Faith, Works, and a better idea

[2ndRateMind]

And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
Mark 12:41-44 KJV

I am not entirely sure of the Catholic doctrine on this, but among us other Christians, there has been considerable debate on this matter over the centuries. The general consensus seems to be that works alone do not get you into Heaven, since some are in a better financial position to perform far greater works than others, and so that would be unjust. The theme seems to be that it is Christian faith, and faith alone, that secures salvation.

But I am dubious about this, too. From a global point of view, accident of birth, and consequent upbringing, seems to play a significant rôle in what we believe, and I am not sure how that can be just, either.

So I propose a third ‘middle way’ solution. This is that entrance through St Peter’s gate is determined by character; by who and how we are, regardless of faith determined ideology. In this view, salvation is an ontological, (a ‘free’ way of being), rather than a moral (what one says or does) or epistemological (what one thinks, believes and knows), qualification. I wonder what you all make of this idea?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

Yes indeed Brother/Sister in Christ. Our actions will be judged according to our capacity and what Our Lord has graced us with. Much knowledge= much responsibility! Peace

 

[fhansen]

Yes, and good character happens to produce good works, by its nature. So the Church teaches, regarding God’s judgment of us at the end of our lives, quoting St John of the Cross,
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

Love is the definition of man’s justice, righteousness, holiness, perfection-of his good character. And this is why the Greatest Commandments position love as being man’s highest obligation.

And this is why Jesus said that we must be clean on the inside first, because then the outside, our external actions, will follow accordingly, for the right reasons.

 

[BartholomewB]

The passage from Mark’s gospel that you quote here is referenced only once in the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

2444 “The Church’s love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition.” This love is inspired by the Gospel of the Beatitudes, of the poverty of Jesus, and of his concern for the poor.234 Love for the poor is even one of the motives for the duty of working so as to "be able to give to those in need."235 It extends not only to material poverty but also to the many forms of cultural and religious poverty.[236]

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P8F.HTM

What is your difficulty with this passage? Surely this saying of Jesus about the widow’s mite addresses precisely the point you make about people who can afford to be more generous than others.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Actually, I have no qualms about this passage. Just with the world where 1% of the population control as much wealth as the remaining 99% put together. I really think we need to get that sorted out. People hunger and starve out there, so that the rich may enjoy luxury.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[BartholomewB]

So are you asking a question about the Christian churches’ conflicting teachings on faith and works, or about politics and economics?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Love is the definition of man’s justice, righteousness, holiness, perfection-of his good character. And this is why the Greatest Commandments position love as being man’s highest obligation.

Can’t argue much with any of that, my friend fhansen.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[2ndRateMind]

So are you asking a question about the Christian churches’ conflicting teachings on faith and works, or about politics and economics?

So, I see the world as a complex, complicated construction, where pretty much everything is connected to everything else, my dear BartholomewB. And clearly, church theological and philosophical teachings (or lack of such) are connected to the political, social and economic environment in which we find ourselves.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Incidentally, I’m still interested in reactions to the idea that salvation is an ontological, rather than a primarily moral or epistemological matter. Of course, I recognise that morality and epistemology are not irrelevant to salvation, but I am, at this stage in my pilgrimage through life, toying with the idea that they are relevant only by way of the contributions they make to our ways of being.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Vico]

… I am not entirely sure of the Catholic doctrine on this, …

By faith and also works as the partial cause through cooperation with grace.

Owing to the infallible decisions laid down by the Church, every orthodox theory on predestination and reprobation must keep within the limits marked out by the following theses:

a) At least in the order of execution in time (in ordine executionis) the meritorious works of the predestined are the partial cause of their eternal happiness;
b) hell cannot even in the order of intention (in ordine intentionis) have been positively decreed to the damned, even though it is inflicted on them in time as the just punishment of their misdeeds;
c) there is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

Pohle, J. (1911). Predestination. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm

 

[Wesrock]

The Catholic Church teaches that no good work begins in a human being. It begins in God who moves (or enables) the human being to good works by grace. Where Catholics differ from Lutheran and Reformed theology is that the human being has the ability to choose to cooperate or not cooperate with that grace. It is in this respect, that a human being has agency to do works (in cooperation with God), that we stress both faith and works. Lutheran and Reformed theology teach that a human being is passively moved by God to good works. Catholics teach that God enables a human being to choose to do good works, that the human being has an active role in that process.

The scale of the good work isn’t at issue. A rich man has the means to host a large event, whereas a poor person might only be able to donate a small amount. Which is more meritorious isn’t based on which work is bigger on a worldly, monetary level. Certainly God accounts for our circumstances and means. God is more concerned with our spiritual development and to what level we spiritually cooperate with his moving grace, which again, is only possible because God first sends us his grace to enable to such cooperation.

 

[2ndRateMind]

The Catholic Church teaches that no good work begins in a human being.

Interesting. Do you not think this a somewhat misanthropic view? I have met many people, for instance, with no professing faith, that are still reasonably moral, and who have done considerable good works. Do you think, maybe, that God is motivating them, despite their unbelief?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Pug]

This is that entrance through St Peter’s gate is determined by character; by who and how we are, regardless of faith determined ideology. In this view, salvation is an ontological, (a ‘free’ way of being), rather than a moral (what one says or does)

(Adults, assuming grace). I think Catholic teaching envisions man’s free response to God’s call. So an action/response is expected. But that is not to say that God cannot call a man in an isolated, totemic tribe, nor that such a man cannot respond. God is perfectly capable of comprehending that man’s response.

 

[2ndRateMind]

So that is all interesting, too.

Incidentally, following up on the opening post, in this view, virtue and vice would not necessarily be what one thinks, says or does, but ‘ways of being’ either consistent or inconsistent with the divine way of being, pure unconditional love, or Godliness. Is that conception anything like what Catholicism teaches?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[Pug]

Virtue is more like a disposition toward doing rather than an action, in a western view. Virtue tends toward the good, and a christian seeks conformity to Christ, to live in communion/union with God. A lover seeking their beloved. From the outside, such a person may appear to do a variety of things, though that is not to say all actions are consistent with holiness. We do have a concept of grave sin.

Edit to add: “God is Love” is a traditional Christian way of expression.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Virtue is more like a disposition toward doing rather than an action, in a western view. Virtue tends toward the good, and a christian seeks conformity to Christ, to live in communion/union with God. A lover seeking their beloved. From the outside, such a person may appear to do a variety of things, though that is not to say all actions are consistent with holiness. We do have a concept of grave sin.

Yes, I think disposition, due to a ‘way of being’, is a good way to put it.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[2ndRateMind]

Can’t disagree with any of that (name removed by moderator)

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

2444 “The Church’s love for the poor . . . is a part of her constant tradition.”

So, my friend BartholomewB, it occurs to me to wonder how the Catholic church can be so rich, while the poorest cannot afford to feed themselves and their families?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[2ndRateMind]

So, just to drive the point home, it is estimated the Catholic Church has a net worth of some 10-15 billion dollars: according to this, [here](nhttp://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/06/the-10-richest-religions-in-the-world/], the Catholic church is the richest in the world]

Best wishes, 2RM

PS. Haven’t figured out how to make links work, yet. Is that because I’m still a newbie?

 

[PatienceAndHumility]

What is needed in this context is perspective. The material wealth of the church ought to primarily be used in aid of her mission, i.e. preserving Truth, beauty, worship of God. Perspective is important. Is 15 billion dollars a lot of money for an institution like the church? There are multitudes of corporations, indeed private individuals worth far more. And these are profit driven.

Without going into the charitable works of the church in detail, nor its multinational reach in respect of its mission, this material wealth is perhaps more of an indication of how the church has accomplished so much despite owning comparatively little. The church’s assets through the middle ages is a different story altogether- she was the very heart of civilization itself in the west. A whole separate topic.

But returning to your original point- how the Church can be so rich, whilst the poorest cannot feed themselves. This points towards a systematic problem of the economic system- the Church’s 15 billion is a drop in the ocean in this context.