Faithless people doing good works equivalent to those “God works through Christians”?

[Bishopite]

Hurst said:

I don’t know about this. You are basically calling it the “grace of existence”. While I agree that our existence is good, I wouldn’t call that grace, nor do I think anyone else calls it grace. It is called “nature”. And nature is not the same as grace, from what I understand. We are now on the level of semantics, but it is important that we at least distinguish between nature and grace. All creatures are good by virtue of their created nature, but not all creatures benefit by the grace of God’s favor.

Uh…who made nature? God. Not all creatures have an eternal soul by virtue of their existence either, so how can they receive grace like us if grace’s ultimate goal is eternal life?

Our existence is because Gods grace: Catholic Catechism:

**2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. **This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:” Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may **always live with God: for without him we can do nothing. **

**Again, the preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. **

Consider demons or the devil as an example. In their nature, they are good, since God created it good. But they no longer benefit from the grace of His favor, which they had rejected on a bad gamble. Yet they still give glory to God (though unwillingly) by their existence, and they cannot change their nature. They are not totally “evil”, otherwise they wouldn’t “exist”, for total evil cannot exist of itself. God brings good out of them, but He doesn’t need to give them grace for that.

No demons AREN’T good they are demons. They used to be good when they were angels but have been sealed without grace since they chose NOT to follow God but follow satan, so their nature is evil always.

Does natural ability = grace?

Yes. 1 Cor 4:7 “For who sees anything different in you? **What have you that you did not receive? **If then you received it, why do you boast as if it were not a gift?”

Catechism:

1723 The beatitude we are promised confronts us with decisive moral choices. It invites us to purify our hearts of bad instincts and to seek the love of God above all else. It teaches us that true happiness is not found in riches or well-being, in human fame or power, or in any human achievement - however beneficial it may be - such as science, technology, and art, or indeed in any creature, **but in God alone, the source of every good and of all love: **

This would include natural abilities too

 

[Bishopite]

Hurst said:

I don’t know about this theological term you refer to, but when I hear it, I keep thinking of the times Jesus says “My grace is sufficient for you”. This means something different than what you are calling “sufficient grace”, I think.

I think you are thinking of 2 Cor 12:9 where St. Paul asks God three times to take away a thorne in his flesh but God refuses and says to Paul “My grace is sufficient for you.” Paul already received sufficient grace in his life now has efficacious grace by virtue of his baptism and conversion through faith in Jesus Christ, so God is saying that His grace on Paul will sustain him through his life if he continues in faith.

Again, I’m not saying I know it all, I don’t, but I do know this is an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church;** that all good comes from God and that grace precedes faith and any good work. **It’s called sola gratia, grace alone. We can’t do any good uless God in that instance gives us the grace to do it.

Eph 2:8-10–“For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God –
not because of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.”

 

[hurst]

Bishopite:

No demons AREN’T good they are demons. They used to be good when they were angels but have been sealed without grace since they chose NOT to follow God but follow satan, so their nature is evil always.

Not according to St. Thomas:

Everything which exists, so far as it exists and has a particular nature, tends naturally towards some good; since it comes from a good principle; because the effect always reverts to its principle. Now a particular good may happen to have some evil connected with it; thus fire has this evil connected with it that it consumes other things: but with the universal good no evil can be connected. If, then, there be anything whose nature is inclined towards some particular good, it can tend naturally to some evil; not as evil, but accidentally, as connected with some good. But if anything of its nature be inclined to good in general, then of its own nature it cannot be inclined to evil. Now it is manifest that every intellectual nature is inclined towards good in general, which it can apprehend and which is the object of the will. Hence, since the demons are intellectual substances, they can in no wise have a natural inclination towards any evil whatsoever; consequently they cannot be naturally evil.
Augustine rebukes Porphyry for saying that the demons are naturally deceitful; himself maintaining that they are not naturally so, but of their own will.
catholicprimer.org/summa/FP/FP063.html#FPQ63A4THEP1

hurst

 

[hurst]

Bishopite:

Our existence is because Gods grace: Catholic Catechism:

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. …

But your quote from CCC 2001 has nothing to with existence. If you are saying existence is part of the preparation for grace, and is therefore a grace, then what do you say about creatures without a soul who nevertheless exist?

hurst

 

[Bishopite]

hurst:

But your quote from CCC 2001 has nothing to with existence. If you are saying existence is part of the preparation for grace, and is therefore a grace, then what do you say about creatures without a soul who nevertheless exist?

Frist of all, I think you are still thinking there is only one type of grace, which there isn’t. You are saying grace is grace, well I’m not, and neither does Catholic theology. There are different types or degrees if you will, of grace. The Blessed Virgin Mary receive a different type of grace than the rest of creation, didn’t she? She received complete perfect grace and yet we didn’t so therefore there are different types for degrees of grace that God who is the creator of life gives to whom He pleases by virtue of His creating them.

Why do you mention this section of the Catechism as not speaking of existence and yet completely disregard section 1723 which I also posted?? CCC 2001 says the preparation for man is doesn’t say every other non-human being. The existence of every human life is the preparation for the reception of what I’ve termed as efficacious grace which is the grace needed for eternal life

CCC
[1723](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1723.htm’) The beatitude we are promised confronts us with decisive moral choices. It invites us to purify our hearts of bad instincts and to seek the love of God above all else. It teaches us that true happiness is not found in riches or well-being, in human fame or power, or in any human achievement - however beneficial it may be - such as science, technology, and art, **or indeed in any creature, but in God alone, the source of every good and of all love: **

---

---

God alone is the source of every good and of all love. Do you not agree that human existence or human life is a grace from God?
If not then did you give yourself life?

Perhaps I didn’t use a more specific word to explain myself, so I’ll phrase it this way. Every human has an eternal soul [something animals and non-human things don’t posess] and by virtue of having human existence or one could call it life which is the combination of body and an eternal soul, that then is a grace given to us by God since grace is something good as CCC 1723 says…all good comes from God alone.

And I NEVER meant that all existence was a preparation for grace.I meant to say that all human existence IS a grace given to us by God because it is good and God is the source of everything good, therefore HUMAN existence is a grace given to us by God alone CCC 1723.

Sufficient grace is a preparation for efficacious grace only for those who have an eternal soul even though not all people receive efficacious grace because they freely choose not to receive it, it is still a preparation since Gods desire is to have everyone in heaven with Him. That’s how and why He created us; to know, love and serve Him.

Whether non-human beings receive sufficient grace, I suppose they do yet because they DON’T have an eternal soul they can’t receive efficacious grace, but I’m not for sure about that to be honest. St. Thomas Aquinas says animals have “sensitive souls” but NOT eternal souls like we do. They rely on their senses and are sensory based. We have rational and eternal souls, will and intellect.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Bishopite,

I’m glad to see that you are still in this discussion. This is a very valuable and fruitful topic.

I think, though, that things are getting confused and off-track again. Please read Dave’s post # 60 for a succinct summary of what I believe to be the main issue here.

The original poster’s question did not seem to contemplate God’s ever present “grace” in keeping all things in being and making all actions possible. To be sure that is the case, ALL actions by ALL beings are somehow made possible by God. (Even evil actions, right?) But if that is all we are trying to say, it doesn’t go very far in helping us answer the original poster’s question about whether a person can do something good without grace.

When you said:

Bishopite:

I do know this is an infallible teaching of the Catholic Church;** that all good comes from God and that grace precedes faith and any good work. **It’s called sola gratia, grace alone. We can’t do any good uless God in that instance gives us the grace to do it.

especially that last part:

Bishopite:

We can’t do any good uless God in that instance gives us the grace to do it.

I got a little worried! We CAN do good without actual grace (God giving us grace “in that instance”). The good we do, however, will not be salutory or have and relation to eternal life, or our supernatural end.

Do you see what I am getting at, and why I want to steer the discussion to that very important point in the Catholic Church’s doctrine on grace?

God Bless,
VC

 

[Bishopite]

[hurst]Not according to St. Thomas:

Everything which exists, so far as it exists and has a particular nature, tends naturally towards some good; since it comes from a good principle;

Of course that quote only proves what I’ve been saying. St.Thomas is saying all creation is good because of the source of what is its *nature which all comes from God alone. When God creates something it is given a “nature.” Hence human nature and animals have another type of nature.

I’ve said that since the giving of life to us as humans with an eternal soul is good and a type of grace [because ALL good and ALL grace comes from God alone], then all humans with an eternal soul receive some type of grace just by virtue of their existence or life.

If you don’t agree with this then you are saying humans with an eternal soul don’t receive some type of grace by virtue of their existence.

because the effect always reverts to its principle. Now a particular good may happen to have some evil connected with it; thus fire has this evil connected with it that it consumes other things: but with the universal good no evil can be connected. If, then, there be anything whose nature is inclined towards some particular good, it can tend naturally to some evil; not as evil, but accidentally, as connected with some good. But if anything of its nature be inclined to good in general, then of its own nature it cannot be inclined to evil. Now it is manifest that every intellectual nature is inclined towards good in general, which it can apprehend and which is the object of the will. Hence, since the demons are intellectual substances, they can in no wise have a natural inclination towards any evil whatsoever; consequently they cannot be naturally evil.
Augustine rebukes Porphyry for saying that the demons are naturally deceitful; himself maintaining that they are not naturally so, but of their own will.
catholicprimer.org/summa/FP/FP063.html#FPQ63A4THEP1

Yes I agree with St. Thomas. The phrase, “since demons are intellectual substances, the can in no wise have a natural inclination towards an evil”

This means that they orginally were created NOT as evil but as good because God gave them life and grace and after that they chose by free will to be evil, yet they originally or by their nature were good, now they are eternally evil.

hurst

You said demons give God glory which is incorrect. When they were angels they used to give God glory, however as I said prior, they are sealed without grace since they freely chose to follow satan so they don’t give God glory. Only those who obey Gods truth give God glory. Demons are NOT angels any
longer they are demons. Angels are angels.

Perhaps you could answer this:

Is your existence as a human who has an eternal soul, is that existence because of Gods grace?

Is your nature because of Gods grace?

 

[batteddy]

Yes, the first responders to this post are right. “Naturally” good acts can be done without grace, but one must be in sanctifying grace for them to be meritous and supernaturally good. All human actions are, spiritually speaking, utterly depraved and infinitely imperfect without the grace of God.

However, there is a difference between actual graces and sanctifying grace. And even if one is not yet baptized and in sanctifying grace, and is incapable of meriting, some of their good works may be inspired by actual graces.

1. 
   *]The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the grace by which he is justified. (De fide.)
   
   So even before one is justified, actual grace may inspire good works in them, such as those good acts of the will which lead to their eventual justification.

 

[Bishopite]

Verbum Caro]Bishopite,

I’m glad to see that you are still in this discussion. This is a very valuable and fruitful topic.

I think, though, that things are getting confused and off-track again. Please read Dave’s post # 60 for a succinct summary of what I believe to be the main issue here.

Yes it has gone off of topic.

The original poster’s question did not seem to contemplate God’s ever present “grace” in keeping all things in being and making all actions possible. To be sure that is the case, ALL actions by ALL beings are somehow made possible by God. (Even evil actions, right?)

No, no, God does NOT create evil nor is somehow associated with evil. Our free will allows us to do evil. God is only always good and ONLY does what is GOOD. Sorry for the capitals I mean no disrespect for anyone, I’m just trying to convey what I know to be true. God alone gives all good and is the source of all good. God is NOT the source of evil and does no evil.

Philosophy teachers like to use that argument to destroy Christians or others who believe in God.

But if that is all we are trying to say, it doesn’t go very far in helping us answer the original poster’s question about whether a person can do something good without grace.

Again, most if not all of those in this thread are thinking of one type of grace only, which isn’t what Catholic theologians say about grace. www.newadvent.org look for the word grace.
We can do nothing apart from God first giving us the grace to do it.

When you said:

especially that last part:
I got a little worried! We CAN do good without actual grace (God giving us grace “in that instance”). The good we do, however, will not be salutory or have and relation to eternal life, or our supernatural end.

I NEVER said that we can do good without actual grace, where did you get that from??? Never said that. I’ve maintained the truth that WE CAN’T DO ANY GOOD WITHOUT GODS GRACE, NO MATTER HOW YOU DEFINE GRACE, SUFFICIENT GRACE, ACTUAL GRACE, EFFICACIOUS GRACE, ETC. ALL GRACE IS FROM GOD ALONE AND MAN CAN’T EVEN MAKE HIS HEART BEAT WITHOUT GOD FIRST ALLOWING HIM TO DO SO. If God didn’t think of us every moment, every second, then we would cease to exist. I hope that this will suffice

Do you see what I am getting at, and why I want to steer the discussion to that very important point in the Catholic Church’s doctrine on grace?

God Bless,
VC

The original thread was "Faithless people doing good works equivalent to those “God works through Christians”?

Faithless people can do good personal works but even those personal works are because God gave them some type of grace in order for them to do it.

That’s why humans (Those without faith who do good works) won’t honestly be able in the end won’t to give themselves credit as doing something good because as 1 Cor 1:26-30 says:

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
For consider your call, brethren; not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth;
but God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise, God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong,
God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are,
so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.
He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom, our righteousness and sanctification and redemption;
therefore, as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast of the Lord.”
We can’t even boast to doing good personal works apart from faith, for in the end it all comes back to the original source as St. Thomas says, and the Catechism says and every Catholic and Protestant theologian says also;that that source is Gods grace alone.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Bishopite,

I certainly see what you are saying. But I contend that this does NOT answer the op’s question, nor does it sufficently address the misconception that one cannot do a morally good action without God’s grace.

If you mean by “grace” the power that God uses to keep our heart beating, then every action (yes, even evil actions) are supported somehow by that “grace”. But that is not what we are talking about. Certianly God causes the sun to shine on the good and wicked alike, but can those wicked perform a morally good act without 1)sanctifying grace? 2) actual grace? (and this is what, I contend, most people, including the op, mean by “grace”).

The answer is yes. Do you agree?

God Bless you!
VC
p.s. Note that in my previous post I said that under the definition of “grace” that is all-encompassing and holding all things in being, God makes possible evil actions. I did not say He was the efficient cause of them. Evil is a privation of the due good, and as such, in a certain respect doesn’t even have being.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

I NEVER said that we can do good without actual grace.

Nonetheless, it is Catholic doctrine that we can do good without actual grace.

 

[hurst]

Bishopite:

Frist of all, I think you are still thinking there is only one type of grace, which there isn’t.

Not that there is one type, but that all types have one aspect, namely, that it is a good we are able to reject (at least, I would think). This does not deny the existence of different degrees, either.

Bishopite:

Why do you mention this section of the Catechism as not speaking of existence and yet completely disregard section 1723 which I also posted??

Because I didn’t think it applied. It does not mention existence, either.

Bishopite:

“… true happiness is … in God alone, the source of every good and of all love”
God alone is the source of every good and of all love.

This has nothing to do with existence being from grace.

Bishopite:

Do you not agree that human existence or human life is a grace from God?
If not then did you give yourself life?

Are you saying that anything God does is grace, and anything not a grace is something we do ourselves?

I believe we exist through God’s power. We did not have a choice, such that we could reject it. Therefore it is not a “grace”. What is grace is that He called us and made us able to be partakers in His life!

I do not believe that all goodness flows only through grace. God created, moved by His goodness, but He did it by His power. He made some creatures inanimate and temporary. Others He made capable of choosing His grace.

Bishopite:

…that then is a grace given to us by God since grace is something good as CCC 1723 says…all good comes from God alone.

Here is where you are mixing up your reasoning (that good only comes through grace). In fact, even CCC 1723 does not say all good comes through grace. It is your own conclusion that since both grace and good are from God, that all good must come by grace. But I don’t see anything conclusive there; grace is from God’s goodness, but so is His power. Your logic fails here, because you would then have to conclude that His power is from grace, but His power also keeps the devils in existence - and do devils receive grace?

hurst

 

[hurst]

Bishopite:

I’ve said that since the giving of life to us as humans with an eternal soul is good and a type of grace [because ALL good and ALL grace comes from God alone], then all humans with an eternal soul receive some type of grace just by virtue of their existence or life.

If you don’t agree with this then you are saying humans with an eternal soul don’t receive some type of grace by virtue of their existence.

Again, I think this is semantics. Is it by “grace” that God created anything? I personally would not call it a grace, but rather an act of God’s power, which still proceeds from His goodness. Others have said it is “common grace”, but perhaps that is because they think they have to use the word “grace” to identify God as the cause. I agree God is the cause, but I don’t think we have to use the word “grace” to indicate that.

Bishopite:

You said demons give God glory which is incorrect. When they were angels they used to give God glory, however as I said prior, they are sealed without grace since they freely chose to follow satan so they don’t give God glory. Only those who obey Gods truth give God glory.

Then what do you say about this?

How even the devils render glory and praise to GOD.

“Sinners, such as those of whom I have just spoken, are placed in this life in order to augment virtues in My servants, as the devils are in Hell as My justiciars and augmenters of My Glory; that is, My instruments of justice towards the damned, and the augmenters of My Glory in My creatures, who are wayfarers and pilgrims on their journey to reach Me, their End. They augment in them the virtues in diverse ways, exercising them with many temptations and vexations, causing them to injure one another and take one another’s property, and not for the motive of making them receive injury or be deprived of their property, but only to deprive them of charity. But in thinking to deprive My servants, they fortify them, proving in them the virtues of patience, fortitude, and perseverance. Thus they render praise and glory to My Name, and My Truth is fulfilled in them, which Truth created them for the praise and glory of Me, Eternal Father, and that they might participate in My beauty. But, rebelling against Me in their pride, they fell and lost their vision of Me, wherefore they rendered not to Me glory through the affection of love, and I, Eternal Truth, have placed them as instruments to exercise My servants in virtue in this life and as justiciars to those who go, for their sins, to the pains of Purgatory. So you see that My Truth is fulfilled in them, that is, that they render Me glory, not as citizens of life eternal, of which they are deprived by their sins, but as My justiciars, manifesting justice upon the damned, and upon those in purgatory.”

• Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna (p. 74)
  catholicprimer.org/catherine/catherine_dialog.pdf

Bishopite:

Is your existence as a human who has an eternal soul, is that existence because of Gods grace?

Is your nature because of Gods grace?

I would say no, but rather that it is by God’s power. I had no choice in the matter.

But by His grace extended to my nature, I may reverently worship our great King and God!

hurst

 

[Bishopite]

[hurst]Again, I think this is semantics. Is it by “grace” that God created anything?

I didn’t say by His grace alone that He created everything but that may be true. Sure His power had something to do with it also. I said that by His grace He created humans who have eternal souls and to have such a life is to receive some sort of grace first by Him called sufficient grace.

I personally would not call it a grace, but rather an act of God’s power, which still proceeds from His goodness. Others have said it is “common grace”, but perhaps that is because they think they have to use the word “grace” to identify God as the cause. I agree God is the cause, but I don’t think we have to use the word “grace” to indicate that.

Again, Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers who teaches and answers on the radio and is the head of Catholic Answers apostolate, the largest in the world and who knows a great deal more about Catholic theology and has Catholic theologian friends at his staff. Akin wrote a book called “The Salvation Controversy” which dealt with types of grace and on page 81 he addresses what grace is:

"Catholics must say that, though God may give efficacious grace only to some,** he gives sufficient grace to all**. This is presupposed by the fact that he intended the atonement to be sufficient for all. Vatican ll states that “since Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate calling of man is in fact one and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery.”

Perhaps you have your position but I know for a fact that Akin knows Catholic theology better than most everyone in the US, he’s one of the best Catholic apologists. I’m very confident that Akin has many theologians at his calling, is correct on this subject because that’s whay he does for a living.
**Sufficient grace to all means everyone receives sufficient grace because they have a human soul capable of attaining eternal life. **

Then what do you say about this?

How even the devils render glory and praise to GOD.

“But in thinking to deprive My servants, they fortify them, proving in them the virtues of patience, fortitude, and perseverance. Thus they render praise and glory to My Name, and My Truth is fulfilled in them, which Truth created them for the praise and glory of Me, Eternal Father, and that they might participate in My beauty. But, rebelling against Me in their pride, they fell and lost their vision of Me, wherefore they rendered not to Me glory through the affection of love, and I, Eternal Truth, have placed them as instruments to exercise My servants in virtue in this life and as justiciars to those who go, for their sins, to the pains of Purgatory. So you see that My Truth is fulfilled in them, that is, that they render Me glory, not as citizens of life eternal, of which they are deprived by their sins, but as My justiciars, manifesting justice upon the damned, and upon those in purgatory.”

• Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna (p. 74)
  catholicprimer.org/catherine/catherine_dialog.pdf

Uh…ok I’d have to read this further and it is interesting and it does seem they do give God glory even though they are damned. If I’m wrong then I’ll concede, no problem. I’m not as confident in that issue as I am in grace. Nevertheless, as you may know, private revalations which is what this seems to be, are just that private and don’t always sink up with Church teaching and I’d take the infallible teachings of the Church first before a Saints private revelation. Many Saints have said things that don’t exactly seem to sink up with Church teaching and they aren’t endowed with the charism of infalibility as is the magisterium and papacy are so I choose first the Church’s teachings. I’ll look into it and let you know if I find out one way or another. I could be wrong, sure and I’m not afraid to say so, yet those in Hell are void of charity, so says Dr. Scott Hahn a theologian, therefore how can they give glory if they can’t give charity?

I would say no, but rather that it is by God’s power. I had no choice in the matter.

Do you appreciate God giving you life? I do, because He first loved me, sola gratia [grace alone].

But by His grace extended to my nature, I may reverently worship our great King and God!

Alright, if that’s what you want it to be then perhaps it is a matter of semantics, however, if we are speaking of “grace” in theology, then I use theological terms

 

[Bishopite]

[hurst]Not that there is one type, but that all types have one aspect, namely, that it is a good we are able to reject (at least, I would think). This does not deny the existence of different degrees, either.

I agree. And there are differing types of grace, given at differing times and some receive some portions and others receive other portions, e.g. Mary received more and different grace than you and I.

Are you saying that anything God does is grace, and anything not a grace is something we do ourselves?

NO. I’m not saying anything we do ourselves is not a grace, that’s Calvinism or monergism. I’m saying that anything “good in us” is first because of Gods grace even people who do is for the wrong reason. You said that people can do good without Gods grace, I reject that and so does Catholicism. Sola gratia is grace alone, through Chirst alone.

I believe we exist through God’s power. We did not have a choice, such that we could reject it. Therefore it is not a “grace”. What is grace is that He called us and made us able to be partakers in His life!

We exist because of Gods love and grace and power, because God so loved the world…John 3:16.

God created, moved by His goodness, but He did it by His power. He made some creatures inanimate and temporary. Others He made capable of choosing His grace.

Right I agree.

How about this from Augustine: It’s not a private revelation but a theological statement to what the Church believes.

Here is where you are mixing up your reasoning (that good only comes through grace). In fact, even CCC 1723 does not say all good comes through grace. It is your own conclusion that since both grace and good are from God, that all good must come by grace. But I don’t see anything conclusive there; grace is from God’s goodness, but so is His power. Your logic fails here, because you would then have to conclude that His power is from grace, but His power also keeps the devils in existence - and do devils receive grace?

Well, then read Augustine who says (De Corrept. et Gratia ii) that** “without grace men do nothing good when they either think or wish or love or act.”**

I think that says it all.

 

[hurst]

Bishopite:

…
**Sufficient grace to all means everyone receives sufficient grace because they have a human soul capable of attaining eternal life. **

Ok, this is all about human souls receiving sufficient grace for eternal life, which I would agree with.

…yet those in Hell are void of charity, so says Dr. Scott Hahn a theologian, therefore how can they give glory if they can’t give charity?

You are correct that they are void of charity. The point is that they are giving glory to God against their will, not because they want to. God brings good even out of evil. In this case He does so by using them as the ministers of His justice.

Bishopite:

You said that people can do good without Gods grace, I reject that and so does Catholicism. Sola gratia is grace alone, through Chirst alone.

I say people can do “natural” good, apart from their will, with or without charity, with or without faith, by their very existence, even before they receive what you call sufficient grace. And the basis is that the rest of the creation also does “good” naturally in the same way, apart from any kind of grace that leads to eternal life. The mechanism of nature is inherently good because God made it good. Animals do not need the sufficient grace because they are not called to eternal life. Yet they do natural good, taking care of their young, etc., by instinct, given them by God’s power in His goodness. Even when we sin, we are operating in a good manner, seeking something we think is good, though we err.

Furthermore, someone showed that the Church teaches that “natural moral good” can be done without actual grace also.

But these are just distractions when we consider the actual topic: can we do supernatural good without grace of any kind, and the answer is no. By supernatural I mean ordered to that which is above nature, for God. Grace is something higher than nature, and elevates nature without destroying nature.

I think someone said that grace can also help us do something naturally good. I can accept that, but it doesn’t follow that it is always required for doing natural good.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Bishopite:

Well, then read Augustine who says (De Corrept. et Gratia ii) that** “without grace men do nothing good when they either think or wish or love or act.”**

I must certainly agree. And yet, I take it he means “supernatural” good, the kind pleasing to God and helpful to his neighbor. I said before that without grace we can’t even wish to do good for someone. St. Catherine was told that without charity, any good work is rotten before God, but that God would still reward the good deed temporally.

Self-love is a tree on which grow nothing but fruits of death, putrid flowers, stained leaves, branches bowed down, and struck by various winds. This is the tree of the soul. For you are all trees of love, and without love you cannot live, for you have been made by Me for love. The soul who lives virtuously, places the root of her tree in the valley of true humility; but those who live thus miserably are planted on the mountain of pride, whence it follows that since the root of the tree is badly planted, the tree can bear no fruits of life but only of death. Their fruits are their actions, which are all poisoned by many and diverse kinds of sin, and if they should produce some good fruit among their actions, even it will be spoiled by the foulness of its root, for no good actions done by a soul in mortal sin are of value for eternal life, for they are not done in grace. Let not, however, such a soul abandon on this account its good works, for every good deed is rewarded, and every evil deed punished. A good action performed out of a state of grace is not sufficient to merit eternal life, as has been said, but My Justice, My Divine Goodness, grants an incomplete reward, imperfect as the action which obtains it. Often such a man is rewarded in temporal matters; sometimes I give him more time in which to repent, as I have already said to you in another place. This also will I sometimes do, I grant him the life of grace by means of My servants who are pleasing and acceptable to Me. I acted in this way with My glorious apostle Paul, who abandoned his infidelity, and the persecutions he directed against the Christians, at the prayer of St. Stephen. See truly, therefore, that, in whatever state a man may be, he should never stop doing good.

• Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna (p. 83)
  catholicprimer.org/catherine/catherine_dialog.pdf

St. Catherine is a Doctor of the Church, so I think her writings have some value.

Here I take it we should recognize that good actions can be done outside of grace - even in mortal sin, and though not helpful for eternal life, will be rewarded one way or another.

hurst

 

[Bishopite]

[hurst]I must certainly agree. And yet, I take it he means “supernatural” good, the kind pleasing to God and helpful to his neighbor. I said before that without grace we can’t even wish to do good for someone. St. Catherine was told that without charity, any good work is rotten before God, but that God would still reward the good deed temporally.

Exactly. I agree. As I said before as 1 Cor 1:30 says all of our “good” isn’t worth anything since it ultimately came from God first and He is the creator of that is good. Later on in 1 Cor 3 St. Paul uses the metaphor of staw, haw, wood all things that are easily burned up in this life [our works NOT done out of charity or for the love of Christ] yet we will still be saved because we did do “works” that were pleasing to God, hence those useless works we’ve carried to death will need purifying as to rid us of those usless works
A good action performed out of a state of grace is not sufficient to merit eternal life, as has been said, but My Justice, My Divine Goodness, grants an incomplete reward, imperfect as the action which obtains it. Often such a man is rewarded in temporal matters; sometimes I give him more time in which to repent, as I have already said to you in another place. This also will I sometimes do, I grant him the life of grace by means of My servants who are pleasing and acceptable to Me. I acted in this way with My glorious apostle Paul, who abandoned his infidelity, and the persecutions he directed against the Christians, at the prayer of St. Stephen. See truly, therefore, that, in whatever state a man may be, he should never stop doing good.- Dialogue of St. Catherine of Sienna (p. 83)

catholicprimer.org/catherine/catherine_dialog.pdf

St. Catherine is a Doctor of the Church, so I think her writings have some value.

True she is a doctor of the Church as is St. Augustine and both have equal weight I’m sure and you DID bring up a great point there about demons and Gods glory. It’s a new one to me so I’m actually not in any position to confidently answer adequately and you seem to know much more about that than I

I was thinking though about the idea that demons give God glory. I’m not so sure I’d say that in that sense. Perhaps I’d say demons show Gods glory; others who obey Him–angels in heaven and those on Earth give God glory. Again, I’m really don’t know much about this subject.

I think you said that Gods power created our existence. That’s true and I would say that Gods power did create our existence, yet His love and grace is what keeps us alive. Demons don’t have good actions so they are able to give God glory.

Here I take it we should recognize that good actions can be done outside of grace - even in mortal sin, and though not helpful for eternal life, will be rewarded one way or another.

Again it is how one defines grace. If they are thinking of grace as only the grace that enables us to have eternal life then that’s true, however, I disagree that good actions can be done outside of grace since their isn’t just one type of grace and any good [which includes any good man can do] as 1 Cor 1:30, CCC 1723 says because all “good” comes first from God. I hope that I’ve shown that I’m not just making this up, Catholic theologians teach this, I’m only paroting what they say.

I think you are still thinking grace is only of one type when I’ve show it isn’t and I know what your a saying and I’d agree for the most part, however, as I said about the word “works” before, if we are talking to a Protestant about “works” we need to be specific on what type of works we are speaking of.

So goes with grace, sufficient grace is given to everyone but it isn’t the type of grace that merits [rewards] eternal life.

Efficacious grace is only given to those who cooperate with sufficient grace and that grace is the type of grace that merits [rewards] eternal life.

God bless.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Bishopite,

I am glad that you are willing to continue this discussion. And I hope that you have been given some information that enables you to refine your understanding of the Catholic doctrine of grace.

When you say:

Bishopite:

however, I disagree that good actions can be done outside of grace since their isn’t just one type of grace and any good [which includes any good man can do] as 1 Cor 1:30, CCC 1723 says because all “good” comes first from God.

Can you explain how someone a)without sanctifying grace and b)without actual grace and c)without faith performs a naturally morally good act?

I suppose you would say, given your above statement that he does so by the “grace” of God, since “all good comes first from God.”

But if that is what you wish to assert, then can you explain how the same person a)without sanctifying grace and b) without actual grace and c) without faith performs a naturally immoral act?

By free will? Certainly. But isn’t the power given by God to enable this person to peform the morally good act the same power given by God to enable him to perform the immoral act?

Do you see the problem?

Does God give “grace” (in your broad general sense) to every pagan while they are acting in a just way, and then when they decide to act in an unjust way God removes and withdraws that “grace” (general and broadly defined) so as not to be held as a co-conspirator?

The point of this is to show that you MUST distinguish between a natural moral act and salutory act. The information that you find in many theology texts, catechisms, Jimmy Akin articles etc. must be read *very carefully, *because more often than not the “good acts” that the writers are refering to are already salutory acts. You have to dig pretty deep to find the basic teaching that yes, a pagan without any type of grace as it is normally understood (i.e. not prevenient “grace”, not God’s conservative power, etc) that a natural man without grace can perform one, at least one, solitary morally good action by the light of his natural reason and by the power of his natural will. The action is morally good. But it is not salutory.

This is a very important doctrine. It perserves the true nature of grace. It perserves the correct understanding of our NEED for grace.

Fr. Hardon has an excellent “Course on Grace” that you can find here:
therealpresence.org/archives/Grace/Grace_001.htm
Read, especially Part III: The Teaching of the Church .

Here Fr. Hardon quotes the First Vatican Council:

For there is in nature the power for a rational soul to think and do lawful things and this is not blameworthy, but justly and rightly praised. Nevertheless, since these things are done without faith and without grace, none of them has any connection with the godliness that brings a man to eternal life.

Fr. Hardon also quotes the Church’s condemnation of the errors of Quesnel:

ERRORS CONCERNING THE NECESSITY OF GRACE

1. 
   *](1). What is left in the soul that has losy God and his except sin and its effects, proud poverty, barren need, that is, the general inability to work, to pray, or to do any good work?
   *](38). Without the grace of the Savior the sinner is free for nothing but evil.
   *](39). The will that is not prepared by grace has no light except to go astray, no passion except for self-destruction, no strength except to wound itself, is capable of all evil and incapable of any good.
   *](40). Without grace we cannot love anything except to our condemnation.
   *](41). All knowledge of God, even natural knowledge, even among heathen philosophers, can come from God alone; and without grace such knowledge breeds only presumption, vanity, and opposition to God himself instead of adoration, gratitude and love.
   *](59). The prayer of the wicked is new sin, and what God grants them is a new judgment against them.

1. 
   Bishopite, the point is that we must be very careful and controlled and precise and even handed in our discussion of grace. The Church has had to constantly reign in, on both sides of the discussion, those who overstate the necesssity of grace and those who understate it. We can’t afford to do that in our undercatechized world.
   
   You might feel like you are the only one on the “other side” of this discussion and that you are being misuderstood or “ganged up on”. I deplore when these discussios get off the rails like this, because what inevitably ends up happening is that each person is trying to overcorrect the other side. Thus, it seems like myself, or Hurst, or Dave are obstinately refusing to acknowledge that God is source of all good and we run the risk of UNDERSTATING the need for grace.

 

[Verbum_Caro]

Bishopite,

The real issue, as I see it, is the point of deviation between three different persons: Pagan #1 (P1), Pagan #2(P2), and Christian (C).

If we talk about grace before there is any deviation, we aren’t really saying too much, at least in regard to part the original question: Can a non Christian feel compassion for the poor and choose give aid? Can a man do good works on “his own”?

1. 
   *]God creates P1, P2, and C – so far the all have the same “grace”
   *]God holds P1, P2 and C in being – same “grace”
   *]God gives P1, P2, and C an natural intellect to know the truth and a natural will to love the good – same “grace”
   *]God promulgates the natural law to P1, P2, and C – same “grace”
   *]P1 sees a hurt man and using his natural reason decides that it is just to aid him. P2 sees a hurt man and ignores him, in violation of his natural reason. – there is no deviation here, both are “using” the same kinds of “grace”.
   *]C sees a hurt man, decides it is just to aid him, and does so at of Love of God. – here is a deviation. C has sanctifying grace, and actual grace in this act of charity – his act not only is just like the P1’s, but also salutory. It relates to eternal life.
   
   It is that deviation between 5 and 6 that seems important to the discussion. We can, if we want to, talk about the grace that is common to all 3 persons, but the real “interesting part” is the special grace that the Christian has.
   
   P1 and P2 are on the same level when one of them decides to be just and the other decides to be unjust. There is no difference in grace between the two, right?
   
   What do you think of this oversimplified, and somewhat silly, schema?
   
   God Bless,
   VC