics, do you experience present assurance of current, if I get hit by a bus crossing this street, salvation?

It seems to me that this is a real world test of faith vs. works. If one believes that present cooperation with God’s plan of salvation - including ongoing repentance and obedience - is all that is needed, than present assurance is possible.

What do my Catholic brothers and sisters believe?

Personally, I don’t take my salvation for granted, nor do I feel worthy, hence I am relying on God’s grace & divine mercy!

 

[JRKH]

Personally, I don’t take my salvation for granted, nor do I feel worthy, hence I am relying on God’s grace & divine mercy!

This is interesting that you put this in this way. It fits beautifully with the way St Catherine of Sienna described it.

In an exctecy (sp) God described death and judgemnt like this (paraphrased).

Each person chooses their own judgement based on how they believed and lived.
Those perfected in God’s Love reach out to that Love at the moment of death and are drawn into heaven
Those who believe but are not yet perfected in God’s Love reach out to God’s Mercy and are drawn into “purgatory” for purification.
Those who have rejected God’s and God’s Love, those who Live in the world and in selfish evil instead of in God, they reach out for that selfish Love embrace the demons.

Each reaches out and embrases that which the truly believe.

There is a lot more to it, but that is the gist.

Peace
James

 

[ejb21]

In my opinion the whole Faith/Works argument is a phony, man-made argument. It’s an argument about words. We are saved by The Blood of Jesus Christ.