Fallen Away Catholics who live together or remarried invalidly?

[dfp42]

I know people who went down this route and still claim the name Catholic. Even some who live with their partners (objectively wrong) and go to mass receiving the Eucharist. I know we are not to judge anyone because we really don’t know the state of their souls. However, it seems that this ignorance is a free pass for them to do what they want to do because “no one” is allowed to judge them. Either they recongize this as a sin and are struggling to do right or they down right don’t care because they want to be happy with their partner.

My question though is what needs to be done with these people who want to be Catholic and remain in the Church? Take for example two fallen away Catholics who never got an annulment from their first marriage and get remarried by a JP. Now say down the line 15 years later they want to get right with God. They really love one another and want to come into communion with the Church. If an annulment is not granted are they required to separate or could they just live together making a commitment to God not to have sex? Most people I know probably wouldn’t separate if required because the thought of living alone on this earth is too much and now they are already in the mix of years of “love” with the other partner. Does it really come down to a matter of people ultimately choosing God or their partners in the end?

 

[1ke]

I know people who went down this route and still claim the name Catholic.

They are Catholic.

Even some who live with their partners (objectively wrong) and go to mass receiving the Eucharist. I know we are not to judge anyone because we really don’t know the state of their souls. However, it seems that this ignorance is a free pass for them to do what they want to do because “no one” is allowed to judge them.

I think you misunderstand judging. If they are committing an objectively grave act, we are called to fraternal correction.

My question though is what needs to be done with these people who want to be Catholic and remain in the Church?

The priest should continue to pastor them and help them move towards reconciliation with the Church.

Does it really come down to a matter of people ultimately choosing God or their partners in the end?

Yes. It always come down to that-- no matter what our particular sin is-- do we choose God or not?

 

[dfp42]

1ke,

Could you explain what the difference is between judging and fraternal correction? Perhaps a few examples? I get so confused if we as Catholics are supposed to admonish sinners but do it with love? I know the truth hurts but if we speak it we are offensive to others?

 

[FAB]

I know people who went down this route and still claim the name Catholic. Even some who live with their partners (objectively wrong) and go to mass receiving the Eucharist. I know we are not to judge anyone because we really don’t know the state of their souls. However, it seems that this ignorance is a free pass for them to do what they want to do because “no one” is allowed to judge them. Either they recongize this as a sin and are struggling to do right or they down right don’t care because they want to be happy with their partner.

My question though is what needs to be done with these people who want to be Catholic and remain in the Church? Take for example two fallen away Catholics who never got an annulment from their first marriage and get remarried by a JP. Now say down the line 15 years later they want to get right with God. They really love one another and want to come into communion with the Church. If an annulment is not granted are they required to separate or could they just live together making a commitment to God not to have sex? Most people I know probably wouldn’t separate if required because the thought of living alone on this earth is too much and now they are already in the mix of years of “love” with the other partner. Does it really come down to a matter of people ultimately choosing God or their partners in the end?

If the couple wants to find their way back to the Church it is best to seek out a preist of deacon to guide them. It is possible to straighten this road out but it will take time and patience on the account of all involved.

 

[WetCatechumen]

One of my (Protestant) Mother’s gripes with the Catholic Church that she told me about before I converted was that the Catholic Church “destroyed” the marriage of a friend of hers. A guy had lapsed, converted to my Mom’s Protestant sect, after having been married in the Catholic Church and divorced. He married a Protestant woman and he reverted and she converted. They had, I think, six children together - they separated because she was granted a decree of nullity concerning her previous marriage but he was discovered to be validly married.

She thought that doing this to be able to receive communion was ridiculous.

 

[1ke]

1ke,

Could you explain what the difference is between judging and fraternal correction? Perhaps a few examples? I get so confused if we as Catholics are supposed to admonish sinners but do it with love? I know the truth hurts but if we speak it we are offensive to others?

Here’s a good article:

blog.adw.org/2009/11/fraternal-correction-the-forgotten-virtue/

 

[FAB]

One of my (Protestant) Mother’s gripes with the Catholic Church that she told me about before I converted was that the Catholic Church “destroyed” the marriage of a friend of hers. A guy had lapsed, converted to my Mom’s Protestant sect, after having been married in the Catholic Church and divorced. He married a Protestant woman and he reverted and she converted. They had, I think, six children together - they separated because she was granted a decree of nullity concerning her previous marriage but he was discovered to be validly married.

She thought that doing this to be able to receive communion was ridiculous.

The rules on marriage and divorce in the Church are based in Scripture. It’s not suppose to be easy. Christ said if a man divorces his wife and remarries , he commits adultery, a mortal sin in any christian Church. The annulment process is to determine is a marriage was sacramental from the beginning. It is a process designed to make things right for the individual and with God.

 

[coco2]

I know someone who is suffering with this, as well. In her younger ( wilder) years she got pregnant by a divorced man. He tried to get his first marriage annulled but his ex-wife wouldn’t sign the papers. For the sake of her child, she married the guy I think at the courthouse. 20 plus years later, she is really worried. she wants to be married in the church. Their children have gone through Catholic school education K-12 and she has remained faithful in all ways but this. She is very involved in her church and she doesn’t want people to find this out, but she wants to make things right with God. I have no words to comfort her. Should she leave him? Break up her family? Go to confession, but continue living with him? I told her to go talk to a priest, but she is too afraid.

 

[dfp42]

Are people in this situation able to be in full communion with the church if they just confess this but go on dating or living with their partners? Are there exceptions? Sure they could live like brother and sister from now on, but it doesn’t seem right. I really always wondered this because I have many aunts and uncles that are living with their new partners and don’t see anything wrong with it and even if they did, they are still Catholics in communion with the church? Basically should they declare before taking the step of getting right with God that they might have to seperate if the church says so? I think that’s why most people won’t try for an annullment because they can’t fathom the chance that the church says they are wrong or need to seperate. Instead they just rationalize it away because the world sees nothing wrong with it and after all people who are catholic are doing it. If I was to ask why they are with their new lovers and hint at all to them that this is sinful they won’t buy it.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I know someone who is suffering with this, as well. In her younger ( wilder) years she got pregnant by a divorced man. He tried to get his first marriage annulled but his ex-wife wouldn’t sign the papers. For the sake of her child, she married the guy I think at the courthouse. 20 plus years later, she is really worried. she wants to be married in the church. Their children have gone through Catholic school education K-12 and she has remained faithful in all ways but this. She is very involved in her church and she doesn’t want people to find this out, but she wants to make things right with God. I have no words to comfort her. Should she leave him? Break up her family? Go to confession, but continue living with him? I told her to go talk to a priest, but she is too afraid.

One cannot be forgiven a sin if one intends to continue committing it, e.g. remain in an adulterous relationship.

That said the status of a particular case depends on many details. Such details do not belong on line, and we can’t give a definitive answer in any event. She needs to make an appointment with a priest and discuss it with him.

 

[1ke]

I know someone who is suffering with this, as well. In her younger ( wilder) years she got pregnant by a divorced man. He tried to get his first marriage annulled but his ex-wife wouldn’t sign the papers. For the sake of her child, she married the guy I think at the courthouse. 20 plus years later, she is really worried. she wants to be married in the church. Their children have gone through Catholic school education K-12 and she has remained faithful in all ways but this. She is very involved in her church and she doesn’t want people to find this out, but she wants to make things right with God. I have no words to comfort her. Should she leave him? Break up her family? Go to confession, but continue living with him? I told her to go talk to a priest, but she is too afraid.

Your friend should go talk to her priest. She needs to educate herself on nullity and the process. Her husband’s ability to petition for a decree of nullity is not dependent upon his ex’s participation. The nullity petition can still go forward. Sounds like maybe somewhere along the way they got bad information or made assumptions.

 

[1ke]

Are people in this situation able to be in full communion with the church if they just confess this but go on dating or living with their partners? Are there exceptions? Sure they could live like brother and sister from now on, but it doesn’t seem right.

See here.

Yes, there are pastoral options especially when children are involved.

I really always wondered this because I have many aunts and uncles that are living with their new partners and don’t see anything wrong with it and even if they did, they are still Catholics in communion with the church?

They are Catholics, their status in the Church depends. Those who are divorced and remarried cannot receive the sacraments. But, that does not mean they are outside the Church. Perhaps you don’t understand that people are Catholic by virtue of their baptism, and there isn’t anything that can make them “not” Catholic. They might be in an objective state of mortal sin, they might have separated themselves from the sacraments, but they are still very much Catholic. And, we and the priest should help them to reconcile with the Church.

 

[dfp42]

I’m sorry for my confusion. I guess I have a hard time with the thinking that all Catholics are equally the same. In other words, if they are indeed Catholic then it might seem to make no difference what they say or do since they are Catholic. In this mentality doesn’t it seem to send off the wrong messages to them or those who are Catholic and strive to do what the church teaches to be true. For example someone who is Catholic but pro choice, or a person who is Catholic but does everything in contradiction to what the Church teaches. Is it right to say, yes they are Catholic but not a good Catholic? Is there a difference between being a certain type of Catholic? I admit it hurts very much when those who we look up to and should know better do the opposite. I’ve seen a major lose of the faith in my own family and I don’t think I’ll ever have the reason why or what exactly happened. It’s sad and truly hurts.

 

[1ke]

I’m sorry for my confusion. I guess I have a hard time with the thinking that all Catholics are equally the same. In other words, if they are indeed Catholic then it might seem to make no difference what they say or do since they are Catholic.

There are Catholics in hell, I am sure.

Remember, Baptism regenerates us from Original Sin, gives sanctifying grace, and incorporates us into the Body of Christ-- the Church. We are members of God’s family by baptism. You can’t ever do anything that makes you “not” a son or daughter of God. You can leave the family, you can reject the family, but you are still family. Forever. Even when you sin mortally and go to Hell. Until your dieing breath there is the possibility of reconciliation with God through the sacrament of Confession. There is always hope that a sinner will repent. But, if they don’t, then they go to Hell.

In this mentality doesn’t it seem to send off the wrong messages to them or those who are Catholic and strive to do what the church teaches to be true. For example someone who is Catholic but pro choice, or a person who is Catholic but does everything in contradiction to what the Church teaches. Is it right to say, yes they are Catholic but not a good Catholic?

That they are Catholic is a fact. That they are wrong or living an objectively sinful life may also be a fact. We, as fellow brothers and sisters, try to help them see where they are wrong and try to help them reconcile with the Church. We may or may not succeed, but it’s our job to try.

Is there a difference between being a certain type of Catholic? I admit it hurts very much when those who we look up to and should know better do the opposite. I’ve seen a major lose of the faith in my own family and I don’t think I’ll ever have the reason why or what exactly happened. It’s sad and truly hurts.

Well, there certainly is a big difference between a Catholic in Heaven and a Catholic in Hell.

 

[ProVobis]

I know people who went down this route and still claim the name Catholic. Even some who live with their partners (objectively wrong) and go to mass receiving the Eucharist. I know we are not to judge anyone because we really don’t know the state of their souls. However, it seems that this ignorance is a free pass for them to do what they want to do because “no one” is allowed to judge them. Either they recongize this as a sin and are struggling to do right or they down right don’t care because they want to be happy with their partner.

I guess it’s not for us to judge them but they still should be encouraged to attend Mass. So many feel they have to receive at every Mass they attend. This is not so. Attending Mass is a good habit and a good example and over time it should eventually bring one to full communion.

 

[goodnews2]

This is my first post and question. I read the above thread, and it’s states that if one is living in a state of mortal sin, i.e. remarried civilly after divorce, they may not receive the sacraments. Does that include reconciliation? How can one repent, if they cannot make a confession through the sacrament of reconciliation? If the married couple live as brother and sister until a nulled marriage occurs, does that qualify for repentence. What if an annulled marriage cannot be achieved? If there are children involved, must they too decline the sacraments? When one registers as a church member, is there a section that asks if there is a divorce, thus indicating the children are the result of a marriage not recognized by the church? So what does that mean for the children/ Many questions which I have not been successful in finding the answer on the site. Thanks for your support in answering my question.

 

[stormy99]

I know people who went down this route and still claim the name Catholic. Even some who live with their partners (objectively wrong) and go to mass receiving the Eucharist. I know we are not to judge anyone because we really don’t know the state of their souls. However, it seems that this ignorance is a free pass for them to do what they want to do because “no one” is allowed to judge them. Either they recongize this as a sin and are struggling to do right or they down right don’t care because they want to be happy with their partner.

My question though is what needs to be done with these people who want to be Catholic and remain in the Church? Take for example two fallen away Catholics who never got an annulment from their first marriage and get remarried by a JP. Now say down the line 15 years later they want to get right with God. They really love one another and want to come into communion with the Church. If an annulment is not granted are they required to separate or could they just live together making a commitment to God not to have sex? Most people I know probably wouldn’t separate if required because the thought of living alone on this earth is too much and now they are already in the mix of years of “love” with the other partner. Does it really come down to a matter of people ultimately choosing God or their partners in the end?

**They can choose to live together without sex…however, their first marriages should be declared invalid by the Marriage Tribunal…it would be better that way.

stormy**

 

[hansard]

There are Catholics in hell, I am sure.

Not knowing the state of anyone’s soul at death, how can you be sure of this?

 

[puzzleannie]

I
My question though is what needs to be done with these people who want to be Catholic and remain in the Church? ?

the US bishops have addressed this concern by dedicating this current catechetical year to Matrimony-sacrament of enduring love and urging pastors and catechetical leaders to emphasize teaching on the sacramental nature of marriage in the context of the Church and unity with Christ, and making efforts to invite those with any irregular situation to be welcomed and assisted to regularize that circumstance.

They couple begins by setting up an inteview with the priest or deacon to lay out all the facts of their situation, they receive pastoral care including sacramental confession as appropriate, are assisted with investigating any past marriages to determine validity and their own current options, and when possible, in convalidating the present union in the Church. That includes pastoral care, counselling, marriage preparation and all other assistance available to couples and families, suited to the needs of that particular couple.

The individual Catholic involved in a union with a person who is not interested in complying with Catholic thouht on marriage is assisted pastorally, as an individual, to find solutions to their moral dilemma, while regarding practical matters such as finances and most especially, care for any children involved.

There is always a remedy for any situation.
Rarely does finding that remedy follow a time plan dictated by either party to the relationship or by pastors, but is guided, when he is invited to be present, by the Holy Spirit.

What if an annulled marriage cannot be achieved? If there are children involved, must they too decline the sacraments? When one registers as a church member, is there a section that asks if there is a divorce, thus indicating the children are the result of a marriage not recognized by the church? .

this completely misstates Catholic teaching on the status of children of unmarried persons or those in irregular unions.

If you want individual answers to the individuals disparate issues you raise, search for past threads on those topics: divorce, annulment etc (none of which effects the status of children). Where did you get the idea that the church does not “recognize” children of those whose parents are not validly married?

You or I as a parishioner in the pew cannot judge the state of the soul of anyone receiving communion. That perogative belongs to God alone, and as excercised by the priest in the private forum (confession). You do not and cannot know all the facts of the situation. If it were easy to look at any relationship or family from the outside and know all the facts, there would be no need for a formal investigation of their status. Annulment proceedings are private and remain so for good reason.

If someone approaches you personally with a question of information, refer them to their pastor.

 

[ProVobis]

You or I as a parishioner in the pew cannot judge the state of the soul of anyone receiving communion.

This is true, we can’t. But when we hear these people openly flaunting their illicit status while receiving, that’s at least scandal, which should give us a cause for concern about the type of culture that’s created inside a parish community. I don’t see the pride in 100% reception of communion while confession lines are practically empty. There can’t be that many saints there.

You’ll find a different culture in the Spanish or Polish communities. They have much higher attendance figures while number of those receiving communion are less than 50%. Apparently they know when not to receive and that in itself is a very important part of proper catechisis.