Fall of Lucifer/Creation of Satan

[Strategery]

Scripture is quite clear, however, about the existence of Satan - there is no argument about that.

Furthermore, he is active in the world today and he messes with people on an individual level. Personally I think he and his minions are pervasive.

 

[CentralFLJames]

In Genesis it says the devil fell to earth, but in John it said to hell. Where exactly does the devil “reside”, hell or earth?

Did God cast the devil into hell (or earth)?

Both. In the mental imagery of the ancient scripture writers hell was believed (and many still do) to exist at the center of the earth. With heaven above (accessible through the holy city) and hell below we have Eve’s banished children here on earth suffering in a precarious tension between knowing and experiencing both good-and-evil. But now that tension is resolved by Christ and its only a matter of time before we get a new heaven and earth after the second coming.

James

 

[Ron_Conte]

I have a vague memory from either school or something I read that the angels were given a vision of the incarnation and that the fallen angels’ sin was their refusal to worship Jesus Christ since he was also a material being. Did anyone else hear of this and can identify the source of this story?

This was believed and taught by Aquinas and other theologians of his time period.

The basis for this belief is that no one can enter Heaven, not even the angels, except through Christ. So the angels had to be tested, to see if they would willingly worship Christ in obedience to God. Those who refused, did so because God became man, and human nature is less than angelic nature; they rejected worship of Christ out of pride in their own nature. Those angels who refused to worship Christ fell from grace; those angels who did worship Christ next entered into the Beatific Vision.

[Matthew]
{18:10} See to it that you do not despise even one of these little ones. For I say to you, that their Angels in heaven continually look upon the face of my Father, who is in heaven.

 

[mary1173]

So to prove your point that Lucifer = Satan, you quote a Catholic encyclopedia which just re-affirms the fact with no evidence, other than claiming that Jerome believed it to be so, but the trail goes cold for some reason (more claims without proof). You do realize that simply repeating something doesn’t make it true, don’t you?

And while it may be a convenient fact that things non-Catholics don’t like often turned up in the Middle Ages, that doesn’t make it any less true.

It’s also really easy for people who take passages out of context to distort them as you have done in this case. Isaiah 14 continues:

Satan never laid low the nations, the king of Babylon did.

It doesn’t get much more obvious than calling “Lucifer” a man, which Satan is suredly not.

Just keep reading Isaiah 14. You cannot reasonably claim that this is Satan unless you lift 3 verses out of the passage with no consideration whatsoever for context.

The king of Babylon was behaving in the manner in which Satan had guided him to behave, not God. Your observation of the passage is not correct in that you choose not to see it for what it means. The kingdom was laid low by Satan because the king of Babylon performed deeds that were pleasing to the devil/Satan. Instead of performing deeds that were pleasing to God.

 

[Vile_Servant]

Where in scripture is the fall of Lucifer and the rise of Satan described?

Ezekiel 31:7-10
And he was most beautiful for his greatness, and for the spreading of his branches: for his root was near great waters. The cedars in the paradise of God were not higher than he, the fir trees did not equal his top, neither were the plane trees to be compared with him for branches: no tree in the paradise of God was like him in his beauty. For I made him beautiful and thick set with many branches: and all the trees of pleasure, that were in the paradise of God, envied him. Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Because he was exalted in height, and shot up his top green and thick, and his heart was lifted up in his height:

 

[mary1173]

So to prove your point that Lucifer = Satan, you quote a Catholic encyclopedia which just re-affirms the fact with no evidence, other than claiming that Jerome believed it to be so, but the trail goes cold for some reason (more claims without proof). You do realize that simply repeating something doesn’t make it true, don’t you?

And while it may be a convenient fact that things non-Catholics don’t like often turned up in the Middle Ages, that doesn’t make it any less true.

It’s also really easy for people who take passages out of context to distort them as you have done in this case. Isaiah 14 continues:

Satan never laid low the nations, the king of Babylon did.

It doesn’t get much more obvious than calling “Lucifer” a man, which Satan is suredly not.

Just keep reading Isaiah 14. You cannot reasonably claim that this is Satan unless you lift 3 verses out of the passage with no consideration whatsoever for context.

Isaiah 14:12 ''How have you fallen from the heavens [from Gods approval ]. God is speaking to the king of Babylon. ‘‘O morning star, son of the dawn! How you are cut down to the ground!’’ The King of Babylon shall never ascend to powers greater than God. The term ‘‘Lucifer’’ refers to Latin Vulgate meaning it is a name applied by the church Fathers, to Satan, the liar and performer of evil. Satanic acts toward others. destruction of the poor weak and oppressed. The King of Babylon wanted to be God. The King of Babylon performed the act of mowing down of the nations and fell out of Gods graces and approval.