Faith = Works

[FillTheVoid]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

 

[Catholic_Dude]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

Believe means obey with real faith, as the context is very clear for example Jesus goes onto explain stuff like “unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you”.

 

[water]

Faith != Works

James 2:17 So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

 

[on_fire]

and to what degree do we have to believe ?is it so simple to just believe?the demons believe and shudder.you must go to the greekword used here in the Bible for the true meaning of “believe”.it is more then simple faith.we must follow all his words.he told the rich man what he needed to do to be saved…follow ALL the commandments…love one another as I have loved you…and much much more…Im sure others will follow with more teachings…bless you on your journey and good learning…

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Jesus said if we had faith as a big as a mustard seed, we could say to a hill, ‘Go from here to there!’ and it will go (see Mt 17:2).

I would guess nobody has faith as big as a mustard seed. (Shame on us.)

So, a question to all supporters of the doctrine of Sola Fides, how much faith do you need to be saved?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Jesus said if we had faith as a big as a mustard seed, we could say to a hill, ‘Go from here to there!’ and it will go (see Mt 17:2).

I would guess nobody has faith as big as a mustard seed. (Shame on us.)

So, a question to all supporters of the doctrine of Sola Fides, how much faith do you need to be saved?

St Paul was one step ahead of you:
2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

1 Cor 13:2, 13

 

[water]

I wanted to add some more:

James 2: 17 Faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2: 18 Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will domonstrate my faith to you from my works.
James 2:19 you believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble

Rom 2: 5: By your stubornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works.

 

[levi86]

Personally I don’t see the difference between faith and works. Heres how Webster’s defines “works”…

: Activity in which one exerts strength **or faculties **to do or perform something: a : sustained physical **or mental effort to overcome obstacles and achieve an objective or result **(emphasis added)

So by making a conscious decision on a daily basis to “believe” one is performing a “work”, what’s the difference between that and other works?

 

[VociMike]

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

And then later He said “…the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you that do not believe.”

What words? How about “I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

And “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.”

Those who do not eat His flesh and drink His blood are not doing the work of God.

 

[water]

Personally I don’t see the difference between faith and works. Heres how Webster’s defines “works”…

Can one say he loves Jesus, but when a homeless passes by his house, he can’t wait to have him gone without helping him?

To define “works” in the Bible, one cannot use Webster alone! The ten commandments define “works”.

 

[levi86]

Can one say he loves Jesus, but when a homeless passes by his house, he can’t wait to have him gone without helping him?

To define “works” in the Bible, one cannot use Webster alone! The ten commandments define “works”.

I agree with you water. That’s my point, non Catholics constantly perform works (in the form of having faith), yet when it comes to other works they don’t feel they are obligated.

All I’m saying is that faith is indeed a “work”, making a conscious decision to have faith is no different than making a conscious decision to help that homeless person you spoke of.

 

[water]

I agree with you water. That’s my point, non Catholics constantly perform works (in the form of having faith), yet when it comes to other works they don’t feel they are obligated.

All I’m saying is that faith is indeed a “work”, making a conscious decision to have faith is no different than making a conscious decision to help that homeless person you spoke of.

I got your point now. Thanks!

 

[heisenburg]

Please understand, comments are not directed at anyone here… The blatent redefining of Faith is a huge pet peeve of mine so I may rant a little.Please forgive me

Faith : To hope for a thing not yet seen.

There is a trend in many churches to confuse exactly what faith is. Faith is the action of believing in soemthing that cannot be proven. Faith is not god coming in your body and taking over you limbs. Faith is Not a mystical force that will automaticly make you do good things. Faith is not a new inate property that can never change once found…

Faith is (and this is how the bible uses it) very simply the belief in something that we can never prove. Attempts to redefine this word have twisted scripture, and allowed for people to come up with extremely strange doctrines like Sola Fida and OSAS.

Faith does NOT equal Works, though believing (and therefore faith) is a work.

People liek to misconstrue things like Hebrews 11. They will say, see, their faith caused all these people throughout the OT to do something. It wasn’t them, but this magical Faith… It is not Faith that caused them to do something… abraham believed that God was right and true, because he believed, Abraham knew he must do and therefore he did.

Do not confuse when the bible says because he had faith, he did X as sayign his faith Compelled and Forced him to do soemthing.

It tires me greatly to see people changing the meaning of sentances and words in the bible that they wouldn’t otherwise do if they werent talking about the bible. It’s still the same language. Just because you are talking about scripture doesnt mean i have to get an entirely new lexicon.

Example…

a Father tells his kid: If your good, tonight, ill take you to Taco Bell for a encherito.

The chikd has NO proof that his dad will actually do it, but he believes his dad will.

So… The kid has faith in what his dad says, and therefore is good.

Are you going to say that it was the kids faith that requires and forces the kid to be good and that the child really had no say in the matter? No… because that doesnt make sense.

So why does it make sense in the bible…

If you are trying to redefine faith ONLY with respect to the bible, youa re doing two things…

1. Violating scripture as Paul tells Timothy not to argue over the meaning of words for they will lead you to ruin
2. Borderlining on the first great heresy: Gnostisicm. There is no way i will know that secret meaning without you telling me.

============================
Faith : To hope for a thing not yet seen. Implying it means anything else is failing into a lie​

Again… forgive my rant…

In Christ

 

[RCCDefender]

Oh, I think faith itself is a work. If a terrible disaster befalls someone it’s a major work to have faith in God that everything will turn out okay. Many people have fallen away during times of trouble because it was just too hard for them to have faith. It’s easier to be angry at God when something bad occurs than it is to have faith in His providence.

 

[MariaG]

Not sure how to proceed. So I think I will start by posting some definitions, as defined by the Catholic Church.

Faith - In general, is an assent of the mind to the truth of some proposition on the word of another, God or man​

notice that the Catholic definition of faith is solely an assent of the mind. This is compatible with scripture quoted in previous posts showing that, in fact, faith alone will not save you.

Hope - One of the three theological virtues infused into the soul together with sanctifying grace and having God as its primary object. It makes us desire eternal life or the possession of God and gives us the confidence of receiving the grace necessary to arrive at this possession. The grounds of our hope are: the omnipotence of God, or the fact that He can give us eternal life and the means to attain it; His goodness, or the fact that He wills to give us eternal life and the means to attain it; and His fidelity to His promises, or the fact that He has pledged Himself to give us eternal life and the means thereto. Since the virtue of hope is based on God’s power, goodness, and fidelity to His promises, it must be sure and unshakable in the sense that God will certainly offer us the means necessary for the attainment of eternal life and that if we employ our free-will to cooperate with the grace of God we shall certainly be saved.​

Non-Catholic frequently misunderstand when Catholics say “I hope for heaven”. They fail to realize that this hope we are referring to is not any hope of ours but is only possible by God’s power in the first place.

charity - A supernatural, infused virtue, by which we love God above everything for His own sake, and our neighbor as ourselves for God’s sake. As an act of supernatural virtue it requires a motivation based on Divine revelation. Charity, in the strict sense of the word, cannot exist in a person who has never heard of revelation, though he may perform many works from the sole motive of pleasing God. Charity, unlike natural virtues, is not acquired through frequent repetition of the same acts, but is infused with sanctifying grace; hence it is sometimes used to signify this grace. It is a Divine name: God is charity (1 John 4:16). Almsgiving is called charity because it is one of its principal works. Today, outside of the Catholic Church, charity signifies any good turn done to the needy, regardless of the motive that prompted it.

---

This is why Catholic so firmly denounce, as in fact so does scripture the concept that we are saved by faith alone. Faith is just the intellectual assent. One must also have hope and charity, also gifts from God if one is to be saved.

Jimmy Akin wrote an article about how for some Protestants the definition of faith alone = faith, hope and charity of the CAtholic definition.

If this is what you are trying to express, we may actually be in agreement in concept, just not in terms.

I have to go, but when I get back I try to find that article again and post a link.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[MariaG]

I would encourage all to read the article for themselves although I will post a tidbit here. This actually is not the one I was looking for, but it does bring up the difference in definitions of terms and why the Catholic Church so firmly denounces the “faith alone” formula.

I will still look for the other one.

Righteousness and Merit by James Akin
When the Protestants appeared proclaiming that “man is justified by faith alone” this would instantly be read by the ordinary man in the street as “man is justified by intellectual assent alone”—a position known as easy believism or antinomianism, which even (the good kind of) Protestants themselves reject (since they define faith in such a way that it includes the virtues of hope—trust in God for salvation—and charity—the principle which produces good works in the life of the justified Christian).

The Church was left with no choice but to prohibit the use of the phrase “faith alone.” It would have been grossly misunderstood by the common man (as the fact Protestantism has been plagued since its inception with a battle against internal antinomian factions). And, in fact, the formula “faith alone” is against the language used in the Bible, for while we regularly read in Scripture of justification “by faith”, the only time the phrase “faith alone” appears in Scripture it is explicitly rejected as a means of justification (Jas. 2:24). Even if Protestants can give this text a meaning which does not contradict their doctrine, this does nothing to change the fact that the formula faith alone goes directly against the language of Scripture, even if not against the doctrine of Scripture.

 

[MariaG]

I found it!

Justification by Faith alone by James Akin

Here is a snippet. This article in general if the OP reads it will allow us to find out if we are talking about the same thing even though we define words differently. It also shows the historical and scriptural reasons of why the Catholic church defined the words as she has done.

Whether a Catholic will condemn the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[I_Leatherman]

[SIGN]…your love has saved you…[/SIGN]