Fall of Lucifer?

[Sandkicker]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

REad the story of Adam and Eve. The situation should be similar.
Adam and Eve should know they could not escape God’s eyes…

 

[Sherry_G]

Look around at all the very bright people you may know and ask yourself the same question. In fact, one could look in the mirror and then reflect on times that we have not followed God’s will but chose our own misguided path only to regret our actions later and repent. Look at those who are clearly “brilliant” but choose to refect God totally. Intellect and free will are gifts from God. How we decided to use them is our choice.

 

[teeboy]

The first commandment. Not everyone follows it.

According to Thomistic Theology, the angels, which were created before adam and eve, were given the same free will or liberty that adam and eve were given.

Just as we have the right to practice our religion (which requires weekly Mass Attendance), the angels had the right to obey God.

God gives us rights. It is up to us to exercise those rights via acts (as in acts of the apostles).

prayer is an act. going to Mass on Sunday to renew the covenant is an act. going to confession is an act. All of these acts are worthy in the eyes of God.

 

[Moro_Rock]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

The element of free will which God holds in high esteem.

It seems that character takes precedence over intelligence.

 

[Nicea325]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

Easily…God gave ALL angels a gift called free-will. Lucifer and his band of angels chose to rebel and knew of the consequences. Lucifer gambled and lost and now suffers for eternity due to his selfish PRIDE.

 

[fred_conty]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

God always champions the lowly and the meek, and uses them to accomplish his will.
Lowly and meek means to be childlike as Jesus said, “unless you become like little children you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.”

Childlike, lowly and meek, mean we trust God to guide and instruct us without question.
Just like a little child who puts his hand into his father’s with absolute trust to guide him. Or when asking his father a question, has unquestionable trust in his dad’s reply to him. And of course what good father every lets his little boy/girl down?

But in the unfortunate real event of Lucifer, he was not childlike, nor lowly nor meek, and because of this, only trusted in his own intelligence. He believed not in God who whould only direct him in goodness, but trusted himself, and therefore failed himself.

Every sin has that element of pride in it. Prayer is the opposite element that tells God we know that He knows more than us and that we submit our intelligence to him in complete trust.

And when we don’t pray, what is God perhaps thinking?

Just a thought.

 

[Bezant]

Look around at all the very bright people you may know and ask yourself the same question. In fact, one could look in the mirror and then reflect on times that we have not followed God’s will but chose our own misguided path only to regret our actions later and repent. Look at those who are clearly “brilliant” but choose to refect God totally. Intellect and free will are gifts from God. How we decided to use them is our choice.

But the difference is that for us, following God and accepting his power is based on faith – faith assumes some uncertainty about his authenticity, but nevertheless we accept God and his power anyway. But it’s because of that uncertainty about his authenticity, that people not only reject God, but apparently get away with it. It seems however that Satan, unlike us, didn’t live in this uncertainty–and if he knew, beyond a doubt, that God was all-powerful, why would he rebel?

 

[Inquiringperson]

When did Lucifer get kicked out of heaven? Before or after the creation of humans?

 

[Bezant]

The element of free will which God holds in high esteem.

It seems that character takes precedence over intelligence.

My question is, why did God give the angels free will as well, if he knew free will would also cause a problem for mankind?

 

[meltzerboy]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

Intelligence does not always translate into wisdom, and even less into morality, at least for humans. That said, according to Judaism, Lucifer did not rebel against G-d; rather, he takes his orders from G-d and does the “dirty work” of tempter and accuser.

 

[meltzerboy]

My question is, why did God give the angels free will as well, if he knew free will would also cause a problem for mankind?

Judaism does not believe the angels have free will; they are programmed to serve G-d in specific ways. In this sense, Man is superior to even the holiest of angels since he has been given free will and can serve G-d in a multitude of ways.

 

[theblindlead]

My question is, why did God give the angels free will as well, if he knew free will would also cause a problem for mankind?

a quote from C.S. Lewis’s book The Case for Christianity “God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong, but I can’t. If a thing is free to be good it’s also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having. A world of automata -of creatures that worked like machines- would hardly be worth creating. The happiness which God designs for His higher creatures is the happiness of being freely, voluntarily united to Him and to each other in an ecstasy of love and delight compared with which the most rapturous love between a man and a woman on this earth is mere milk and water. And for that they’ve got to be free. Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently, He thought it worth the risk. (…) If God thinks this state of war in the universe a price worth paying for free will -that is, for making a real world in which creatures can do real good or harm and something of real importance can happen, instead of a toy world which only moves when He pulls the strings- then we may take it (that) it is worth paying.”

 

[theblindlead]

Intelligence does not always translate into wisdom, and even less into morality, at least for humans. That said, according to Judaism, Lucifer did not rebel against G-d; rather, he takes his orders from G-d and does the “dirty work” of tempter and accuser.

“Judaism does not believe the angels have free will; they are programmed to serve G-d in specific ways. In this sense, Man is superior to even the holiest of angels since he has been given free will and can serve G-d in a multitude of ways.”

this is extremely theologically and philosophically incorrect. if this was true the term omnibenelovent would no longer be able to be applied to God. God would be implicitly attempting to make humans do wrong which seems to contradict what most would hold God to be. the angels must have free will or God is not all good (that or you believe that theology does not need to be consistent with philosophy, which is possible but there are not many that hold this view.)

 

[theblindlead]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

no one knows for sure what happened we only have speculation. what normal scholars/theologians/philosophers state is that angels being purely intellectual beings were given the choice to follow or not follow God. it is normally said that the angels had complete knowledge if the situation or a perfect intellect, so they knew all the consequences of there actions. the angles that followed the devil were normally said to have left over the sin of hubris or excessive pride.

the whole “no chance of success” is very relative because we have no idea if the fallen angels actually suffer as the daemons of hell and the scourge of the earth. for all we know the difference between the fallen angels and angels is the difference between a crack dealer and a very devout church goer. they both get great pleasure from how they live there lives, but most would say that the person who goes to church and is happy that way is living a more fulfilling life.

but obviously all of this is just speculation. hope this helps

 

[meltzerboy]

this is extremely theologically and philosophically incorrect. if this was true the term omnibenelovent would no longer be able to be applied to God. God would be implicitly attempting to make humans do wrong which seems to contradict what most would hold God to be. the angels must have free will or God is not all good (that or you believe that theology does not need to be consistent with philosophy, which is possible but there are not many that hold this view.)

Why is what I said about Lucifer any more inconsistent than G-d’s having given Man free will? Lucifer, like the other angels, serves G-d in his own particular functions. He wishes Man to resist his temptations, just as G-d does. In the Hebrew Bible, people are often put to the test of their faith, as Job and Abraham, for example. Also, why must the angels have free will for G-d to be good? G-d gave them other attributes which Man does not have. This view regarding Lucifer is different from that of Christianity and Islam, but why is it “extremely…philosophically incorrect”?

 

[pigzig]

I think the snake was Lucifer and he fell alongside Adam and Eve and the rebellion story is made up. Just throwing that idea out there.

 

[sw85]

First post on Catholic Answers, so be patient please . Reading up on the fall of Lucifer (the story of redemption is the source of most of my information), i cannot understand why an angel as intelligent as Lucifer would ever rebel against god. If Lucifer believes in god and god is all knowing and all powerful, Lucifer would have known that there is NO chance of success by challenging him, but for some reason he still did… Can someone explain this to me?

I’ve sometimes wondered about this myself. My only guess is that he knows his rebellion is doomed to failure but doesn’t care. In his pride he is determined to make the order of being a hell for as many people as possible.

The nearest analogy I can think of is the many (many) atheists who say they don’t care if God exists, because even if He does exist he is evil (so they say) and so they will not serve Him. Of course their understanding of evil is impaired; so, too, must be the Devil’s. And it is an impairment born, like every sin, of pride.

 

[theblindlead]

Why is what I said about Lucifer any more inconsistent than G-d’s having given Man free will? Lucifer, like the other angels, serves G-d in his own particular functions. He wishes Man to resist his temptations, just as G-d does. In the Hebrew Bible, people are often put to the test of their faith, as Job and Abraham, for example. Also, why must the angels have free will for G-d to be good? G-d gave them other attributes which Man does not have. This view regarding Lucifer is different from that of Christianity and Islam, but why is it “extremely…philosophically incorrect”?

i guess i was predicating that statement upon Satan being an infinitely evil being. I don’t know what the Jewish faith teaches about Lucifer being evil, but in Catholicism Lucifer is evil. therefore we could say that God controls what the daemons do and since the daemons only do bad things God (by extension) bring about evil. which is inconsistent with the nature of God. which is what i was trying to get at, God cannot bring about evil and be omnibenelovent at the same time

 

[Moro_Rock]

My question is, why did God give the angels free will as well, if he knew free will would also cause a problem for mankind?

It seems like all had to undergo a test to be worthy to live in the presence of God forever . I believe it was a test of love .