Faith & Works

[Psalm45_9]

ak_mike:

. He said that no work we can do is sufficient to justify us before God, only Christ’s sacrifice.

Wow! That’s what the Catholic Church teaches!!! Isn’t that funny?

“If anyone shall say that man can be justified before God by his own works which are done either by** his own natural powers**, or through the teaching of the Law, and without divine grace through Christ Jesus: let him be anathema.”

Canon 1 of the Canons on Justification from the fourth session of the council of Trent.

 

[mtr01]

I really got into this with a bunch of Reformed Baptists once. It seems that the adherent of the *sola fide *doctrine seem to use as Abraham (as mentioned by St. Paul) as a proof. Specifically, Genesis 15:

Gen 15:6 Abram believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice.

Thus, all you have to do is believe, and you will be justified. However, they did not have an answer for Psalm 106:

Psa 106:30 Then Phinees stood up, and pacified him: and the slaughter ceased.
Psa 106:31 And it was reputed to him unto justice, to generation and generation for evermore.

This passage clearly shows that Phineas performed and action (pacified the Lord) and he was justified (was reputed to him as justice).

 

[Zooey]

JKirkLVNV:

But most Protestants are not universalists, they don’t believe that saying Christ’s sacrifice has accomplished everything MEANS that everyone will be saved. They mean that nothing can be added to that sacrifice to make it more sufficient, which is what Holy Mother Church teaches as well. The only way I can sum it up (and I struggle with this as a former Protestant) is that our faith is something that we do, that there are explicit actions and conduct that go with being a Christian, that to have faith in Christ is to follow Christ. Does anyone not think that works?

That is also what we believe in the Methodist church,too, that we can never make Christ’s suffering,death, & resurrection more than it all ready is.
But unless you are acting on that faith, it is not really faith at all. (That is what the book of James is all about…).
I actually think this is what most Protestants believe.At least the ones that I know.

 

[RedDeathsMask]

Zooey:

That is also what we believe in the Methodist church,too, that we can never make Christ’s suffering,death, & resurrection more than it all ready is.
But unless you are acting on that faith, it is not really faith at all. (That is what the book of James is all about…).
I actually think this is what most Protestants believe.At least the ones that I know.

Most high church Protestants have the same belief in justification as the Catholic Church, it’s just the terminology is different. The Luthern interpretation of sola fide is the same as the Catholic Church’s teaching on justification.

 

[VociMike]

I am frankly tired beyond words with the protestant obsession with works. Catholics believe we are required not just to profess our faith but to live out our faith in works (a work, in my view, is any time we freely cooperate with the grace of God in doing His will). I don’t think that view is much different than the protestant view. The big difference, it seems to me, is that protestants set up a straw man by arguing, falsely, that we think we can earn our way into heaven with our works, that is, we can obligate God to allow us into heaven. Of course, Catholics acknowledge that salvation is a gift, not something we earn. But protestants continue to claim we believe something we do not believe. Like I said, I am extremely tired of the whole subject, because it’s a made-up dispute.

 

[Pug]

Zooey:

That is also what we believe in the Methodist church,too, that we can never make Christ’s suffering,death, & resurrection more than it all ready is.
But unless you are acting on that faith, it is not really faith at all. (That is what the book of James is all about…).
I actually think this is what most Protestants believe.At least the ones that I know.

The Methodists are very similar to the Catholics in regards to works/faith. But many people from the traditions more like John Calvin do not see it the same way. If you talk to most Evangelicals, they seem less like Methodists and more like Reformed or certain types of Presbyterian or certain Baptists. Anglicans also seem similar to the Methodists (no surprise).

 

[theMutant]

ak_mike:

Recently in the Christian Club at my school (very Protestant), a student began discussing the issue of faith and justification. He said that no work we can do is sufficient to justify us before God, only Christ’s sacrifice. He said to believe that on can have justification through works is to diminish Christ’s sacrifice. How would I respond to him?

Thank You for all your help-
ak_mike

You must respond with a loud AMEN to the first part of his statement and with a question to the second.

No work we can do is sufficient to justify us before God, only Christ’s sacrifice.

This is an absolute and undeniable teaching of the Catholic Church formally defined in session six of the Council of Trent.

To believe that on can have justification through works is to diminish Christ’s sacrifice.

Then why are we commanded to do works? Why did St. Paul state that he did good works so that he would not be disqualified after having preached to others? Why did Jesus say that the “goats” would be sent to everlasting fire for failing to do good works (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc.) while the sheep would go to heaven because they did these things?

His position is contrary to Scripture. The Catholic position is this. We are justified solely by Christ’s grace which He won for us on the Cross. That grace is applied us through both faith and works.