Faith without Good works

[scimitar60]

Nice discussion happening here, quite interesting.

 

[James224]

Faith and works in these two:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html

We are saved “without good works”…that is there is nothing we do of ourselves to “earn” our initial justification…such is a grace…but I will let you read both audiences…he gets into these things there…

You are not interpreting this document correctly. There is a difference between the Works of the Law and Good Works. As the DRV says in Gal 5:6, “…but faith that worketh by Charity.” It’s Good Works done IN GOD’S GRACE, not apart from His grace. Nowhere does it say in scripture “Faith Alone”. It’s not earning salvation or our initial justification by doing good works if they are done IN GOD’S GRACE. Rom 8:24 says, “For we are saved by hope.” Does this mean we are saved by HOPE ALONE?

 

[PLeeD]

As the DRV says in Gal 5:6, “…but faith that worketh by Charity.”

We are saved by faith alone, but not just any kind of faith. The kind of faith that saves is “faith that worketh by Charity”. There is no other way to interpret or read it.

I am dumbfounded by the stubbornness in holding onto the notion that it means something else. The Pope says it, but some just can’t accept.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

We are not saved by “faith alone”. The only time that the words “faith” and “alone” are used together in scripture as “faith alone” is in James 2:24.

James 2:24 says we are NOT saved by “faith alone”.

We are not saved by faith + works.

We are saved by faith and every Catholic would agree with that.

What kind of faith?

The best way I know to put it is this: We are Grace Fully saved by that faith which “continues through” “God willed works” unto death.

“God willed works” do follow genuine justifying saving faith but they do not always follow that faith.

When they don’t is when we mortally sin. If we die in that state we go to Hell.

Justification is not a discrete only instantaneous event it is a continuing event just as God is an eternally continuing reality.

Satan came up with the idea of “faith alone” because he knew that if he could persuade people into believing that the Continuing component of salvation was not necessary then he could snare people into Hell when they fell into mortal sin.

People who believe in “faith alone” don’t worry about dying in a state of mortal sin.

They don’t “Work out” their salvation with fear and trembling as St. Paul told us to do when he was inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell us that in the Bible.

God says “faith alone” does not save in James 2:24. Catholics believe God when He says that. Protestants try every kind of gymnastic linguistic maneuver to believe 180 degrees opposite of what God told us in James 2:24.

The real question portestants need to ask themselves is do they believe God or not believe God when in James 2:24 He tell us that we are not saved by “faith alone”.

 

[fhansen]

We are saved by faith alone, but not just any kind of faith. The kind of faith that saves is “faith that worketh by Charity”. There is no other way to interpret or read it.

I am dumbfounded by the stubbornness in holding onto the notion that it means something else. The Pope says it, but some just can’t accept.

But faith that works by charity still means that works (our cooperating with God in performing acts of love) are involved-that* our part is a necessary ingredient of salvation-in spite of the fact that God could save us without* our cooperation if He so desired. It’s an important distinction because it counters the radical Reformed notion that our wills are completely corrupted, that we’re totally depraved, and that only an imputed righteousness could make us just.

By this, Catholic teaching affirms that man’s integrity wasn’t totally lost at the fall-that he can still make right choices, and that God expects him to do so, with some help (grace) but without coercion. In this way we can become truly, “ontologically” right, as God purposed for us all along, reversing the decision, so to speak, within ourselves, that Adam & Eve made when they rejected His authority. This is another way of saying that sanctification is our salvation, that salvation is a process-God the potter molding us into beings acceptable to Him, but only with our consent.

This ensures that works-from the right motivation-are necessary, and opposes the optional thinking that some may entertain-an option that can ironically lead to much evil- because it allows that sinners can enter heaven, that sin and salvation aren’t necessarily mutually exclusive. Because of this option, some even end up in the extreme position of thinking their salvation is assured by their “faith” in spite of sometimes quite debauched life-styles.

In any case the gospel becomes watered down; God ends up being rather foolish with this Reformed theology, I think. He created man, gave man commandments he couldn’t obey or live up to, then blamed man for not obeying them, casting him into exile out of the garden, then arbitrarily decided to save him anyway in spite of the fact that nothings changed-man’s unrighteousness still remains to one degree or another.

In reality God simply commands man to do what He’s always commanded him to do: not merely believe but to love, because by love the commandments are fulfilled, to paraphrase Rom 13:10 and sum up the greatest commandments.

 

[Cruxis117]

We are saved by faith alone, but not just any kind of faith. The kind of faith that saves is “faith that worketh by Charity”. There is no other way to interpret or read it.

I am dumbfounded by the stubbornness in holding onto the notion that it means something else. The Pope says it, but some just can’t accept.

So, you’re basically stating the same thing we’ve stated for the last…2000 years. That you do need faith, as well as charity (or good works) with that faith.

 

[PLeeD]

So, you’re basically stating the same thing we’ve stated for the last…2000 years. That you do need faith, as well as charity (or good works) with that faith.

No, I’m not saying that at all. This is so ridiculous. Let’s take a ridiculous example to make the point.

Say you have just become justified. Consider that to mean whatever you think it could or should mean. You have just this instant found salvation in Jesus Christ through faith in Him.

Now before anything else happens, a bomb goes off and you are killed. You had no time to even think about good works, let alone do any.

Are you saved and on your way to heaven despite a lack of having accomplished any good works?

If the answer is yes, then you agree that we are saved by faith alone.

If you answer no, then you don’t agree with the Pope.

As I’ve said, and as your Pope has said, good works are the consequence of the kind of faith that saves. We are saved by faith alone. The works that flow from the love for Christ are a sign to other humans that you have the kind of faith that saves.

 

[Cruxis117]

No, I’m not saying that at all. This is so ridiculous. Let’s take a ridiculous example to make the point.

Say you have just become justified. Consider that to mean whatever you think it could or should mean. You have just this instant found salvation in Jesus Christ through faith in Him.

Now before anything else happens, a bomb goes off and you are killed. You had no time to even think about good works, let alone do any.

Are you saved and on your way to heaven despite a lack of having accomplished any good works?

If the answer is yes, then you agree that we are saved by faith alone.

If you answer no, then you don’t agree with the Pope.

As I’ve said, and as your Pope has said, good works are the consequence of the kind of faith that saves. * We are saved by faith alone*. The works that flow from the love for Christ are a sign to other humans that you have the kind of faith that saves.

Now, let’s consider something else. What about all of the good things the person might have done before they converted? Is it not said in Scripture that Jesus will judge us according to our works? It has been said in the Gospel of Matthew, for heaven’s sake.

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.. Surely God is merciful in instances such as the one that you just thought of, but Scripture itself clearly refutes such a statement that you’ve made. We are NOT saved by faith alone.

I agree with the Pope, as well as the Magisterium and 2000 years of Sacred Teaching.
Good works are not a “sign”. Faith is active with our works, and is completed by our works (James 2: 22). Notice the last part of what I just said. “Completed by our works”. You claim that Faith alone suffices and, quote unquote, “saves”. Whereas in Scripture and in Church Teaching, they say otherwise, that our* Faith is completed by our works*, meaning that our Both go Hand in Hand. One cannot be without the other. You** NEED faith and you NEED** *good works. *

The Pope (whichever one you are referring to at this time) equally agrees with this statement. Trust me my friend, you are sadly mistaken. Faith alone does not save. Whoever is under this misconception must confront 2000 years of teaching and Scripture, which itself is a product of Sacred Tradition.

 

[James224]

We are saved by faith alone, but not just any kind of faith. The kind of faith that saves is “faith that worketh by Charity”. There is no other way to interpret or read it.

I am dumbfounded by the stubbornness in holding onto the notion that it means something else. The Pope says it, but some just can’t accept.

Using the verse we both have quoted (Gal 5:6):

1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. 80 But “faith apart from works is dead”: 81 when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body. (Catechism of the Catholic Church) Notice: Faith (alone) does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does not make him a living member of his Body. What’s missing? A working Faith. We can have a DEAD FAITH (James 2:17-21 which says, “So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. 2:18. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works. Shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
2:19. Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. 2:20. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
2:21. Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar?”) As my namesake says in James 2:24, “Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?” How are we justified? BT WORKS and NOT by FAITH ONLY!