Fallen Angels attacking us

[ricmat]

Then you’re giving Satan entirely too much credit. He is not ‘un-God’ – not a dualist embodiment of evil like Ahriman. He is a created being, an eternally prodigal child of God.

Is loving someone embracing his or her nature, really? There’s a lot of back and forth here about peoples’ children who are getting married outside the Church or to people of the same sex or whatever. One thing that is usually never questioned is whether or not the parent should love the child, no matter how much they may disobey what the parent thinks is right and good. If God is an all-loving Father as Christians claim, would he not still love Satan, even though the latter has chosen to place himself out of reach?

I’ll ask you the same question I asked another poster: if you are not called to love Satan, then are you called to hate him? Are you called to hate the souls in hell? How far up are you willing to go? To the point of hating people still on this earth you think are going to hell? If you start hating one entity, where do you stop?

Mirdath - sometimes I get the impression that you are mincing words in a desperate attempt not to understand what I’m saying
Now if you claim that I didn’t explain it well, OK. I’ll try again.

I made no claim that Satan was equal to God, but that his limited nature is a negative subset of God’s infinite nature. Being the opposite does not imply equality.

Of course, parents are called to love their children. Love the child, and if appropriate, hate their sin. We love the child, even sinning ones, because they are God’s children as well. As I already said, sinful humans still have the capability to change their nature to good (where good is defined as a characteristic of God). By definition, the devil has no such capability for change - once his decision was made, it was final, as it is for souls in hell. Not so with humans on earth or in purgatory.

With humans we can hate the sin and love the sinner because the 2 are not immutably bound together. It is not possible to love Satan but hate his sins because Satan IS the sins. As God is I AM, so Satan is I AM NOT.

I don’t hate anyone on this earth. But I hate their sins. How about you?

 

[blessedstar]

newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

This will give you insight into how we should view evil.

May I humbly recommend that people who are interested bookmark the Newadvent Catholic Encyclopedia and also the Catholic Catechism where most of these matters are clearly explained and regularly read them as part of their spiritual reading.

CCC may be found here:vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[The_Catholic]

Well this really got turned into something else lol.

 

[The_Catholic]

The two angels you mention by name are not listed in scripture or Catholic writing. THey seem to pop up quite a bit in Neo paganism though…

I suggest you tread lightly if you dare to tead at all.

I know. I’ll be careful. Those two names I think appear in Jewish writtings after they were taken over by Babylon. The books are not part of the Hebrew Bible though. Perhaps they were borrowed from Babylon, or perhaps there’s truth to them. I don’t know. Just find it interesting.

By “tread” are you warning me to be careful from not falling away?

 

[The_Catholic]

Does it really matter what they look like?

Ummm, no. I was only making conversation. Though it does bother me how silly unbelievers picture Lucifer.

 

[Mirdath]

Mirdath - sometimes I get the impression that you are mincing words in a desperate attempt not to understand what I’m saying
Now if you claim that I didn’t explain it well, OK. I’ll try again.

No, I understand what you’re saying, I just disagree with it! I think also it’s a faulty interpretation of the teachings of your faith to claim that you are not supposed to love in any case, specific or general.

I made no claim that Satan was equal to God, but that his limited nature is a negative subset of God’s infinite nature. Being the opposite does not imply equality.

Apologies – I got that impression from your statement that they are exact opposites.

Of course, parents are called to love their children. Love the child, and if appropriate, hate their sin. We love the child, even sinning ones, because they are God’s children as well. As I already said, sinful humans still have the capability to change their nature to good (where good is defined as a characteristic of God). By definition, the devil has no such capability for change - once his decision was made, it was final, as it is for souls in hell. Not so with humans on earth or in purgatory.

Does the capacity of the devil to change his ways affect how you should love? I don’t remember any such caveats in Jesus’ teachings.

With humans we can hate the sin and love the sinner because the 2 are not immutably bound together. It is not possible to love Satan but hate his sins because Satan IS the sins. As God is I AM, so Satan is I AM NOT.

Saying it is impossible to love someone sets a dangerous precedent. From there, of course, you are free to hate any of the damned – and from there, it’s a hop, skip, and a jump to hating living people you think are hellbound, as not enough bible-thumpers realize. Jesus himself did not say anyone was unlovable – who are you to step into his shoes and proclaim ‘love this one, can’t love that one’?

Sure, it’s hard to love the personification of evil. But if someone told you it’d be easy to be Catholic, he or she lied. You are taught ‘love your enemy’, not ‘love your enemy, oh, unless he’s in hell’. I know Catholicism can get bound up in petty little legalistic tizzies, but come on, that teaching is about as straightforward as you can get.

I don’t hate anyone on this earth. But I hate their sins. How about you?

I try my best not to hate, period. I can work up sadness, disgust, even loathing – but hatred is another thing entirely.

 

[blessedstar]

No, I understand what you’re saying, I just disagree with it! I think also it’s a faulty interpretation of the teachings of your faith to claim that you are not supposed to love in any case, specific or general.

Apologies – I got that impression from your statement that they are exact opposites.

Does the capacity of the devil to change his ways affect how you should love? I don’t remember any such caveats in Jesus’ teachings.

Saying it is impossible to love someone sets a dangerous precedent. From there, of course, you are free to hate any of the damned – and from there, it’s a hop, skip, and a jump to hating living people you think are hellbound, as not enough bible-thumpers realize. Jesus himself did not say anyone was unlovable – who are you to step into his shoes and proclaim ‘love this one, can’t love that one’?

Sure, it’s hard to love the personification of evil. But if someone told you it’d be easy to be Catholic, he or she lied. You are taught ‘love your enemy’, not ‘love your enemy, oh, unless he’s in hell’. I know Catholicism can get bound up in petty little legalistic tizzies, but come on, that teaching is about as straightforward as you can get.

I try my best not to hate, period. I can work up sadness, disgust, even loathing – but hatred is another thing entirely.

It is not Catholic teaching to love satan. It is Catholic teaching to love God and your neighbour as yourself.

It is Catholic teaching to love your brother and sister whatever evil they may do because they are made good in the image and likeness of Christ Jesus and always have the opportunity to be good, do good and to love by God’s grace.

Satan has no possibility to be good and do good.

The opposite of to love is to not love. I don’t know if hate should come into it, I think indifference is more apt. He is not worthy of our love and by his own volition gave up the love of God for eternity.

God is love and there is no love in satan and so he is totally devoid of God. We are to not love satan, there is nothing of God to love in him.

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[ricmat]

1. Does the capacity of the devil to change his ways affect how you should love? I don’t remember any such caveats in Jesus’ teachings.
2. Saying it is impossible to love someone sets a dangerous precedent. From there, of course, you are free to hate any of the damned – and from there, it’s a hop, skip, and a jump to hating living people you think are hellbound, as not enough bible-thumpers realize. Jesus himself did not say anyone was unlovable – who are you to step into his shoes and proclaim ‘love this one, can’t love that one’?
3. Sure, it’s hard to love the personification of evil. But if someone told you it’d be easy to be Catholic, he or she lied. You are taught ‘love your enemy’, not ‘love your enemy, oh, unless he’s in hell’. I know Catholicism can get bound up in petty little legalistic tizzies, but come on, that teaching is about as straightforward as you can get.

I try my best not to hate, period. I can work up sadness, disgust, even loathing – but hatred is another thing entirely.

1. Tell me, what teachings of Jesus tell us to love evil? Or Satan? I don’t recall those particular verses…
2. Pure speculation. I have no desire to speculate about who is hell bound. You seem to be saying that we should love evil, because if we don’t then we can’t love good. There is a difference.
3. Catholic teaching is hard sometimes, but what you said Catholic teaching is, it is not. Again, Jesus was obviously talking about humans, not Satan and the fallen angels in “love your enemy.” C’mon Mirdath. Get serious.

It just occurred to me that you see all these CAF discussions as some kind of legalistic debate. Or perhaps a case of “gotcha” like the news networks play with politicians. Not looking for the truth, but for a mis-used word or not fully formed thought to pounce on. Or a phrase that can be willfully misinterpreted. As though that would change reality.

I said this in another thread (to a different poster, I believe) - a good debater assigned the position of proving that the world is flat can out debate a poor debater assigned the position of proving that the world is round. But that doesn’t actually change reality. It doesn’t change the truth. Mirdath has proved the world is flat in these “debates”, so it must be true. Mirdath can now live in a flat world in peace with himself.

If you want to exchange or explore ideas, great. But that’s different than “winning” the debates and find gotchas. Or leading the discussions down rabbit holes of purposeful misunderstanding. But God is still there Mirdath. Many of us are not good apologists. We don’t debate well. But the truth remains.

OK - rant off. Hey Mirdath. I’ll have a beer in your honor on Sunday. Go Steelers.

 

[blessedstar]

I said this in another thread (to a different poster, I believe) - a good debater assigned the position of proving that the world is flat can out debate a poor debater assigned the position of proving that the world is round. But that doesn’t actually change reality. It doesn’t change the truth. Mirdath has proved the world is flat in these “debates”, so it must be true. Mirdath can now live in a flat world in peace with himself.

.

The world is not flat or round; it is to be God shaped!

In the Living Prayer of my life

 

[ricmat]

The world is not flat or round; it is to be God shaped!

In the Living Prayer of my life

Good point!

All of creation is held together in Christ. And the universe itself evolves into a new creation in Christ. I hope that Mirdath and I am there to see it. On the other hand, he’s probably not a Steelers fan…

 

[Mirdath]

1. Tell me, what teachings of Jesus tell us to love evil? Or Satan? I don’t recall those particular verses…

You are to love even those who do evil by you, are you not? Matthew 5:43-45, by the way. He doesn’t say it applies to Satan, but he doesn’t say otherwise either – and faced with the moral philosophy and reported actions of Jesus, I am inclined to err on the side of generosity.

1. Pure speculation. I have no desire to speculate about who is hell bound. You seem to be saying that we should love evil, because if we don’t then we can’t love good. There is a difference.

I am not saying ‘love evil’; I am saying, ‘love those who do evil’.

1. Catholic teaching is hard sometimes, but what you said Catholic teaching is, it is not. Again, Jesus was obviously talking about humans, not Satan and the fallen angels in “love your enemy.” C’mon Mirdath. Get serious.

It is not obvious from my point of view. If he only meant humans, why didn’t he say so? Did he mean you shouldn’t love animals, the creatures given to Adam to be steward over? One would suppose that love of creatures is implicit. Why would that be the end of it.

Love your enemy. Why does that stop at The Enemy? What do you have to lose by showing respect, compassion, and pity for the souls in hell?

It just occurred to me that you see all these CAF discussions as some kind of legalistic debate. Or perhaps a case of “gotcha” like the news networks play with politicians. Not looking for the truth, but for a mis-used word or not fully formed thought to pounce on. Or a phrase that can be willfully misinterpreted. As though that would change reality.

I’m not out to get you. Sometimes I can’t resist when you collectively present an exceptionally easy target, but I’m not on a mission or anything like that

Love, we are told, is a virtue. More love, then, is better than less – so why, since you are told to love, should you ever stop? What I’m hearing in this thread runs totally contrary to what I understand is the spirit of Christianity. Indifference and hatred are not Christian values; how could any Christian ever apply them, if not in grave error?

OK - rant off. Hey Mirdath. I’ll have a beer in your honor on Sunday. Go Steelers.

I don’t follow football, but enjoy – and make it a good beer!

.o)o)o
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[EB4304]

I’m not quite sure about hating Satan, but it’s actually futile to love him. The Christian notion of love (the Greek agape) means many beautiful things relating to self-sacrifice, but its simplest definition is wishing the good of the other, not liking him or having loving feelings for him.

With that being said, it isn’t possible to love Satan if he is damned forever (damned by his own will, mind you). If I wish all the good in the world for him, it will not matter; he will never repent, never turn back to God. And we are to have no pity on that, for Satan made his eternal choice willingly and continues to live it without remorse.

Also, if you read Saint Paul and Revelation, you get the very distinct impression that human enemies must be loved because they still have time to repent; no one prays for the souls in Hell. Paul says that our true enemies are not people, but “principalities and powers” - demonic spiritual forces. There is clearly a very different attitude between human sinners and fallen angels. Even look at the Gospels - Jesus calls for the repentance of men - even the hypocritical Pharisees - but he never does so for demons. He exorcises them or drowns them in swine; that’s not your typical ‘gentle Jesus’ either.

But I am very sympathetic to your point; it’s hard to imagine divine “hatred.” But I would be very careful with ‘loving’ Satan - he would love nothing more than for a mortal man to feel some semblance of pity which he would twist and pervert just like he does with everything else.

 

[Mirdath]

Mirdath’s right; it’s actually futile to love Satan.

Uh, I think you mean the other guys are right

With that being said, it isn’t possible to love Satan if he is damned forever (damned by his own will, mind you). If I wish all the good in the world for him, it will not matter; he will never repent, never turn back to God. And we are to have no pity on that, for Satan made his eternal choice willingly and continues to live it without remorse.

It may not matter to Satan, but why should your love not matter to you and to God? Is love ever truly wasted on someone? Does not God see it and think it good?

Your love for the irredeemable may not have any effect on them, but if you guys are right about God and Love, it’s going to matter to you. So love them, pity them – if only for the brownie points!

 

[EB4304]

Again, it feels strange to me to talk with someone about whether or not we love too much! It’s a wonderful sign.

Now, I’m fairly certain that if you look into the Doctors of the Church and the saints, you will find that they have no pity for Satan. But that’s not an argument; that’s just an invitation to see what men and women (far holier and more loving than us) had to say about the true nature of love.

But ricmat was right about the Sermon on the Mount being told about human neighbors; the entire context of the sermon is in regard to human relations - just from a literary perspective, it would be a stretch to extrapolate love of demons from it.

I don’t think God pities the damned, really. That would mean that evil could triumph over Good - that hell will forever poison the experience of Heaven. In fact, when Jesus talks about judgment, he tells the damned “I never knew you, depart from me.” It’s almost as if the eternal mind is capable of unknowing the damned soul (or angel). Quite terrifying, really.

But I’ll have to think on your point about loving - even if futile - for the sake of your own soul. I’m not sure I agree with it, but I’ll let it steep for a little while.

Again, thanks for all your comments on love!

 

[kitkatty]

But that applies to those who might be turned away from evil by our love and prayers for them. That does not apply to Satan. He is damned forever with no hope of forgiveness and redemption. We are NOT called to love Satan.

No Satan is evil and loving Satan would be loving evil, unlike human beings where we can hate the sin/evil but love the sinner.

 

[I_Believe]

From what I read (can’t recall what book–I read many) Lucifer fell because of PRIDE.

In Heaven God shared all of his future creation with all the entities in Heaven. God introduced His Son as the Second Person in the Trinity as a man. All of Heaven was prompted to worship the Son/Man…except Lucifer and his followers. They refused because as angels they felt superior to man and refused.

It’s a little murky but it was something on that vein.

Exactly. Lucifer is too proud to accept God as his superior. He challenged God. Bad call.

 

[I_Believe]

‘But I say to you, love your enemies, and **pray ** for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust.’ (Matthew 5:44-45)

** Who better to practice this rule of your faith on than on the supreme Adversary? ** Even Jesus was not hateful toward Satan.

Well, the key word in that passage is pray. What would we pray for in regard to Satan, other than the strengthening of our Faith as to resist his temptation ? Eternal damnation simply isn’t negotiable. Thus the phrase “one way ticket to hell”

That passage of scripture instructs us to pray for the salvation of all, but leave the judging to God imo.

 

[The_Catholic]

I’m not quite sure about hating Satan, but it’s actually futile to love him. The Christian notion of love (the Greek agape) means many beautiful things relating to self-sacrifice, but its simplest definition is wishing the good of the other, not liking him or having loving feelings for him.

With that being said, it isn’t possible to love Satan if he is damned forever (damned by his own will, mind you). If I wish all the good in the world for him, it will not matter; he will never repent, never turn back to God. And we are to have no pity on that, for Satan made his eternal choice willingly and continues to live it without remorse.

Also, if you read Saint Paul and Revelation, you get the very distinct impression that human enemies must be loved because they still have time to repent; no one prays for the souls in Hell. Paul says that our true enemies are not people, but “principalities and powers” - demonic spiritual forces. There is clearly a very different attitude between human sinners and fallen angels. Even look at the Gospels - Jesus calls for the repentance of men - even the hypocritical Pharisees - but he never does so for demons. He exorcises them or drowns them in swine; that’s not your typical ‘gentle Jesus’ either.

But I am very sympathetic to your point; it’s hard to imagine divine “hatred.” But I would be very careful with ‘loving’ Satan - he would love nothing more than for a mortal man to feel some semblance of pity which he would twist and pervert just like he does with everything else.

Yeah, you make a god point. Thank you.

I also just wanted to say that for me it’s not hard to imagine God hates. He does, but it is a JUST hate, not selfish hate. His anger, wrath, and hate are all Just. And His love conquers all.

 

[ricmat]

I’m not out to get you. Sometimes I can’t resist when you collectively present an exceptionally easy target, but I’m not on a mission or anything like that

I didn’t say you were out to get me particularly.

But your statement above supports my point. “easy TARGET”.

You are not looking for insights, truth, or discussions. Your crosshairs are in constant motion, seeking “targets.” Yeah, man, I blew that one out of the water!!! Bring em on!!

And I believe that you are on a mission even if you don’t know it. Your mission is to protect Mirdath against the possibility of the existence of God. Because if the defense is breached - well, Mirdath would have to change his life. And like most people, Mirdath wants to do what Mirdath wants to do…yeah, I know I’ve said that before.

I do like you Mirdath, no kidding. Funny you should say that we theists should pity the souls in hell, but you get upset when there’s any hint that we pity atheists (who actually have it within their power to avoid hell). Funny bunch you are.

 

[Mirdath]

Well, the key word in that passage is pray. What would we pray for in regard to Satan, other than the strengthening of our Faith as to resist his temptation ? Eternal damnation simply isn’t negotiable. Thus the phrase “one way ticket to hell”

That passage of scripture instructs us to pray for the salvation of all, but leave the judging to God imo.

Keep on reading. Love, and pray – for your sake, not necessarily the other’s.

ricmat:

And I believe that you are on a mission even if you don’t know it. Your mission is to protect Mirdath against the possibility of the existence of God. Because if the defense is breached - well, Mirdath would have to change his life. And like most people, Mirdath wants to do what Mirdath wants to do…yeah, I know I’ve said that before.

And I’ve said before that I’m agnostic and open to the possibility – however, I just need a lot of convincing. Whether or not I’d have to ‘change my life’ depends on whether you’re right about God or someone else is, a call I’m not going to make when I think Azathoth at least as likely a Supreme Being as YHWH.

I do like you Mirdath, no kidding. Funny you should say that we theists should pity the souls in hell, but you get upset when there’s any hint that we pity atheists (who actually have it within their power to avoid hell). Funny bunch you are.

Pity the way many theists claim to pity the sinners and the fallen away is nothing more than a self-righteous statement ‘I’m better than you, more moral than you, closer to God than you, you hellbound idjit’. The souls in hell, if there are any, really do have something to be pitied for, instead of just not acting like you think they should.

And since I don’t believe in a hell, I don’t believe there are any damned souls – so what’s it to me if you pity the nonexistent as well as or instead of the irredeemable?