Faith vs. Works

[Deacon_Latif]

Christ paid the blood penalty for our personal sins so that we do not have to still sacrifice animals in order to atone for our personal sins. However, now in the New Covenant, we still have to atone for our personal sins by doing works/bearing fruits worthy of repentance."

Matthew 3:7-9
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

Titus 3:8
This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Marie:
You’re starting to look like a regular “bible verse proof texter.” If I were a fundamentalist that might be a compliment, but Lutherans do not do theology by proof text. You shouldn’t either; it doesn’t become you. Also, one of the dangers of that methodology is that the Word of God will end up being mishandled. In this post you unfortunately fall victim to that very danger. For your two bible quotes in fact have nothing to do with my point that Christ Jesus our Lord paid for the sins of the world in His bitter passion and death, and that you and I receive the benefits of that atonement by means of the sacramental life of the Church. None of this is to imply that there is no place for good works in the life of the Christian. The whole of the Christian life is to be one of self-sacrifice, and of repentance.

 

[SHW]

Marie:
You’re starting to look like a regular “bible verse proof texter.” If I were a fundamentalist that might be a compliment, but Lutherans do not do theology by proof text. You shouldn’t either; it doesn’t become you. Also, one of the dangers of that methodology is that the Word of God will end up being mishandled. In this post you unfortunately fall victim to that very danger. For your two bible quotes in fact have nothing to do with my point that Christ Jesus our Lord paid for the sins of the world in His bitter passion and death, and that you and I receive the benefits of that atonement by means of the sacramental life of the Church. None of this is to imply that there is no place for good works in the life of the Christian. The whole of the Christian life is to be one of self-sacrifice, and of repentance.

Most fundamentalists and evangelicals, etc. are not interested in Catholic theology or the Church’s sacramental life or the catechism. They want to see whether the Scriptures either do support or else do not support Catholic teaching. (Some set out with the intention to disprove Catholic teaching and then find out to their consternation that Scripture actually backs up Catholic teaching.) When they figure out that what the Catholic Church teaches is true, then they become interested in learning more about the sacramental life of the Catholic Church.

For example, if a Catholic convinces them by Scripture alone that his Catholic beliefs about baptism are true regarding the necessity of spiritual regeneration through baptism, then they will want to learn more about baptism so that they can receive this spiritual regeneration in order to follow Christ’s commands more perfectly. Once they desire this type of baptism, then they become receptive to learning more about the sacramental system of the Church., etc. and this is when it becomes necessary for help from priests and deacons.

I believe that we must meet people where they are “presently” in order to help them to eventually embrace a fuller knowledge of the truth of Jesus’ gospel.

Each person must do his part in the body of Christ, but we do not all do the same thing. 1 Corinthians 12

 

[Melek]

I like to believe that good works without faith can grant you salvation.

Jews are taught that believing God incarnated as Jesus is absolute heresy. If a Jew who does righteous actions is taught that having faith in Jesus is a sin, can you really blame him? I like to believe that people who weren’t born into the Church still can be saved.

 

[SHW]

I like to believe that good works without faith can grant you salvation.

Jews are taught that believing God incarnated as Jesus is absolute heresy. If a Jew who does righteous actions is taught that having faith in Jesus is a sin, can you really blame him? I like to believe that people who weren’t born into the Church still can be saved.

Christians are not the only persons who will be saved. God reads each person’s heart Revelation 2:23, 1 Thessalonians 2:4 and judges justly and mercifully. He does not condemn people who are ignorant of Christ through no fault of their own. Romans 2:14-16, Hebrews 4:12

Acts 10:34-35
Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. 35 But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.

They will be judged by their works and so will we. Revelation 20:12 However, we Christians will face a stricter judgment than non-Christians because much more has been given to us. Luke 12:40-48

 

[Liraco]

I like to believe that good works without faith can grant you salvation.

Jews are taught that believing God incarnated as Jesus is absolute heresy. If a Jew who does righteous actions is taught that having faith in Jesus is a sin, can you really blame him? I like to believe that people who weren’t born into the Church still can be saved.

Good works on their own don’t grant salvation, even evil people can do good deeds.

You mention the Jews specifically though, and they do good works IN faith (at least most them them I would hope). That they do not understand the message of Jesus as the fulfillment of the Old testament and as the Messiah they were waiting for, is a different thing.

As the poster before me showed, there is salvation for those outside of the visible boundaries of the Catholic . That includes anyone and everyone who lives a good life AND does not reject God.

Those who come to know the truth and reject it are the ones who can’t be saved (if you reject the truth you’re rejecting God, and someone who rejects Him cannot be in Heaven).

 

[DebChris]

Most fundamentalists and evangelicals, etc. are not interested in Catholic theology or the Church’s sacramental life or the catechism. They want to see whether the Scriptures either do support or else do not support Catholic teaching. (Some set out with the intention to disprove Catholic teaching and then find out to their consternation that Scripture actually backs up Catholic teaching.) When they figure out that what the Catholic Church teaches is true, then they become interested in learning more about the sacramental life of the Catholic Church.

For example, if a Catholic convinces them by Scripture alone that his Catholic beliefs about baptism are true regarding the necessity of spiritual regeneration through baptism, then they will want to learn more about baptism so that they can receive this spiritual regeneration in order to follow Christ’s commands more perfectly. Once they desire this type of baptism, then they become receptive to learning more about the sacramental system of the Church., etc. and this is when it becomes necessary for help from priests and deacons.

I believe that we must meet people where they are “presently” in order to help them to eventually embrace a fuller knowledge of the truth of Jesus’ gospel.

Each person must do his part in the body of Christ, but we do not all do the same thing. 1 Corinthians 12

I agree. We need to meet a person where he/she is. As Cursillo teaches when it comes to evangelization,“Make a friend. Be a friend. Bring a friend to Christ.”
Pope Benedict XVI talks about dialogue as “conversation across differences.” Friends do not always agree, but instead openly listen to one anothers. Personal knowledge lovingly presented goes further than merely taking a stand. The gospel we preach comes as much from our lives as from our words.

I like to believe that good works without faith can grant you salvation.

Jews are taught that believing God incarnated as Jesus is absolute heresy. If a Jew who does righteous actions is taught that having faith in Jesus is a sin, can you really blame him? I like to believe that people who weren’t born into the Church still can be saved.

We as Christians believe in the same God whom the Jews worship. While they may not accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, they do have faith which leads them to the works they perform in God’s name.
Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Nobody comes to the Father except through me.” What we mortals do not know is how Jesus calls a person to Faith. The Catholic Church acknowledges a Baptism of Desire, a will to follow Christ, to do the Father’s Will even should that person have no knowledge of Jesus as Messiah.

 

[twinc]

It seems we have not been really told or understood or accepted our Christmas gift of salvation,which is only given to some and most be freely accepted with joy and thanks and praise.We do not inherit heaven as if by right or on demand or by being good or doing good.We will be rewarded not with heaven but in heaven for our good works imho as I understand it. I also understand that there are many good workers in hell - it seems we are born sinners and as such unacceptable to God - twinc

 

[dominikus28]

We are saved by God’s grace alone. But does by doing good works are we rewarded for that in heaven? I understand that if it was not for God’s grace, no matter how many good works we do we wouldn’t be saved, so it is God’s grace that saves us not good works. But once we are saved, does doing good works elevate us in heaven? I mean, I remember reading in the bible that we will be rewarded accordingly, like those who lower themselves will but higher in heaven and those who are high on earth will be lowered in heaven… am I understanding correctly?

 

[johnromanoski]

Most fundamentalists and evangelicals, etc. are not interested in Catholic theology or the Church’s sacramental life or the catechism. They want to see whether the Scriptures either do support or else do not support Catholic teaching. (Some set out with the intention to disprove Catholic teaching and then find out to their consternation that Scripture actually backs up Catholic teaching.) When they figure out that what the Catholic Church teaches is true, then they become interested in learning more about the sacramental life of the Catholic Church.

For example, if a Catholic convinces them by Scripture alone that his Catholic beliefs about baptism are true regarding the necessity of spiritual regeneration through baptism, then they will want to learn more about baptism so that they can receive this spiritual regeneration in order to follow Christ’s commands more perfectly. Once they desire this type of baptism, then they become receptive to learning more about the sacramental system of the Church., etc. and this is when it becomes necessary for help from priests and deacons.

I believe that we must meet people where they are “presently” in order to help them to eventually embrace a fuller knowledge of the truth of Jesus’ gospel.

Each person must do his part in the body of Christ, but we do not all do the same thing. 1 Corinthians 12

 

[RockyRoad]

It seems we have not been really told or understood or accepted our Christmas gift of salvation,which is only given to some and most be freely accepted with joy and thanks and praise.We do not inherit heaven as if by right or on demand or by being good or doing good.We will be rewarded not with heaven but in heaven for our good works imho as I understand it. I also understand that there are many good workers in hell - it seems we are born sinners and as such unacceptable to God - twinc

Sorry…but could you name those in hell?

 

[peary]

Here is my question:

I have been reading/participating in a number of threads showing the Catholic teaching of faith and works being necessary for salvation and the protestant view of faith alone. In most of these threads, a Catholic poses a question like, ‘Can you get to heaven without loving God, forgiving your neighbor, etc’. The protestant will respond that you do need to do those things, etc. And this is where I get totally lost.

From the Catholic stand point, love is a work. Forgiveness is a work. This is the point where the protestant tries to interpret James 2:24 and Romans showing that faith alone is needed and the faith James is talking about is a similar, but different kind of faith than Romans.

**Actually, as a cradle Catholic Christian, I have never been taught (as far as I remember) that ‘love’ is a ‘work’ or that ‘forgiveness’ is a work. When I as a Catholic think of ‘works’ I immediately think of the corporal and spiritual works of mercy that *come out of ***one’s faith. They are a natural flow from one’s faith. However, because of the human condition, we get lazy, and we must continue these works through sheer will and the help of the Holy Spirit. And these points is what James is talking about.

From where I sit, it sounds like protestants really do think you need works, but they see it as a needed-but-not-necessary action. You have to do them, but you don’t need to. But protestants clearly don’t really think that, otherwise it wouldn’t be faith alone. Help me understand the subtlety of this difference.

I am NOT trying to start a thread where the dicussion breaks down into the fractured debate described above. If you can provide me an example without using Scripture, that would be great. I only say no Scripture because quoting Romans or James doesn’t help me understand what you understand. Analogies would be super.

I’ll try to post back with clarifying questions.