Faith vs. Works

[Deacon_Latif]

Then, you will be happy to know that I think that the present Lutheran position is pretty close to the Catholic position even though I also think that Luther’s personal position 500 years ago was not. I am not the only person who thinks this. I actually feel sorry for Luther so I bear him no personal animosity, but Luther’s words speak for him. There really is no need for us to “guess” what he meant when we have direct quotes from him.

I personally think that he was an over-scrupulous man and this over-scrupulosity is what led him to preach his new theology of faith alone since he thought that he personally could never measure up and therefore no one else could ever measure up either, and so in his considered opinion, the Catholic position must be in error. However, it was unfortunate that he led many people away from the Catholic truth that both faith and works are necessary in order to inherit eternal life.

Marie:
The genuine Lutheran doctrine of the justification of the sinner, and of the importance and proper place of good works, has remained the same, from the fall into sin of our first parents (whose names were Adam and Eve, by the way) to the present day. Are there Lutherans today who hold a doctrine different from Luther’s? Yes. But that does not mean that there is a “Lutheran doctrine” today that is different from what it was five centuries ago. To be clear, the Lutheran doctrine is both more distinct from Rome’s than those in the Lutheran World Federation seem to think, on the one hand, and closer to Rome’s than you seem to think, on the other. In genuine Christian ecumenical dialog, we are called to be engaged in a tricky matter. For we must constantly work to dispel myths, to overcome real differences, and to find points of real commonality, all within a modern religious milieu which seeks to undermine all of this by covering over real differences on the one hand, and create differences where they don’t exist on the other hand. But you and I, and I’m sure the others on Catholic Answers, are capable of rising above it, and striving to keep our heads, and hearts, where they should be, in the struggle for true unity in Christ our Lord. I’m sure our dialogical paths will cross again. Traditionally we call this season Septuagesimatide, which points us toward the coming Lenten Fast. So I pray your own Lenten journey this year will be spiritually fruitful.
Latif

 

[Deacon_Latif]

…Luther’s words speak for him. There really is no need for us to “guess” what he meant when we have direct quotes from him.

Marie:
It is true that Luther’s words largely speak for themselves, as long as a number of things are kept in mind when reading him, such as context, what exactly he was responding to or addressing at any giving time, the theologically rich concepts that much of his writings and thought presupposes or embodies, the cultural background, the ecclesio-political situation, the monastic presuppositions of much of his writings, etc, etc. I’m not, by the way, implying that his writings are particularly hard to grasp, once one learns to “get” or appreciate some of these important keys. What I am trying to say is that it does no good to merely pull a quote here and a quote there. If by the way, you are at least as confident as I am that Luther’s words can speak for themselves, then you should all the more be willing to actually read him, and when I say read him, I mean whole works at a time, instead of merely filtering isolated quotes through secondary sources. And his writings are of many kinds, and one can easily get lost in them without a plan. So I am happy to give some suggestions.

 

[SHW]

Marie:
It is true that Luther’s words largely speak for themselves, as long as a number of things are kept in mind when reading him, such as context, what exactly he was responding to or addressing at any giving time, the theologically rich concepts that much of his writings and thought presupposes or embodies, the cultural background, the ecclesio-political situation, the monastic presuppositions of much of his writings, etc, etc. I’m not, by the way, implying that his writings are particularly hard to grasp, once one learns to “get” or appreciate some of these important keys. What I am trying to say is that it does no good to merely pull a quote here and a quote there. If by the way, you are at least as confident as I am that Luther’s words can speak for themselves, then you should all the more be willing to actually read him, and when I say read him, I mean whole works at a time, instead of merely filtering isolated quotes through secondary sources. And his writings are of many kinds, and one can easily get lost in them without a plan. So I am happy to give some suggestions.

I appreciate your kind offer, but because I am far, far behind on my recommended reading “list” and because I see stacks of unread books awaiting my attention in my own study reproaching me for my neglect of them, I cannot guarantee that I will be able to read your suggested reading list.

Please accept my thanks in advance for your suggestions. I will check back on this thread to see if you post these suggestions and I can also bookmark the links to them if they are online.

 

[SHW]

so who were you quoting, out of curiosity?

Michael D. Marlowe
bible-researcher.com

bible-researcher.com/antilegomena.html

I took the quotes for my post from this page on Marlowe’s website:

“The following is a chapter taken from Philip Schaff’s History of the Christian Church (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1910).”:

bible-researcher.com/luther02.html

Shalom,
Marie

 

[kepha1]

Lutheranism identifies the justified man as he who has received the gift of faith in Jesus Christ through the preaching of the gospel. Catholicism identifies the justified man as he who has been been regenerated in the Holy Spirit and supernaturally restored to a relationship of love with the Father through the incarnate Son. Which is the superior explanation? Koons has become persuaded that the Catholic view best states the reality of our justification:

In order to be able to benefit from our objective justification, we must undergo an internal transformation that enables us to enjoy eternal life with God. Eternal life in God’s presence would be no benefit to a sinful man, whose heart and mind are at enmity with God. C. S. Lewis illustrates this fact beautifully in his masterpiece, The Great Divorce. Unregenerate people would find heaven more intolerable even than hell.
How does this internal transformation take place? It begins with faith, which is itself a free gift of God, dependent on no prior works or merits. However, merely believing God is not sufficient for being able to enjoy communion with God: faith must reach its natural end or completion, in the form of the love of God. Only when, through the gift of the Holy Spirit, we begin to love God are we in a state in which we can begin to enjoy the benefits of Christ’s redemption. It is true, of course, that we never love as we ought, but neither do we ever trust as we ought. The process of sanctification is a long and gradual process: the attainment of perfection is not a prerequisite of friendship with God, but the natural result of that friendship. (p. 40)

The Justification of Robert Koons
%between%

 

[twinc]

it seems the problem remains exactly as before and so also the misunderstanding.So let me try and clarify "we are not rewarded with heaven for our good works but we will be rewarded in heaven.There are thousands of good workers in hell who never made it.It is by faith through grace and mercy that we are saved - twinc

 

[Deacon_Latif]

[/INDENT]

One thing that Koons gets right in the link you provide is the following:

“Comparing the Catholic and Lutheran understandings of justification is not an easy matter, despite the confident polemics of the past four hundred and fifty years. Key terms (justification, grace, faith, merit) possess different meanings within the respective systems. As a result, the two traditions appear to agree when they do not in fact agree and to disagree when they in fact do agree. Identification of the authentic differences between the Catholic and Lutheran understandings thus requires patient and charitable analysis.”

You will recall that I gave a similar warning a post or two above; it is an apt warning against the superficial treatment of Luther’s doctrine that too often takes place. Ultimately his own analysis is flawed, as I will show later.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

Lutheranism identifies the justified man as he who has received the gift of faith in Jesus Christ through the preaching of the gospel. Catholicism identifies the justified man as he who has been been regenerated in the Holy Spirit and supernaturally restored to a relationship of love with the Father through the incarnate Son. Which is the superior explanation?

It is a false premise for a discussion of the differences on Justification to provide these two definitions, and say that they represent the two sides respectively. It is an inaccurate picture in a couple of ways.

1. Your definition of the Lutheran position is not complete. 2. There is nothing un-Lutheran about the second definition.

Your definition of the Lutheran position fails to take into account that according to Lutheran doctrine, the Gospel, by which the Holy Ghost works faith where and when He pleases, comes to man in not only preaching, but also in the Sacrament of Holy Baptism in the case of infants. In Baptism true generation takes place, which is manifestly shown in Lutheran teaching. For example, in the Small Catechism we have this:

What is Baptism?
Baptism is not simple water only, but it is the water comprehended in God’s command and connected with God’s Word.

Which is that Word of God?
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Matthew: Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.

What does Baptism give or profit?
It works forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.

Which are such words and promises of God?
Christ, our Lord, says in the last chapter of Mark: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

How can water do such great things?
It is not the water indeed that does them, but the Word of God which is in and with the water, and faith which trusts such Word of God in the water. For without the Word of God the water is simple water, and no Baptism. But with the word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a gracious water of life and a washing of regeneration in the Holy Ghost, as Saint Paul says, Titus, chapter third: According to His mercy He saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ, our Savior, that, being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying.

What does such baptizing with water signify?
It signifies that the Old Adam in us should, by daily contrition and repentance, be drowned and die with all sins and evil lusts and, again, a new man daily come forth and arise, who shall live before God in righteousness and purity forever.

Where is this written?
St. Paul says, Romans, chapter sixth: We are buried with Christ by Baptism into death, that, like as He was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

(this post might be getting too long, so I might follow up with more later.)

 

[Deacon_Latif]

It is a false premise for a discussion of the differences on Justification to provide these two definitions, and say that they represent the two sides respectively. It is an inaccurate picture in a couple of ways. … more later.

Another aspect of Lutheran doctrine, dear friends, which must factor into an appreciation of the Lutheran view of Justification, is that it is an absolute gift of God, sola gratia. My strength, my will, my faith, my intellect, none of it could get me from the death of sin to the life of God. Rather, I was enlivened, quickened (notice the passive tense) by God Himself. (It is for good reason that in the Nicene Creed we call the Spirit vivificantem.) To say otherwise would obscure the glory of the merits of Christ. All is accomplished for us by Christ. When He said, Tetelesthai, Comsummatum est, He meant it. So for example, as part of Luther’s explanation of the Apostles’ Creed in the Small Catechism, he says this:

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He daily and richly forgives all sins to me and all believers, and will at the Last Day raise up me and all the dead, and give unto me and all believers in Christ eternal life. This is most certainly true.

(more later)

 

[Deacon_Latif]

(more later)

What follows is a very concise summary of the Lutheran doctrine of Justification, from the 4th Article of the Augsburg Confession. In an ecumenical conversation, like ours, this article will require some explication, which I will try to contribute later:

Also they teach that men cannot be justified before God by their own strength, merits, or works, but are freely justified for Christ’s sake, through faith, when they believe that they are received into favor, and that their sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, who, by His death, has made satisfaction for our sins. This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 & 4.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

will require some explication…This faith God imputes for righteousness in His sight. Rom. 3 & 4.

First, the concept of gratia imputata has been very badly caricatured by some Catholic writers, and misunderstood. It is thought by many Catholics that “imputation” implies that the one justified really isn’t a new man on the inside, and that it therefore fits in with their caricature that Lutherans do not believe in the necessity of good works in this life. The imputation of grace is best understood as God’s gracious judgment in Christ. That is, when He declares, through the mouth of His chosen ones, that I am Baptized, and again, that I am absolved, etc., He means exactly what He says. It is not a “mere” declaration. It is a declaration by the One whose Word has the power to effect what it declares. You know, like when He said, Let there be light. Or when He says, This is My Body.

Second, this article, which I quote above, cannot be isolated to imply that we do not believe in good works. For just two articles later, in article 6, which I quoted here a few days ago, it is quite clear that good works are necessary, commanded, and willed by God. In fact, Christ Himself is the one who works these good works in my life (Gal 2:20) so that the life of the Baptized is the life of Christ in the world.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

For just two articles later, in article 6, which I quoted here a few days ago, it is quite clear that good works are necessary, commanded, and willed by God. In fact, Christ Himself is the one who works these good works in my life (Gal 2:20) so that the life of the Baptized is the life of Christ in the world.

To be clear, since it it quite a way back up this thread, here again is article 6 of the Augsburg Confession.

It is called De Nova Obedientia, or Of the New Obedience.

Also they teach that this faith is bound to bring forth good fruits, and that it is necessary to do good works commanded by God, because of God’s will, but that we should not rely on those works to merit justification before God. For remission of sins and justification is apprehended by faith, as also the voice of Christ attests: When ye shall have done all these things, say: We are unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. The same is also taught by the Fathers. For Ambrose says: It is ordained of God that he who believes in Christ is saved, freely receiving remission of sins, without works, by faith alone.

 

[twinc]

it seems the problem remains exactly as before and so also the misunderstanding.So let me try and clarify "we are not rewarded with heaven for our good works but we will be rewarded in heaven.There are thousands of workers of good works in hell who never made it.It is by faith through grace and mercy that we are saved - twinc

 

[Deacon_Latif]

twinc:
That is true. Or as Luther would say, Hoc certissime verum est.

 

[SHW]

it seems the problem remains exactly as before and so also the misunderstanding.So let me try and clarify "we are not rewarded with heaven for our good works but we will be rewarded in heaven.There are thousands of good workers in hell who never made it.It is by faith through grace and mercy that we are saved - twinc

I think this “thread” discussion is getting too complicated.

So, is it possible for an adult baptized person who has not obeyed God’s commandments and who has not repented before his death to enter into eternal life?

I say “no.”

Is it possible for an adult baptized person to enter into eternal life who did not do any good works while he was still alive?

I think there is only one exception that makes it possible for an adult person to enter eternal life without having done good works before his death and this is: The person died immediately after repentance and he was not given any time to do good works before he died.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

I think this “thread” discussion is getting too complicated.

So, is it possible for an adult baptized person who has not obeyed God’s commandments and who has not repented before his death to enter into eternal life?

I say “no.”

You are right, Marie. For the man who, though he was Baptized, continues unrepentant in his sin, has effectively rejected the Holy Spirit. As Paul would say to the Galatians, he has fallen from grace.

You said that this is getting complicated. You’re right about that too. But let me add here that matters of the faith are complicated. We ought never pretend they are not. Yet they are simple. As paradoxical as that may seem, both are true, as with all the truest things in life. They are simultaneously simple yet endlessly rich and multifaceted. Luther would say that faith is simple, but never easy. Think about that for a moment. Yes, Lutherans would say that faith alone in Christ alone is what saves a man, but this faith is not cheap, for it cost our Lord everything, and indeed, it costs us everything, for Baptism into Christ is a dying to sin. It is being incorporated into His costly and all availing sacrifice. So the Lutheran, when true to his baptismal faith, will daily ask himself the rhetorical question that St. Paul asks: How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Put still another way, the misunderstood Lutheran slogan Sola Fide is true in a certain context and when properly understood. That is to say, it is faith alone which saves, and yet (here is an important yet), faith is never alone. It is always alive with holy living. The opposite of such faith is dead faith, which is not faith.

 

[Deacon_Latif]

So, is it possible for an adult baptized person who has not obeyed God’s commandments and who has not repented before his death to enter into eternal life?

I’m sorry for writing so much this morning, but one more thought I wanted to add is that, in Luther’s thought, repentance itself can refer to a couple things. It is not merely the act of turning away from a sin, which might happen periodically, but perhaps more importantly, repentance is the ongoing mindset of the Christian. It defines not merely an act, but the whole of the Christian life. In my life in Christ, I am constantly in a state of repentance. Or as Luther says in the first of the Ninety-Five Theses:

Dominus et magister noster Iesus Christus dicendo ‘Penitentiam agite etc.’ omnem vitam fidelium penitentiam esse voluit.

Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

 

[twinc]

I’m sorry for writing so much this morning, but one more thought I wanted to add is that, in Luther’s thought, repentance itself can refer to a couple things. It is not merely the act of turning away from a sin, which might happen periodically, but perhaps more importantly, repentance is the ongoing mindset of the Christian. It defines not merely an act, but the whole of the Christian life. In my life in Christ, I am constantly in a state of repentance. Or as Luther says in the first of the Ninety-Five Theses:

Dominus et magister noster Iesus Christus dicendo ‘Penitentiam agite etc.’ omnem vitam fidelium penitentiam esse voluit.

Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance.

after all else is said and done lets ask was original washed away on Golgota or is it washed away by Baptism ? - twinc

 

[Deacon_Latif]

after all else is said and done lets ask was original washed away on Golgota or is it washed away by Baptism ? - twinc

Could you be clear about what you are asking? Are you asking whether original sin was washed away on Golgotha or by Baptism? If so, here is my answer. Christ, by His holy suffering and death on the cross, paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world, not merely original sin, but all sin, past, present, and future. That forgiveness of sins, which He won for us on the cross, must still be delivered to us. We must still be able to apprehend it. For despite the old spiritual song, no we were not there when they crucified our Lord. There must be a way for the power of the cross to come here to our life in the 21st century. That is called the ministry of the Gospel and Sacraments. It is the difference, in theological terms, between objective justification and subjective justification. That is to say, on the cross two millennia ago Christ accomplished for us objective justification, where the sins of the world were paid for, and in Milwaukee 1971, when I was an infant, He accomplished what theologians call subjective justification, by baptizing me in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. In Baptism we receive the forgiveness of sins, by being buried into Christ’s very death, and raised to His own new life.

 

[SHW]

Christ, by His holy suffering and death on the cross, paid the penalty for the sins of the whole world, not merely original sin, but all sin, past, present, and future. That forgiveness of sins, which He won for us on the cross, must still be delivered to us. We must still be able to apprehend it. For despite the old spiritual song, no we were not there when they crucified our Lord. There must be a way for the power of the cross to come here to our life in the 21st century. That is called the ministry of the Gospel and Sacraments. It is the difference, in theological terms, between objective justification and subjective justification. That is to say, on the cross two millennia ago Christ accomplished for us objective justification, where the sins of the world were paid for, and in Milwaukee 1971, when I was an infant, He accomplished what theologians call subjective justification, by baptizing me in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. In Baptism we receive the forgiveness of sins, by being buried into Christ’s very death, and raised to His own new life.

Christ paid the blood penalty for our personal sins so that we do not have to still sacrifice animals in order to atone for our personal sins. However, now in the New Covenant, we still have to atone for our personal sins by doing works/bearing fruits worthy of repentance."

Matthew 3:7-9
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.