Fallen Angels

[clfire]

I hope I’m in the right forum this time…guess I was posting in the blog all the while before??? Anyway, I’ll give it a try and see what happens.

Subject is Fallen Angels…I’ll re-post my questions Monday…

 

[patrick457]

I hope I’m in the right forum this time…guess I was posting in the blog all the while before??? Anyway, I’ll give it a try and see what happens.

Subject is Fallen Angels…I’ll re-post my questions Monday…

I think so. Can you post the ones you could think of right now?

 

[clfire]

Okay, here’s one…from “Suma Theol.” page 2933

Re: Whether at the Coming Judgment the Angels Will Be Judged?

“…the judgment of retribution…(as to merits)…good or evil…this will be made in the judgment to come, the good angels will have an increased joy in the of those whom they have prompted to deeds of merit, while the wicked will have an increase of torment through the manifold downfall of those whom they have incited to evil deeds.”

“…consequentjy the judgment will not regard the angels directly neither as judging nor as judged, but only men; but it will regard the angels indirectly somewhat, in so far as they were concerned in men’s deeds.”

MY QUESTION: Do you think there are “levels” of how “evil” each Fallen Angel is? In that, do you think there might be fallen angels that have a desire to NOT lure humans into serious sins so that their degree of torture after the Last Judgment will not be as great as those who DID lure humans into serious sin??

 

[Ion]

Okay, here’s one…from “Suma Theol.” page 2933

Re: Whether at the Coming Judgment the Angels Will Be Judged?

“…the judgment of retribution…(as to merits)…good or evil…this will be made in the judgment to come, the good angels will have an increased joy in the of those whom they have prompted to deeds of merit, while the wicked will have an increase of torment through the manifold downfall of those whom they have incited to evil deeds.”

“…consequentjy the judgment will not regard the angels directly neither as judging nor as judged, but only men; but it will regard the angels indirectly somewhat, in so far as they were concerned in men’s deeds.”

MY QUESTION: Do you think there are “levels” of how “evil” each Fallen Angel is? In that, do you think there might be fallen angels that have a desire to NOT lure humans into serious sins so that their degree of torture after the Last Judgment will not be as great as those who DID lure humans into serious sin??

They can’t bless Jesus because they do not have such desire, not because of some speaking inability…

 

[COPLAND_3]

Okay, here’s one…from “Suma Theol.” page 2933

Re: Whether at the Coming Judgment the Angels Will Be Judged?

“…the judgment of retribution…(as to merits)…good or evil…this will be made in the judgment to come, the good angels will have an increased joy in the of those whom they have prompted to deeds of merit, while the wicked will have an increase of torment through the manifold downfall of those whom they have incited to evil deeds.”

“…consequentjy the judgment will not regard the angels directly neither as judging nor as judged, but only men; but it will regard the angels indirectly somewhat, in so far as they were concerned in men’s deeds.”

MY QUESTION: Do you think there are “levels” of how “evil” each Fallen Angel is? In that, do you think there might be fallen angels that have a desire to NOT lure humans into serious sins so that their degree of torture after the Last Judgment will not be as great as those who DID lure humans into serious sin??

Good question! I do believe that, in the sense of St. Thomas Aquinas, the greater joy that the good angels will experience will be that evil will be totally eliminated and their (good angels) efforts to combat evil will no longer be needed and their service will be full time worship of God and no more battles with the dark side. As for the bad angels and their degree of torture being greater, that will probably consist in the fact that they will be once and for all in the place of torture in the Lake of Fire. As of now, they are condemned to Hell and have lost their heavenly rank, but they are permitted to exercise evil.

Just to add a little more Aquinas thought to this, as for humans, the good who are in Heaven will have greater joy after the Judgment because they will receive their glorified bodies. The bad will experience greater torture because their souls will be reunited with their bodies and they will suffer body and soul.

 

[cornbread_r2]

Good question! I do believe that, in the sense of St. Thomas Aquinas, the greater joy that the good angels will experience will be that evil will be totally eliminated and their (good angels) efforts to combat evil will no longer be needed and their service will be full time worship of God and no more battles with the dark side. As for the bad angels and their degree of torture being greater, that will probably consist in the fact that they will be once and for all in the place of torture in the Lake of Fire. As of now, they are condemned to Hell and have lost their heavenly rank, but they are permitted to exercise evil.

Just to add a little more Aquinas thought to this, as for humans, the good who are in Heaven will have greater joy after the Judgment because they will receive their glorified bodies. The bad will experience greater torture because their souls will be reunited with their bodies and they will suffer body and soul.

Which should call into question the notions that Hell is a state and not a place and that the residents somehow torture themselves…

 

[COPLAND_3]

Which should call into question the notions that Hell is a state and not a place and that the residents somehow torture themselves…

Well, I do believe that its both a place and a state of being. When a person is condemned to prison for life, even when he’s not actually there in the facility he still has the dread of a prisoner because he will never live like a free man.

 

[clfire]

Thank you all for your comments…but I still think Thomas Aquinas was saying that at the Last Judgment, fallen angels will suffer the degree of torture according to what effort they did to tempt humans to do grevious sins…that the fallen angels who sucessfully tempted humans to murder and rape, etc woud have greater torture than those who only tempted humans to such things as drunkenness or stuff like that??? It has nothing to do with trying to please God…it has to do with their own personal effort to avoid the greater tortures some might receive???

 

[clfire]

So…are fallen angels the “demons” of hell…or are there other demon creatures there???

 

[maranatha1119]

What I’m going to say may sound strange to those who have been Christians all their lives. For roughly 15years, I practiced various forms of magic, starting with Wicca, then going on to Thelemic Magic, and finally to Setian Magic. In all of these “religions”, there is a practice called evocation, where one summons a demonic entity, traps it in a black mirror, and communicates with it. I have done this many times, and it is quite startling at first. There is also a higher practice called invocation, where one opens him/herself up and lets one of these demons possess them. I did this for many years. I always invoked the Egyptian God Set, who is none other than Satan.

I was part of an organization that followed “Set”, and foolishly believed everything he said. He claimed that the Christian God was nothing more than a fairy tale, and that HE was the Creator of the Universe. He taught an elaborate cosmology and philosophy. It wasn’t until Jesus rescued me that I realized that “Set” is the Father of Lies (I had never read the Bible before, and did not know this). In my humble opinion, the Devil and his demons roam the earth, creating as much havoc and misery as they can. None of them are good, or they would still be Holy Angels. Their only purpose is to drag as many unsuspecting people to Hell with them as they can. I believe that they will all be judged for this abominable behavior, just as the Bible says.

I know that a number of modern Christians don’t believe in the literal existence of demons, but I assure you, they are VERY real. We should always be on guard, and pray for deliverance from their subtle influences on us.

 

[clfire]

I believe there are “good” angels and…“fallen angels”…what I’d like to know if TRULY the fallen angels are the “demons” spoken of in the Bible…or if there are other evil creatures in hell that are also considered demons?? and if so, where did they come from??

We always see Satan (Lucifer) pictured with horns, goat feet, red…etc and “devils” Demons portrayed as ugly creatures…but since fallen angels retain their former look…we need to stop portraying them as “ugly” and realize the true “look” of the fallen angel (demon) that tempts us relentlessly???

 

[brb3]

What I’m going to say may sound strange to those who have been Christians all their lives. For roughly 15years, I practiced various forms of magic, starting with Wicca, then going on to Thelemic Magic, and finally to Setian Magic. In all of these “religions”, there is a practice called evocation, where one summons a demonic entity, traps it in a black mirror, and communicates with it. I have done this many times, and it is quite startling at first. There is also a higher practice called invocation, where one opens him/herself up and lets one of these demons possess them. I did this for many years. I always invoked the Egyptian God Set, who is none other than Satan.

I was part of an organization that followed “Set”, and foolishly believed everything he said. He claimed that the Christian God was nothing more than a fairy tale, and that HE was the Creator of the Universe. He taught an elaborate cosmology and philosophy. It wasn’t until Jesus rescued me that I realized that “Set” is the Father of Lies (I had never read the Bible before, and did not know this). In my humble opinion, the Devil and his demons roam the earth, creating as much havoc and misery as they can. None of them are good, or they would still be Holy Angels. Their only purpose is to drag as many unsuspecting people to Hell with them as they can. I believe that they will all be judged for this abominable behavior, just as the Bible says.

I know that a number of modern Christians don’t believe in the literal existence of demons, but I assure you, they are VERY real. We should always be on guard, and pray for deliverance from their subtle influences on us.

Yes, very real…Satan used to tempt me that he could give me my cake in life, and then I could decide for myself who was the better protector …he or Jesus. Also, Satan made Mortal sinning so delicious…so addicting, .

…he really does have may treats to offer & tempt us with. But, we truly can …via free will, chose God again & fully recover.

 

[bogeydogg]

I believe there are “good” angels and…“fallen angels”…what I’d like to know if TRULY the fallen angels are the “demons” spoken of in the Bible…or if there are other evil creatures in hell that are also considered demons?? and if so, where did they come from??

We always see Satan (Lucifer) pictured with horns, goat feet, red…etc and “devils” Demons portrayed as ugly creatures…but since fallen angels retain their former look…we need to stop portraying them as “ugly” and realize the true “look” of the fallen angel (demon) that tempts us relentlessly???

Well recall that James declares that a man is tempted in his mind first and then is carried away by his own sinful desire. So to that end of course we may be tempted by the demons, but ultimately the seat of our sinfulness is our own will. That is, no one can really say, “The Devil made me do it.”

However of course the demons are real, and are the fallen angels. Remember Jesus says that Hell is a place prepared the Devil and his angels. Therefore I believe that Hell is real, it is a place, and that all of the demons are those who fell with Satan when he fell.

Concerning Aquinas, I do not believe in a gradation of Hell because ultimate it is only one sin that puts any man in Hell, the sin of unbelief which is rebellion against God. The demons and Satan rebelled against God and so were judged for their rebellion. The judgement also falls on men who rebell by refusing to repent of their sins.

However Augustine tracked this question of demonic influence along the same line as James. He taught that we sin because our affections, our wills, are bent inward toward ourselves and so our desire is to sin and consume selfishly. The one who refuses to repent does so because in his heart he loves himself and his sin more than God. So because of this selfish nature he becomes open to the temptations of the Devil and his angels, but the cause is his own sinful desire.

When Christ claims us (baptism) we are given a new nature that battles against this sinful desire and turns our affections away from ourselves and toward God and our neighbor. However because we still have our sinful desires we battle within, but that battle is far different than the person who has rejected God opening himself to whiles of Satan.

That however is why mortal sin is so terribly dangerous. By sinning willfully we reject the mercy of God and re-open ourselves to the temptations that ensnare. Thus a person can make shipwreck of his faith and still go to Hell in spite of his baptism.

Therefore Christ commands us to keep His commandments, and to always repent of his sins believing in Christ and trusting in his mercy given us by Word and Sacrament.

God Bless

 

[clfire]

Thanks for replies so far,but no one has said whether all “demons” are Fallen angels" OR are there also other creatures besides fallen angels that are tempters like the fallen angels???

Also…still wondering if Bible or any other saint had same idea as Aquinas that the amount of torture a fallen angel would receive at LAST JUDGMENT depended on the amount of evil it personally divested upon humans…???

Hope I hear more on these two ongoing questions

 

[brb3]

Thanks for replies so far,but no one has said whether all “demons” are Fallen angels" OR are there also other creatures besides fallen angels that are tempters like the fallen angels???

Also…still wondering if Bible or any other saint had same idea as Aquinas that the amount of torture a fallen angel would receive at LAST JUDGMENT depended on the amount of evil it personally divested upon humans…???

Hope I hear more on these two ongoing questions

Yes …all are fallen angels. No ghosts of dead humans allowed !!

But, we have guardian angels too …so its a battle of good vs evil.

 

[clfire]

If all “demons” are fallen angels…where did the word “demon” come from…I know the word appears in Bible a lot…but would like to know why we call fallen angels that as it gives us a Hollywood picture to our minds than if we called them fallen angels…which are unsanctified angels (regardless that they took evil path)…fallen angels LOOK like angels unglorifird but according to Aquinas STLL have same basic make up?

Also wondering if there is a book out by a theologan whose written book about science facts vs theology? Hope I don’t get kicked off this thread for asking this question?

 

[brb3]

If all “demons” are fallen angels…where did the word “demon” come from…I know the word appears in Bible a lot…but would like to know why we call fallen angels that as it gives us a Hollywood picture to our minds than if we called them fallen angels…which are unsanctified angels (regardless that they took evil path)…fallen angels LOOK like angels unglorifird but according to Aquinas STLL have same basic make up?

Also wondering if there is a book out by a theologan whose written book about science facts vs theology? Hope I don’t get kicked off this thread for asking this question?

Partially answered in our CCC # 414…also 391-395.