Faith without Good works

[scimitar60]

When us Catholics are being bashed about the apparent ‘You are saved even without good works’ by various protestants, we simply reply with: Read James 2:14.

I find it funny how it is beyond obvious what this scripture is saying; yet the protestants seem to bend it so much beyond belief that it means something totally different!

Check this out, protestant website about what it ‘really’ means.

isv.org/musings/musing06.htm

 

[catholictiger]

When us Catholics are being bashed about the apparent ‘You are saved even without good works’ by various protestants, we simply reply with: Read James 2:14.

I find it funny how it is beyond obvious what this scripture is saying; yet the protestants seem to bend it so much beyond belief that it means something totally different!

Check this out, protestant website about what it ‘really’ means.

isv.org/musings/musing06.htm

i like what the pope said in one of his general audiences

this is a paraphrase

good faith is faith that works through love

he also said faith alone is in a since correct as long as it doesn’t take away from love of christ and love of neighbor and such

 

[Bookcat]

Faith and works in these two:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

We are saved “without good works”…that is there is nothing we do of ourselves to “earn” our initial justification…such is a grace…but I will let you read both audiences…he gets into these things there…

 

[catholictiger]

Faith and works in these two:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

We are saved “without good works”…that is there is nothing we do of ourselves to “earn” our initial justification…such is a grace…but I will let you read both audiences…he gets into these things there…

this is where i pulled this qoute from btw if you didn’t notice

 

[Bookcat]

this is where i pulled this qoute from btw if you didn’t notice

Yes…and but he says much more…so I provided the whole…and best to read the whole in context…(avoids misunderstandings and it is a very rich text!)

 

[PLeeD]

Check this out, protestant website about what it ‘really’ means.

isv.org/musings/musing06.htm

There is nothing on that web page that disagrees with what the Pope says in those two sermons. I suggest you read them so you will understand Catholic teaching.

All protestants I know agree to the same thing; we are saved by faith that works through love. That is wildly different from saying we are saved by works + faith. No works we do can save us. If they did, then Christ died in vain.

Understanding what the Pope teaches might also allow you to avoid baseless protestant bashing in the future.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Yes, the contents of the website make sense to me:

“Faith without works cannot save anyone…Faith must prove itself in the deeds it produces…Faith that does not issue in actions is superficial and spurious…”

I can’t think of a Protestant or Catholic that would disagree with the above statements.

To me this means we must act upon our faith. It is like in the story of the woman that was bleeding. Her faith told her, “If I can only touch the tassle on his garment, I will be healed.” And her faith was strong enough that she did it, she ‘worked’ her way up to Jesus, touched His garment, power flowed from Jesus, and she was healed. Jesus said to her, “Your faith has saved you.”

Well, what healed her? The power of Jesus, or her faith? Scripture says it was the power of Jesus, but Jesus himself said it was her faith! And from her point of view, it was the work of touching His garment! Of course it was the power of Jesus that healed her, but without strong enough faith, she wouldn’t have done the ‘work’ that her faith told her was necessary.

So, it is from different points of view whether we say it is faith, works, or grace by which we are saved. All are necessary, all links in a chain. Each link in the chain can be said to save us.

So, it is quite proper to say our faith saves us, presuming we act upon it to avail ourselves of Jesus’ saving grace.

Noah acted on his faith. Abraham and Moses acted on their faith. By faith they did what they did. And by faith in Jesus we do what we do, we follow the law of Christ. He is our Lord as well as Savior.

 

[Bookcat]

More for ya all:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html

hope all will read it…it along with the other two can give very good understanding of what Paul meant…

 

[scimitar60]

There is nothing on that web page that disagrees with what the Pope says in those two sermons. I suggest you read them so you will understand Catholic teaching.

All protestants I know agree to the same thing; we are saved by faith that works through love. That is wildly different from saying we are saved by works + faith. No works we do can save us. If they did, then Christ died in vain.

Understanding what the Pope teaches might also allow you to avoid baseless protestant bashing in the future.

Most protestants I know use the ‘faith without good works’ as an excuse for a sinful lifestyle. No need to get offended.

 

[scimitar60]

I think I used the wrong context and words to describe what I meant; I merely wanted it to be a small discussion about the topic. I apologise to anyone that got offended by my poor wording.

 

[PLeeD]

Most protestants I know use the ‘faith without good works’ as an excuse for a sinful lifestyle. No need to get offended.

I know no protestants who would say that. My opinion is that what you describe is an insignificant minority within the protestant community. Focusing attention on that sort of non-christian position, and then assigning it to all protestants, is a form of prejudice if not outright bigotry.

I think I used the wrong context and words to describe what I meant; I merely wanted it to be a small discussion about the topic. I apologise to anyone that got offended by my poor wording.

I’m not offended. I merely pointed out your error.

How about posting a link to a web site that actually supports your statement about what protestants believe? Then we can discuss that site. Instead, you posted a protestant web site that echoes what the Pope has said.

In fact, I think this small discussion has been very worthwhile! I hope it might help other Catholics move past the stereotype you described.

 

[MarcoPolo]

All protestants I know agree to the same thing; we are saved by faith that works through love. That is wildly different from saying we are saved by works + faith. No works we do can save us. If they did, then Christ died in vain.

Most of the internet Protestants I have encountered would have a hesitation with saying even works of love justify. No?

 

[PLeeD]

Most of the internet Protestants I have encountered would have a hesitation with saying even works of love justify. No?

And they would be right to do so, as would any Catholic, according to this:

The Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification (JDDJ), signed by both Lutheran World Federation and The Roman Catholic Church on 31 October 1999, clearly stated that “consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics.” [2] In Roman Catholic and Lutheran doctrines, as expressed under section 4.7 no.37, "we confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit.

See how works follow justification? Works of love are a sign of justification, but the works themselves don’t justify.

 

[MarcoPolo]

"we confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit.

See how works follow justification? Works of love are a sign of justification, but the works themselves don’t justify.

That’s not quite what that says on close examination, particularly when you compare that statement with Catholic teaching in isolation of a joint declaration.

Good works do follow justification. But that does not preclude the necessity of a faith that works in love being that which justifies. Faith-love is a singular concept. As Pope Benedict stated:to believe* is to conform** to Christ and to enter into his love. So it is that in the Letter to the Galatians in which he primarily developed his teaching on justification St Paul speaks of faith that works through love (cf. Gal 5: 14).*The love cannot be separated from the faith. That’s why Pope Benedict said: *At this point Luther translated: “justified by faith alone”. …Luther’s phrase: “faith alone” is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love.In fact, the Pope included BOTH faith and love as that which testifies to justification: “faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justification”*Now this last line is important. Again, the Pope says BOTH faith and love testify to the free gift of justification. And yet he, with qualification, supported Luther’s idea that faith alone justifies, even though in this last line he said faith testifies to justification. In other words, the Pope is saying #1 justification is by faith and #2 faith follows justification. Therefore, in Catholic theology, the free gift of justification can be said to be by “faith working through love” as well as having faith and love bearing witness to that justification.

 

[quasimodo]

“justified by faith alone” is not a problem as long as we agree that what is meant by “faith” is a living faith … a dead faith does not justify. James makes clear that dead faith does exist and that works give faith life.

Likewise, “faith plus works” is not in error as long as we don’t see them as being separate or divisible. They (faith and works) must be like Christ … indivisibly fully divine and fully human.

 

[Cristiano]

When us Catholics are being bashed about the apparent ‘You are saved even without good works’ by various protestants, we simply reply with: Read James 2:14.

I find it funny how it is beyond obvious what this scripture is saying; yet the protestants seem to bend it so much beyond belief that it means something totally different!

Check this out, protestant website about what it ‘really’ means.

isv.org/musings/musing06.htm

John MacArthur is a well known protestant theologian that fully supports the idea of faith and works and obedience to Christ the Lord. He fights the thinking of some protestants that accept Jesus as Savior but not as Lord. He still has plenty of other arguments to disagree with the Catholic Church.

 

[PLeeD]

Not sure I agree with your detective work there Marco.

I said:

Works of love are a **sign **of justification, but the works themselves don’t justify.

Then you quoted the saying:

“faith that is active in love **testifies **to the freely given gift of justification”

I’ve bolded the words ‘sign’ and ‘testifies’. Who is the intended witness of the sign or the testimony? In both cases I would say that the witness is not God, since he already knows our hearts. The signs and testimony are witnessed by other people.

In other words, the Pope is saying… faith follows justification.

Sorry, I didn’t see that message anywhere in the passages you quoted.

Therefore, in Catholic theology, the free gift of justification can be said to be by “faith working through love” as well as having faith and love bearing witness to that justification.

The protestant theology that I am familiar with, and have always been taught would say exactly the same thing.

I think the point that you are making is that even demons believe that Jesus is the son of God, but that doesn’t justify them. Belief, or in other words faith, requires more. The outward earthly evidence of the faith that saves is good works.

Those works should flow from the Holy Spirit through those who are justified. Can those works flow from a source other than the Holy Spirit? If the Holy Spirit is already present, is the person not already justified!

That this point, I still have to stand by my statement that “Works of love are a sign of justification, but the works themselves don’t justify.” And I still don’t see any difference between that statement and the quotes you supplied.

Again, the Pope says BOTH faith and love testify to the free gift of justification.

I notice the Pope didn’t say “BOTH faith and love justify”, he only said both testify. Even Martin Luther would agree with that.

Can you provide a quote from Catholic authority that says justification is the result or product of works?

Correct me if I"m wrong, but I gather that the official Catholic position is that good works will be rewarded in heaven. That is, someone with loads of good works will get to sit in the front row, while someone with real faith but few good works will assuredly be in the same auditorium, but will have tickets for the nosebleed section.

There is sound scriptural basis for that, but none that I know of that says works justify.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Sorry, I didn’t see that message anywhere in the passages you quoted.

faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justificationThis statement by the Pope is in reference to faith being a testimony of justification, i.e. following justification.

n you provide a quote from Catholic authority that says justification is the result or product of works?

Of course we all agree that justification is a free gift. The response is faith that works in love, which the Pope said in my previous post when he said Luther was correct in saying “justification by faith alone” because the Pope believes faith is only one that works in love. He was also clear to define believe itself as a “conformity to Christ.”

Remember, for the Catholic, justification has a beginning that is entirely a free gift. But unlike most Protestant groups, justification is not a single moment in time but a process that includes sanctification.*CCC#2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.*See also: Council of Trent, session 6:
*we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.*The full context of the Catechism quote is also from Trent:*Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.When we cooperate with grace by good works, we are further sanctified, which Catholics consider part of justification since justification entails all facets of getting right with God. More from Trent:…the words of the Apostle: Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord; for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name; and, do not lose your confidence, which hath a great reward. And, for this cause, life eternal is to be proposed to those working well unto the end…
*

 

[PLeeD]

faith that is active in love testifies to the freely given gift of justificationThis statement by the Pope is in reference to faith being a testimony of justification, i.e. following justification.

I think you are reading it wrong.

If he said “faith testifies to the freely given gift of justification” then the statement would agree with your point. But it doesn’t say that.

It says “faith that is active in love testifies…”

“Faith” isn’t testifying to anything. It’s the good works that follow as a result of the faith that testify.

I won’t respond any more on this point since the horse is dead.

I’ll merely say that I don’t think there is any disagreement regarding justification between what I read in the Pope’s statements, or in the other quotes you’ve given, and what I believe, or what I’ve seen taught in various protestant churches. You are holding onto an idea that there is a disagreement, and I’m not sure why. The point of disagreement, if there is one, is so fine as to be insignificant.

I think it all boils down to what happens according to the RCC after justification. Namely sanctification. But for the sake of this discussion I’m focusing more on the initial salvation of the justified person, and less on the later process of becoming righteous, since we are saved long before we can hope to achieve righteousness by our own works.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I think you are reading it wrong.

If he said “faith testifies to the freely given gift of justification” then the statement would agree with your point. But it doesn’t say that.

It says “faith that is active in love testifies…”

“Faith” isn’t testifying to anything. It’s the good works that follow as a result of the faith that testify.

I’ll finish by saying basic grammar has the subject “faith” corresponding to the verb “testifies.” “that is active in love” is a descriptive clause for what kind of faith.

A substitute example would be “The football that was thrown by Manning was caught by Wayne.” Manning is not caught by Wayne, the football is.

But for the sake of this discussion I’m focusing more on the initial salvation of the justified person

Generally speaking, yes, Protestants and Catholics are aligned on the grace-alone nature of initial justification.